S Times article on cages

[wymberley]

I'm a member of the BASC; the reason? It covers me in terms of my shooting for insurance purposes. I shoot over farmland for the purposes of pest control, and maybe once a year (if I'm really lucky) I get invited on a driven pheasant shoot. I have no vested interests; I'm not ordinarily pro this or anti that. I have my own views and opinions and it takes empirical (look it up in the dictionary) evidence to persuade me that my view may not be the right/best/correct one. My point? I'm not blindly biased towards supporting the BASC's view on this (or any other) subject.

 

HOWEVER......

 

I'm also a member of Joe Public. Imagine for a moment I'm speaking purely from this perspective (i.e I know NOTHING about shooting, pheasant rearing or the game industry in general). The concept of rearing 'wild' birds in cages for a minority to go and blast 'em to hell AND pay enormous sums for the privilege is perverse.

 

This view that will be extremely difficult to change in the mind of Joe Public and even more so if publications and bodies who are meant to work together to provide the evidence to balance Joe's blindly biased view are seen to be at odds with each other in such a divisive way.

 

The reality is the cage rearing of birds is NOT good for our sport. It smacks of commercialism and big business and 'out to make a buck' whoever or whatever has to suffer for it, and all the fat cat, back scratching and profiteering that is associated with it. We as shooters will be the poorer for it. The birds will suffer because of it (how anybody can argue that cage rearing is OK is personally beyond me).

 

I believe that what the BASC is trying to achieve are minimum standards which can be applied to the production of pheasants in the UK and to ensure those standards comply with what we all surely believe must be the case; that there should be a reasonable amount of living space associated with individual birds, and that this space is aligned in some way to their natural behaviour, so as to minimise stress and ultimately mortality rates.

 

In the end, what would you rather shoot and eat? A bird who's origins are cage derived? I sincerely hope not.

 

The voice of reason.

PS I didn't have to, but did when I first read Burrard!

[Simon Clarke]

Christopher Graffius comments:

 

I think it would help if Al4x told us his relationship to Bettws Hall. I assume this is the same Bettws Hall that on its website does not show pictures of cages when it talks about its game farming operation, one of whose gamekeepers was convicted for killing raptors and badgers and against whom complaints have been made of massive overstocking on the biggest commercial shoots? If it is, then we were refused permission to visit when we asked to go as part of our research into cages.

 

I’ve looked at one of the largest cage users in the UK and visited cage users in France to compare their practice.

 

Enrichment is a red herring and mere window dressing. There are obvious benefits to raising pens off the ground – and there are raised pens in France which give more space than cages – because the droppings fall through the mesh. This advantage is much reduced by enrichment because the astro-turf required by the Game Farmers’ Association stops the droppings falling through – hence the power hosing to clean them. Ray Holden at Hy-Fly – who has always been open about his operations – won’t enrich his cages because he considers enrichment to be a bio-security risk. As a result I believe that none of the Game farmers using cages are currently members of the GFA because they can’t or won’t comply with their prescriptions for enrichment. As these will be written into the code of practice if Option 2 wins the day I wonder why the cage users aren’t attacking the GFA as well as BASC?

 

 

By the way it might also help to know that the French have 2000+ gamefarmers, 25 of whom are using cages often with pen systems alongside. It’s therefore impossible to know if a bird that originated in France came from a cage or not. In the UK we have around 300 game farms with 3 using cages, mostly again with pen systems alongside. Why are there so many more game farms in France when they don’t have any driven shooting to speak of? Because their climate is perfect for game farming; something we won’t change in the UK unless global warming is true and only then by the end of the century.

 

 

I also note that Jonathon Crowe of Wrekin Game Ltd, the chairman of the Game Farmers' Association is currently advertising in Shooting Times and making a virtue of the fact that all his pheasant eggs are laid on grass. Some irony, eh?

[al4x]

I'm no link at all to Bettwys Hall, and really sounds like they need attention.

 

It has to be said that The Game Farmers association is pretty scathing of BASC and makes an interesting and informed read

http://www.gfa.org.uk/gfa-news/10/

[Pinkfooty]

Given the very biased slant given by Shooting Times, I think they need to hear, in mass, from three groups:

 

1. Game shooters who would rather pay a bit more for their birds than carry on in the knowledge that their low prices were subsidised by inhumane rearing practices.

 

2. Wildfowlers and pigeon shooters, who are worried that inhumane rearing practices in the game shooting sector will lead to further general public opposition to the entire shooting spectrum.

 

3. Those many small game farmers who are bound to be put out of business if they continue to face competition from a small handful of large operators who can cut costs by using inhumane rearing methods.

 

It seems to me that only BASC is thinking about the long-term future of shooting sports while the other organisations have been blinkered by those who are chasing short-term profits.

 

So get writing to Shooting Times lads.

[Simon Clarke]

I'm no link at all to Bettwys Hall, and really sounds like they need attention.

 

It has to be said that The Game Farmers association is pretty scathing of BASC and makes an interesting and informed read

http://www.gfa.org.uk/gfa-news/10/

 

 

Christopher Graffius comments:

 

Yes I found the GFA response fascinating reading. I can say that after some twenty-six years involvement with politics I’ve never read a consultation response like it. It could be summarised as “do what we want or we’ll bill you and/or sue you”. Not the ideal approach for winning a sympathetic audience and persuading Ministers. In contrast BASC’s response did not slag off other organisations but kept strictly to the questions asked. You can read our response here and our view of the impact assessment is here

 

 

My comments on the substance of the GFA response are:

 

It’s wrong for the GFA to claim that Option 2 would prevent all bad practice, such as keeping birds in cages that are too small. Option 2 says nothing about size. Merely that a cage must be enriched in unidentified ways. That’s why Option 2 is ineffectual and represents business as usual – it suits the three battery cage users.

It’s misleading for the GFA to say that Option 3 would stop all use of cages however good their design, management and welfare … and end all partridge egg production in England. That is only true if a perversely unlikely definition of cages is chosen by the government – which would fly in the face of their declared support for game rearing.

The GFA scaremonger with illusory threats to traditional partridge rearers, when no one else is threatening them. They exaggerate the number of farms that could be affected, based on the extremely dodgy impact assessment which was itself written on information supplied by the GFA and nobody else.

It’s wholly wrong to suggest Option 3 would end the use of raised units for pheasants – “even those of the largest and best enriched designs and irrespective of their welfare merits”. Again that would require a perverse definition of a cage and fly in the face of government policy.

Their summary of FAWC’s position is tendentious and misleading. They need to read the report again! It said that there was no evidence that enrichment made any difference, and that barren cages compromised the welfare of the birds.

Their allegations about the destruction of partridge and pheasant shooting are off the scale for fantasy.

 

I could go on, but it would be tedious. Suffice to say that I wouldn’t trust their arguments as far as I could throw them. It’s the hysteria and the alarmism that undermines their case and from what I know of the attitudes of Defra Ministers and advisers – and I’ve been working with them for eight years - they will be equally unimpressed.

[al4x]

blimey we've even got a link from the James Marchington blog now must be priviledged

[MC]

Although im no longer in the pheasant game, i would say from working with both traditional pheasant laying pens as well as a small number of raised laying cages, i would say that i no slightly more than nothing. and as for having a pop at BASC.... you rose to the bait just as i expected!

 

Personally i dont see the need for BASC going all public and calling out for an all out ban on cages. Why not work behind the scenes with the GFA and work something out. Thats reason one why i think basc has put a nail in the coffin. Reason 2 is them using anti photos, and even their own photos that show only the worst.

 

I personally prefur the use of traditional laying pens for pheasants but in no way are they perfect for the birds. and in some cases they are worse than raised cages! In most laying pens the birds will be 'brailed' which stops them from opening one wing, so not asif they have total freedom. Also, depending on what cock-hen ratio is used, most laying hens end up totally battered and in very poor condition. In wet weather, the ground becomes muddy and the birds end up covered in mud and ****.... But obviously none of this is shown in BASC's pictures of traditional laying pens, because they only want to show the pictures of laying hens on fresh grass with plenty of space!

 

I think you will find that it is the Shooting Times that has gone public, BASC seems to have been on the case for several years.

 

What happens to the bottom of a release pen when it rains? What happens to the ground in general when it rains? It is known as nature and wildlife in general is designed to cope. It is not natural for the birds to be cooped up in a small cage where they cannot even perch properly and by the looks of the mesh on the floors of those cages they can hardly walk on them properly.

[JRS]

i think this topic has been done to death and i can only assume that david from BASC tried to pre-empt the shooting times by bringing this topic onto a public forum and trying to claim some moral high ground which has not gone the way that they wanted

 

pity the same names are not talking to the shooting times like they are talking here , one thing is certain and that is that BASC seem to have scored a home goal because they obviously did not get the support they thought they might

like i said before this has only caused divisions

[Sinistercr0c]

I suspect you'll find JRS that its more a case of apathy from the silent majority who have no particular interest where or how the birds they shoot are sourced/reared.

 

It was the same with the hunting ban until it was too late. If those who's lives and livliehoods were affected were able to turn the clock back to before the ban came into force, I suspect they would have been far more vociferous in voicing their views on the matter and getting the support and backing of the relevant decision making bodies to work/vote the way they wanted.

 

Whilst it may take a number of years, if the proposals go though in such a way as to work in purely money making terms (i.e to the detritment of the birds overall welfare) then I suspect at some point we will see momentum gather to ban pheasant shooting completely due to the way the process of rearing them is seen to work.

 

IF this happens, then the silent majority will have no cause to complain, because it is they that will have allowed it, no-one else.

[Mungler]

I suspect you'll find JRS that its more a case of apathy from the silent majority who have no particular interest where or how the birds they shoot are sourced/reared.

 

It was the same with the hunting ban until it was too late. If those who's lives and livliehoods were affected were able to turn the clock back to before the ban came into force, I suspect they would have been far more vociferous in voicing their views on the matter and getting the support and backing of the relevant decision making bodies to work/vote the way they wanted.

 

Whilst it may take a number of years, if the proposals go though in such a way as to work in purely money making terms (i.e to the detritment of the birds overall welfare) then I suspect at some point we will see momentum gather to ban pheasant shooting completely due to the way the process of rearing them is seen to work.

 

IF this happens, then the silent majority will have no cause to complain, because it is they that will have allowed it, no-one else.

 

 

 

 

Indeed.

 

I would repeat my earlier question to those in the know - was this a live issue and likely to legislated over i.e. forced reforms?

 

If the consensus was that the government was going to step in and force a reform, then "calling it early" and self reforming is a good play.

 

If not, then a big public row over an issue that was in fact not an issue until about 2 weeks ago when it was detonated in the press just seems a bit daft to me, especially when there are other and more pressing animal husbandry issues that BASC could look at reforming.

 

Yours patiently waiting for an answer......

[jamesmarchington]

blimey we've even got a link from the James Marchington blog now must be priviledged

 

Yup, and on press day too!

 

Seriously though, this is an important issue that goes right to the heart of whether we retain the public 'licence to operate'.

[MC]

Welcome to Pigeonwatch James,

 

Have you come to contribute to this debate? What is your personal stance on this hot topic?

[David BASC]

Based on the feedback on this forum, and PM's and phone calls i have had, the conversations i have had with game farmers it seems clear to me that the vast majority are opposed to these large scale, small metal cages for mass egg production, and in my view rightly so, as I canot see why any of you would want our sport associated with this sort of thing.

 

Of course there are those who will think differently, but in a democracy the majority will win

 

The GFA and chums seem keen to keep small cages available to use ( although hardly any if any of their members use them ) all be it with astro turf and a perch fitted - and BASC are sticking to the position that a small cage is a small cage astro turf or not - hence our call for minimum floor space for breeding birds. It seems the GFA and co cannot or will not move on minimum sizes , I don't know why.so we are at an impass

 

Cages have been a live issue for a few years, and the consultation that has just closed is the last evidence and view gathering excercise prior to formal decision making.

 

BASC made its submission to the open consultation as did the GFA et al- all quiet on the Western Front....untill the CA and GFA decided to send a press styatement out last week stiring up interest in the ST ranks... Could it have been kept 'behind closed doors'? Yes up to a point if the GFA and CA had not issued their press statement i guess ST would not have run the story. But what is done is done and we cannot wind the clock back.

 

Well now the consultation is closed and we await the result, as has been mentioned it will be interesting to see if the ministers are going to submit to threat of being sent a bill or taken to court , but I doubt it don't you?

 

Regardless of what is decided by government about the use of these smalll cages I hope the GFA, NGO, CA et all will join BASC in actively encouraging their members to buy local, from traditional British game farmers- after all why wouldn't they? :unsure:

 

David

[toka_shigazu]

as someone who has never shot on a game shoot, just rough walked up so to speak all i can comment on is the public perception. living on the edge of a town, in an area where there are only a few shoots nearby and most arent well known about i have heard a lot of talk from local townies, most bought about by programs like 'kill it cook it eat it'.

 

as some on here say it is the perception of the majority [joe public] that may swing this eventually. most people i know and have heard think eating game is ok...as long as they are killed in the same manner shown on the named program, stunned, bled etc...humanely!! the thought that birds are reared for the express purpose of being shot, sometimes left in the field as shooter sometimes dont want them etc is to most fairly repugnant. if we it can be shown that the yare at least reared in the most caring way that may go a long way to appeasing most joe public.

 

should the hunting act finally go do we not think that the likes of lacs etc will then look to the likes of this and/or fishing under an unnecessary cruelty banner. they may even endorse rearing birds properly as long as they are killed humanely in a slaughterhouse...where would that leave us?? if we can show a clean bill of health now then we are at least trying to sort it out before this and gain a bit of support.

 

as for doing things in public or private...having had similar dealings with the press i would say that as issues like this crop up they will always sensationalise and publish to sell...it is expected, i am sure everything was being done in the back ground to try to sort things but when it gets to this level with so many big players and so much opposition by normally 'onside' groups it is bound to be jumped on by the press sooner or later. similar happened in the advert portraying shooters as children killers last year...i think then BASC tried to 'fix' it but werent given the chance prior to publishing...that is the press.

 

I just hope that it doesnt cause a prolonged division and that some kind of resolution can be found.

 

i think with the EDM having been raised, usually this is kept under the radar so to speak but when it attracts this much attention you can never tell if the government will pick up the ball and run with it so to speak...better to try to nip in the bud...

 

anyway my thoughts....please correct me if i am wrong and i hope this isnt going to be the trend for the year ahead as we are only just half way through january!!

 

ATB

[jamesmarchington]

Welcome to Pigeonwatch James,

 

Have you come to contribute to this debate? What is your personal stance on this hot topic?

 

Thanks - I've occasionally browsed through to see what are the latest hot topics, but I thought it was time I joined in!

 

This is a difficult one and no mistake. Not least because, not having any real experience of pheasant breeding/rearing, I find the descriptions of the various systems rather confusing (and of course everyone talks up the worst aspects of the system they're arguing against). Actually, I used to help my dad with a few hundred birds he reared up from day-olds at home, but that was 30 years ago and more!

 

I'm in two minds about washing our dirty linen in public. These things need to be debated, but it bothers me to hear respected names in the sport/industry/call it what you will, using language that I just know will appear in the next masterpiece from numpties like Kit Davidson of Animal Aid.

 

Personally (and I do mean personally, this is nothing to do with the magazine) I gaze into the crystal ball and find it hard to see driven shooting as we know it now still being around in 10 or 20 years time. Like it or not, I think we'll have gone all Ray Mears, hunting wild birds with our eco-friendly non-lead, low emission cartridges, and rushing off to the Department of Natural Resources to fill in our bag report, or enter the draw for another deer tag. Or have I just been hitting the sloe gin a bit too hard?

 

There's no doubt it's the urban majority that calls the shots these days, and trust me they will not turn their backs and say, sure you look like you know what you're doing, just carry on - the antis will make sure of that. Town-dwellers are not all anti-shooting by any means, and they do like their burgers, but they do expect to see it done responsibly and transparently. And I believe that, sooner or later, cages will have to go.

 

Which I guess means I have more in common with BASC's stance on this one. I'll admit I sometimes find their tone of voice a touch authoritarian (sorry David, Simon), but on this occasion I'm finding the game farming interests are coming across downright boorish.

 

I'm trying to separate out, in my mind, my views on the argument itself versus the way the different parties have argued their case. Underneath all the bluster there's a real issue of 'right' and 'wrong' here. But each time someone uses an argument that rankles, I find it harder to see the wood for the trees.

 

I seem to have used a lot of words to say not a lot, but this is a very complicated issue. If nothing else, I take heart from the fact that we're all getting so passionate about it, because that means we care - about the birds, and about our sport.

[Mungler]

James, thank you for that inciteful summary of your views, and welcome to pigeon watch.

[Blackbart]

I think you will find that it is the Shooting Times that has gone public, BASC seems to have been on the case for several years.

 

What happens to the bottom of a release pen when it rains? What happens to the ground in general when it rains? It is known as nature and wildlife in general is designed to cope. It is not natural for the birds to be cooped up in a small cage where they cannot even perch properly and by the looks of the mesh on the floors of those cages they can hardly walk on them properly.

 

NO.....I think you will find that BASC went public first on this issue in a big way by appearing on news at ten a few year ago using animal aid(i think)undercover footage of a game farm using cage systems and it was reported that Basc had teamed up with the anti's(news at ten sensationalism).but nonetheless very public condemnation of gamefarming.

 

 

Like i said before i agree with the principal of the cages being wrong but would it not be better to do this EU wide and thus give a flatter playing field so to speak to the rest of the british gamefarmers who have higher costs doing things the "right way" rather than give our french friends a helping hand and yet again making things harder for british suppliers like our government does on so many things to do with farming of any kind.

[Sinistercr0c]

Blackbart, you raise an excellent point. I would prefer it if our own government banned the import of eggs/poults from outside the UK unless it could be proven that those same eggs/poults had been produced to our own (infinately better) animal welfare standards. Could it be argued under existing UK laws to the EU I wonder...... :unsure:

 

It would depend of course on the British Government having a spine.......thus it would never happen.....

[Pinkfooty]

James, thank you for that inciteful summary of your views, and welcome to pigeon watch.

 

 

Sometime a real beauty appears.

 

I think you meant "insightful". Or maybe you actually did mean "inciteful".

 

 

 

 

:unsure:

 

 

 

.

[wymberley]

Blackbart, you raise an excellent point. I would prefer it if our own government banned the import of eggs/poults from outside the UK unless it could be proven that those same eggs/poults had been produced to our own (infinately better) animal welfare standards. Could it be argued under existing UK laws to the EU I wonder...... :unsure:

 

It would depend of course on the British Government having a spine.......thus it would never happen.....

Don't see why it shouldn't happen: After all, try and buy an English King Edward potato (younger members may well not know what on earth that is) in France!

Cheers

[David BASC]

Sorry BB I should have been clearer, I was responding to posts that were suggesting that BASC had stoked up the most recent reports and comments in ST, where as it was the press statement from GFA / CA that ST had reacted to (and then BASC reacted to that!)

 

AL sent the footage to the TV in November 2004, and the TV showed the AL footage and BASC were asked to comment on it – not sure at the time if the GFA, CA, NGO were asked by the telly.

 

Yes the media may well sensationalise as you put it and there has never been any suggestion of BASC teaming up with the antis or saying game farming is cruel!

 

As I have said, we made our position on the small mass egg production cages clear, and our support for the local traditional farmers right from the off and that the traditional partridge boxes were NOT an issue at all as far as were were concerned.

 

Yes it would be perfect if cages were banned all over the EU, but at the end of the day it is a question of supply and demand isn’t it?

 

Regardless of what the French or any one else does, if UK shoots buy from local traditional UK game farmers, then the UK game farming industry will not be damaged by what ever the French farmers are doing. The French will not import if there is no market demand – hence the BASC campaign to buy local!

 

Hope you all support this

 

David

Edited January 21, 2010 by David BASC

[al4x]

The stupid bit about this is that everyone is in agreement that small cages should be banned, so why are the BASC using that as the centre point of their campaign along with the anti's photos.

However as George says there are shortcomings with traditional set ups particularly in our climate and MC the birds don't cope with it and aren't adapted to it. Yes release pens get muddy but in the worst weather you get serious disease problems from them walking in their own droppings all the time and thats why you have to use medicated pellets and dose them up on antibiotics as otherwise they drop like flies. Thats where the recommended spacings came from its related to the amount of space required to minimise the problem. Which is why the raised cages have been used, I'm guessing the low roofs on them are so when people approach they don't get room to jump up and damage themselves on the top they are after all wild birds. Which comes down to the real crux of the sizes used aren't acceptable so what can be done to improve things, obviously bigger pens will help but only so far as most of the damage to hens is done by the cock bird but without a cock in there its a bit useless. It needs a properly funded research programme probably from someone in the poultry industry to design something new thats acceptable to all. Saying we want to ban cage use but we want to say what a cage is is verging on foolhardy with our government, look at rearing pens and see what density they usually hold birds at couldn't they be counted as cages they have a roof and sides and lots of birds in and certainly there is no way anyone could have one bird per metre as most I've seen hold upwards of 50 young birds.

My main thing is the whole sound of the argument sounds exactly like something from LACS rather than a well thought out discussion on what is best for bird welfare and what the industry can do realistically bearing in mind why farmers have tried these systems. If the existing was so good they wouldn't have changed. I also think discord amongst everyone just highlights Game shooting and what accompanies it, its fine saying we want to be whiter than white but the public is less worried about pheasants being bred and more worried about Toffs in rangerovers blasting 1000 a day

[Simon Clarke]

The stupid bit about this is that everyone is in agreement that small cages should be banned, so why are the BASC using that as the centre point of their campaign along with the anti's photos.

 

I think you'll find the whole point of the ST article, and indeed this debate, which has been going on for five years is "shock and outrage" that NOT everyone has the same view. The GFA, CA etc want to keep small cages, with enrichment.

 

The antis took the issue to the media, not BASC, and no-one has appeared on News at Ten on the issue. In fact the mainstream media has shown relatively little interest in this. In 2005 there were articles in the Guardian and the Telegraph and an item on countryfile. If this had been taken up more widely, this debate would, by now, be redundant.

 

BASC is keen to encourage open debate in the shooting world on the subject, and to make game shooters aware of the problems. That is our job. We are also keen to see unbiased representations of our position, which do not rely on ridiculous allegations such as it being somehow a bad thing to lobby Labour MPs to influence a Labour government . The continued use of battery cages is the most direct threat I can see to the future of driven game shooting. The public and politicians will not support them and their continued use threatens restrictions on the whole game shooting process.

 

In 2005, after we had undertaken our own extensive research into the use of cages, both here and in France, we called a meeting of the game farmers association and other organisations to attempt to seek agreement. No agreement was forthcoming. This remains the case and we have repeatedly been accused of "airing the dirty linen in public". Make no mistake, that linen was and is on view to the world already. To make no attempt to address the issue would be a dereliction of our duty to attempt to safeguard the future of shooting.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Simon Clarke

[al4x]

So this part of the GFA response isn't related to small cages? Its a minefield but done with now so we shall see what comes out of it. Hopefully nothing that affects things too badly

 

Our Comments on the Cage Options

 

The only remaining area of uncertainty in the draft code concerns raised laying cages. Defra offers three options on these. We strongly support Option 2.

 

Option 2 (that small barren cages should not be used) was the recommendation of the independent experts of the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) following their 2008 investigation, the most thorough the industry has ever undergone. This investigation was commissioned by Defra specifically to inform the drafting of the code and in particular its section on cages. No good reason has been given for ignoring FAWC’s advice.

Edited January 21, 2010 by al4x

[David BASC]

Yes, there does seem no doubt that all the people who have responded to the consultation and the other evidence gathering exercises say the small barren cages should be banned.

 

Yes, we all agree that traditional partridge boxes should be left as they are.

 

I am sure we all agree that UK shoots should buy from UK game farmers.

 

However, as I have said keeping a small cage, but adding Astroturf and a perch does not make any difference to the size of the cage, and as reported, the people that use cages typically refuse to add Astroturf as it creates a bio-hazard.

 

We want to see a minimum size for birds kept in confinement for egg production that fulfils the 5 needs under the Animal Welfare Act.

 

By all means tell me what you or anyone else disagrees with regarding the content of our response to the consultation, have a read and let me know.

 

David