FAC shotgun?

[Dafid69]

On 06/11/2024 at 15:16, Scully said:

Crack on then! 👍

I’m aware Canadas can be classed as a pest species and as such can be shot out of season, and was aware you could use a rifle ( which is S1 of course ) but wasn’t aware a S1 shotgun could be used.
Did you ask why it’s illegal to shoot all other species classed as game with a S1 shotgun? 
As far as I know it’s all to do with ‘sporting’ shots, but it would be good to get a definitive. 

Sorry for the delay. You can shoot all game with a section 1 shotgun that you would also use a section 2 on. Mainly avian. It comes down to what type of projectile is appropriate for each quarry not the quantity the weapon contains.

I would use a section 1 rifle (308 5.56 for example) for deer but not a section 1 shotgun.

Basically a sec 1 or 2 shotgun can be used for the same thing when hunting.

Logical thinking would confirm that a 2 or 10 shot shotgun with the same ammo has no difference apart from cartridge quantity. Therefore has exactly the same effect no matter which is used. 

 

 

On 06/11/2024 at 15:30, eightlittlebits said:

Did they give the justification as to the exemption from the Wildlife and Countryside Act? I would guess it's as a pest under GL41 allowing semi-automatic S1 shotguns?

Yeh at BASC she said it's GL 41 or 42 I think it's 42 last I looked. Like other GLs no need to apply just follow the rules.

[Scully]

32 minutes ago, Dafid69 said:

Sorry for the delay. You can shoot all game with a section 1 shotgun that you would also use a section 2 on. Mainly avian. It comes down to what type of projectile is appropriate for each quarry not the quantity the weapon contains.

I would use a section 1 rifle (308 5.56 for example) for deer but not a section 1 shotgun.

Basically a sec 1 or 2 shotgun can be used for the same thing when hunting.

Logical thinking would confirm that a 2 or 10 shot shotgun with the same ammo has no difference apart from cartridge quantity. Therefore has exactly the same effect no matter which is used. 

Where are you getting your info’ from? I think you’re getting confused between what is logical, and what is law, and one has very little to do with the other in the UK. 
For a start, .308 is more or less 7.62, and 5.56 is .22. 
Also it is very much everything to do with magazine capacity which differentiates a S1 shotgun from a S2, nothing else does! 
Also, you may be getting confused with the GL’s and exemptions for ‘avian pest species’. 
You cannot use a S1semi automatic shotgun to shoot game in the UK, not even if you just load two cartridges in a five shot magazine; the gun is still a S1 by definition in law. 

[Dafid69]

On 19/11/2024 at 19:32, Scully said:

Where are you getting your info’ from? I think you’re getting confused between what is logical, and what is law, and one has very little to do with the other in the UK. 
For a start, .308 is more or less 7.62, and 5.56 is .22. 
Also it is very much everything to do with magazine capacity which differentiates a S1 shotgun from a S2, nothing else does! 
Also, you may be getting confused with the GL’s and exemptions for ‘avian pest species’. 
You cannot use a S1semi automatic shotgun to shoot game in the UK, not even if you just load two cartridges in a five shot magazine; the gun is still a S1 by definition in law. 

Yeh sorry got my calibres mixed up.

 

Got my info from BASC firearms who actually worked for Cheshire police up to last year in the firearms department. That's how I know s1 shotty is legal to use on Canada goose

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Dafid69 said:

Yeh sorry got my calibres mixed up.

 

Got my info from BASC firearms who actually worked for Cheshire police up to last year in the firearms department. That's how I know s1 shotty is legal to use on Canada goose

It can be overwhelmingly confusing at times, and you’re not alone. 
Here’s a prime example: You can use your S1 shotgun to shoot Canada geese as part of ‘pest control’ carried out under specific conditions of specific GL’s, but you cannot use it to shoot geese ( Canadas or otherwise ) as part of normal wildfowling activities. Nor can you shoot ducks with it, nor pheasant, partridge, grouse, woodcock, snipe or any other ‘game’ bird. 
You can use it to shoot pigeons however, and various other avian pest species but again only under GL conditions. You can also use it to shoot rabbits. Can’t recall whether you can use it to shoot Hare, but as it’s classed as ‘game’ in England, probably not. 🤷‍♂️

Here’s something to bear in mind however, and don’t misunderstand me as I’m a big fan of S1 shotguns. In real life scenarios, if you empty your 10 shot magazine at whatever, by the time you’ve reloaded to capacity, chances are your quarry has boogered off, so what happens is you start using it like a S2; quickly reloading two or three rounds at most simply to get off more shots. 
In real terms a sxs or OU ejector has a higher rate of fire than a S1 shotgun ( and possibly a S2 ) if both are reloaded to capacity. Perhaps a customised purpose built Practical ‘race’ gun would possibly be faster but I have no experience of those so who knows? 🤷‍♂️
This is one of the reasons you rarely if ever see a self loading shotgun in use at a flush. 
I am more than happy to be corrected on any of the above regarding law, as I find it confusing also. 

Edited November 22 by Scully

[Dafid69]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

It can be overwhelmingly confusing at times, and you’re not alone. 
Here’s a prime example: You can use your S1 shotgun to shoot Canada geese as part of ‘pest control’ carried out under specific conditions of specific GL’s, but you cannot use it to shoot geese ( Canadas or otherwise ) as part of normal wildfowling activities. Nor can you shoot ducks with it, nor pheasant, partridge, grouse, woodcock, snipe or any other ‘game’ bird. 
You can use it to shoot pigeons however, and various other avian pest species but again only under GL conditions. You can also use it to shoot rabbits. Can’t recall whether you can use it to shoot Hare, but as it’s classed as ‘game’ in England, probably not. 🤷‍♂️

Here’s something to bear in mind however, and don’t misunderstand me as I’m a big fan of S1 shotguns. In real life scenarios, if you empty your 10 shot magazine at whatever, by the time you’ve reloaded to capacity, chances are your quarry has boogered off, so what happens is you start using it like a S2; quickly reloading two or three rounds at most simply to get off more shots. 
In real terms a sxs or OU ejector has a higher rate of fire than a S1 shotgun ( and possibly a S2 ) if both are reloaded to capacity. Perhaps a customised purpose built Practical ‘race’ gun would possibly be faster but I have no experience of those so who knows? 🤷‍♂️
This is one of the reasons you rarely if ever see a self loading shotgun in use at a flush. 
I am more than happy to be corrected on any of the above regarding law, as I find it confusing also. 

Yep we do have some quirky laws that don't always make sense. I'm guessing most shooters won't admit to anyone in here if they shoot a game bird with an incorrect calibre or load or rule of thumb s1 or s2 weapon. I bet more than 90% of shooters have done.

But keep that to yourselves.

Funnily enough I've just seen a bolt action 12g Mossberg on FAC S1 and the ad even says 

 

GEESE BEWARE 😁👍

Link below if you wish to have a Gander! 🤣

 

https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/mossberg/bolt-action/12-gauge/300-series-220513122041002

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22 by Dafid69

[SxS]

On 06/11/2024 at 12:52, Scully said:

I have no idea why it’s illegal, I didn't introduce the legislation! You’d be far better off asking your shooting org’ than an RFD. It is illegal to shoot game with a S1 shotgun, and as far as I’m aware ducks and geese are classed as game. 
It is irrelevant what type of ammo you use if you’re using it through a S1 shotgun. 
It also doesn’t matter if you just load two or three rounds, or even one; if you’re using a S1 shotgun it’s still illegal. 

The illegality, according to the quote posted higher up the thread, seems to be for semi/auto.  So a S1 pump would not be illegal.  That isn’t to say that it would be the right gun to use, but it wouldn’t appear to be illegal?

 

Similarly, that Mossberg bolt-action isn’t s semi/auto. 

Edited December 7 by SxS

[Scully]

3 hours ago, SxS said:

The illegality, according to the quote posted higher up the thread, seems to be for semi/auto.  So a S1 pump would not be illegal.  That isn’t to say that it would be the right gun to use, but it wouldn’t appear to be illegal?

 

Similarly, that Mossberg bolt-action isn’t s semi/auto. 

It does indeed refer to semi auto shotguns, but if it’s illegal to shoot game in the uk with a S1 self loader, I can’t see why it would be ok with a S1 pump. 
A S1 shotgun is a S1 shotgun, regardless of the action. 

Correct, that Mossberg B/A isn’t a semi auto, but neither is it a S1 if the description in the add is correct. 

[SxS]

People keep saying that there is a blanket S1 ban, but nobody seems to have posted a link to the relevant legislation?  S1 isn’t explicitly banned under the WCA definition posted earlier (6 Nov by eightlittlebits) in the thread: that only refers to semi and automatics with magazine capacities of more that 2 shots. 

All guns meeting that description are S1.  
But there are other S1 guns - such as high capacity pumps, or FAC air rifles - that don’t meet that description (because although they have high mag capacities they are neither semi nor automatic firearms). 

If it’s the case that S1 isn’t specifically banned as a complete class of guns, then there might just be a general (and understandable) confusion that because the guns most shooters think of when they hear “S1” (high capacity semis).

if the intention had been that all S1 guns were banned, it would have been clearer for the law to simply say so instead of making reference to the specific characteristics of guns in the WCA. 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, SxS said:

People keep saying that there is a blanket S1 ban, but nobody seems to have posted a link to the relevant legislation?  S1 isn’t explicitly banned under the WCA definition posted earlier (6 Nov by eightlittlebits) in the thread: that only refers to semi and automatics with magazine capacities of more that 2 shots. 

All guns meeting that description are S1.  
But there are other S1 guns - such as high capacity pumps, or FAC air rifles - that don’t meet that description (because although they have high mag capacities they are neither semi nor automatic firearms). 

If it’s the case that S1 isn’t specifically banned as a complete class of guns, then there might just be a general (and understandable) confusion that because the guns most shooters think of when they hear “S1” (high capacity semis).

if the intention had been that all S1 guns were banned, it would have been clearer for the law to simply say so instead of making reference to the specific characteristics of guns in the WCA. 

Regardless of magazine capacity, there are other factors via the various clauses/sub-clauses and a myriad of other confusing factors which make a FAC air rifle a S1 firearm, and I would think the plus 12ft lb clause would be up there with them. 
However, as you’ll know, a single shot CF rifle is still a S1 firearm, whether it be falling block, bolt-action/lever action whatever; magazine capacity doesn’t enter into it. 
For the sake of the act regarding the OP’s post, it is clear which catergory high magazine capacity semi auto shotguns fall into, and would think logic dictates that a pump action mechanism falls into the same category and for the same reason, but until someone tries it in a court of law we may not get a definitive answer. 
I have in the past owned S1 self loading and pump action shotguns, and currently am authorised to possess another S1 shotgun. I never complete the section which applies to ‘action’ on the application ( and that section remains blank until I’ve made a purchase ) simply because that would restrict me to that particular mechanism, but have always given as good reason to possess, ‘to be used under the rules and conditions within the WCA etc etc’. It is the only criteria under which I’ve been granted.

Admittedly, that doesn’t necessarily mean S1 pumps are bound by the same law which effects S1 self loaders, but never having had the intention of shooting game with one, it isn’t a matter I’ve pursued. 

[SxS]

 

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

For the sake of the act regarding the OP’s post, it is clear which catergory high magazine capacity semi auto shotguns fall into, and would think logic dictates that a pump action mechanism falls into the same category and for the same reason, but until someone tries it in a court of law we may not get a definitive answer. 

I’m sorry, but that’s just doesn’t seem to make sense as an argument if based only on the WCA?  There would be no more logic to arbitrarily saying that a different mechanism would be caught than there would be to saying that different mag sizes would.

You’d be hard pushed to ever get it tested in court, as it would never get that far if the only reliance being placed was on that section of the WCA.  Anyone faced with such an action would just need to point out that it very clearly applies only to automatic and semi-automatic firearms.  If the intention was that it caught all S1 firearms then that’s what it’d say…

It seems likely that when the law was drafted the intention was to avoid putting a lot of rounds into the air in quick succession and a perception that this could only happen with semi/automatic firearms with pump/bolt actions being quite deliberately omitted. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, SxS said:

 

I’m sorry, but that’s just doesn’t seem to make sense as an argument if based only on the WCA?  There would be no more logic to arbitrarily saying that a different mechanism would be caught than there would be to saying that different mag sizes would.

 

You’d be hard pushed to ever get it tested in court, as it would never get that far if the only reliance being placed was on that section of the WCA.  Anyone faced with such an action would just need to point out that it very clearly applies only to automatic and semi-automatic firearms.  If the intention was that it caught all S1 firearms then that’s what it’d say…

It seems likely that when the law was drafted the intention was to avoid putting a lot of rounds into the air in quick succession and a perception that this could only happen with semi/automatic firearms with pump/bolt actions being quite deliberately omitted. 

If it’s an argument you’re after then I’m afraid you’ve come to the wrong place, as not only do I not know for definite ( as no one else seems to either ) but nor do I really care that much, as I don’t intend to shoot game with a S1 shotgun. 
All we can offer are opinions based on logic, but as far as shotguns are concerned, it is magazine capacity ( and that alone ) which differentiates one from being S1 or S2, regardless of mechanism, and that is fact, not opinion. 
As for your opinion that a defence in court is that the legislation clearly applies to only automatic and semi-automatic shotguns then you can rule out automatics as they are banned outright, and as far as I know have never been legal to own in the UK as sporting firearms. 
There is much regarding UK firearms legislation which should and could be made much more straightforward to understand but it isn’t. 
Perhaps our shooting organisations should push to get this sorted, but they seem to be just as guilty of confusing and contradictory advice as anyone else, so we are where we are. 
As for your last paragraph, you’re making assumptions, but when it comes to getting a lot of rounds into the air in quick succession, I’d concede the semi would be faster, but there isn’t a lot to choose from between that and a pump taking into account we’re talking aimed shots. There are some exceedingly slick pumps out there. That’s also a fact. 
As an aside, and purely out of interest, earlier this morning I fired off an email to the Home Office asking for definitive clarification between the uses of a S1 semi auto and a S1 pump. 
We’ll see what they come up with. 

[SxS]

Not after an argument, but you do seem to not be seeing (or wanting to see) that the WCA doesn’t say “S1” but instead makes reference to a specific subset of S1 firearms based on certain characteristics that don’t apply to all of them. 

I am well aware that a pump can indeed cycle quickly.  The only non-SxS is shoot is a Benelli Supernova  

It will be interesting to see how the HO responds but it would be easy for them to miss a nuance and, ultimately, it’s what’s written in law that matters more.  

[Scully]

23 minutes ago, SxS said:

Not after an argument, but you do seem to not be seeing (or wanting to see) that the WCA doesn’t say “S1” but instead makes reference to a specific subset of S1 firearms based on certain characteristics that don’t apply to all of them. 

I am well aware that a pump can indeed cycle quickly.  The only non-SxS is shoot is a Benelli Supernova  

It will be interesting to see how the HO responds but it would be easy for them to miss a nuance and, ultimately, it’s what’s written in law that matters more.  

On the contrary, I’m open to any and all ways you wish to interpret the legislation, guidance or whatever else anyone wants to call it, and I’m well aware that every mechanism isn’t mentioned in the WCA, but the fact remains it is illegal to shoot game with a S1 self loading shotgun, and the characteristics of that which deem it a S1 shotgun is designated solely by its magazine capacity! 
If you want to use a S1 pump to shoot birds outside of the remit of the WCA, then go ahead, I’m not trying to stop you at all, and if you want to test the restrictions as interpreted by a court then I sincerely wish you good luck, but if the magazine is capable of holding more than two cartridges, then it makes no difference whether that shotgun is a bolt action, lever action, pump action or self loader, it is BY LAW a section 1 shotgun.
I’m not blinkered at all; I’m simply applying a logical opinion based on the fact it isn’t the mechanism which makes a shotgun S1 but rather its magazine capacity. 🤷‍♂️
 

[SxS]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

On the contrary, I’m open to any and all ways you wish to interpret the legislation, guidance or whatever else anyone wants to call it, and I’m well aware that every mechanism isn’t mentioned in the WCA, but the fact remains it is illegal to shoot game with a S1 self loading shotgun, and the characteristics of that which deem it a S1 shotgun is designated solely by its magazine capacity! 
If you want to use a S1 pump to shoot birds outside of the remit of the WCA, then go ahead, I’m not trying to stop you at all, and if you want to test the restrictions as interpreted by a court then I sincerely wish you good luck, but if the magazine is capable of holding more than two cartridges, then it makes no difference whether that shotgun is a bolt action, lever action, pump action or self loader, it is BY LAW a section 1 shotgun.
I’m not blinkered at all; I’m simply applying a logical opinion based on the fact it isn’t the mechanism which makes a shotgun S1 but rather its magazine capacity. 🤷‍♂️
 

Once again, that’s not what the extract of the WCA says.  It makes no reference at all to S1. 
 

Do you have a link to some other legislation that forbids the use of S1?

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

 I'm guessing most shooters won't admit to anyone in here if they shoot a game bird with an incorrect calibre or load or rule of thumb s1 or s2 weapon. I bet more than 90% of shooters have done.

But keep that to yourselves.

 

Dumb statement of the year. I would be interested in how you arrive at 90%.

[Scully]

48 minutes ago, SxS said:

Once again, that’s not what the extract of the WCA says.  It makes no reference at all to S1. 
 

Do you have a link to some other legislation that forbids the use of S1?

There is a link to a BASC advice sheet here: 

https://basc.org.uk/firearms/firearms-use/semi-automatic-shotguns-and-rifles-for-live-quarry-shooting/

It’s the only one I found during a quick browse admittedly, and I don’t know if it mentions the WCA. There may be others, but like I’ve already said, I’m not that interested to look further. 
However, if you are, perhaps you could do further searches and post your findings. 
Edited to add, I will of course post any response I get from the HO. 

Edited December 8 by Scully

[SxS]

Quote

In addition, the definitions of automatic and semi-automatic firearms in the WCA and WO have never been tested. It BASC’s view that only firearms that are automatic (those that fire more than one round for each depression of the trigger and are prohibited in the UK by the Firearms Acts) or semi-automatic ( self-loading action types; semi-automatic rifles are restricted by the Firearms Acts to .22 rimfire calibre in the UK, shotguns of this nature are unrestricted) whose magazine contain more than two rounds are included in the definition.

Therefore, firearms which use another reloading system (bolt or lever action for example) and have a magazine capacity over two rounds are not included in the definition and so could be used to shoot all the bird quarry species. However, it may prove difficult to gain a condition on a firearms certificate to shoot game or waterfowl with such a firearm and providers of shooting opportunities may not permit their use.

From the BASC link ^^^. 

Not really much need to look further when it looks like BASC agrees that other mechanisms aren’t caught… it would seem that if you have AOLQ you’d be fine to use S1 pumps etc.  Not that they’d necessarily be the first choice but if that’s what you happened to have available you could. 

[Scully]

There you go then, sorted. 

[Rim Fire]

you might want to take a look at this before you applie for one 

The use of any gun or rifle firing a single bullet, for the purpose of killing wildfowl, is prohibited to BASC members. It is illegal to use a semi-automatic shotgun in the pursuit of wildfowl or game unless it is fitted with a device to prevent the firing of more than 3 cartridges in succession without reloading.

 

Our Code of practice - Spalding Wildfowlers

[Scully]

Have had no reply from the HO. So either they aren’t interested or don’t know. 🤷‍♂️

Make of that what you will.