Is anybody bothered

[shootnfish]

i know this hasent realy got much to do with this thread but banning the use of lead shot for fishing was abit of a waste of time as i bet thousands more wildfowl are killed by lost and disgaurded end tackle (hooks and line) than there ever was by lead shot. but they cant ban these because how would you fish without these? could do it the red neck way i suppose the odd stick of dynamite here and there.

[Salopian]

For those of you that may be bothered? Here is a link to a paper from 2007 that may be informative.

I hope the Committee have read and digested it by the time they meet on Monday. Interestingly it is a Defra funded paper so they have had this information since at least 2008.

Perhaps Defra's time would have been better spent investigating salmonella, pnuemonia, and looping ill.

 

www.defra.gov.uk/vla/r..._oie07.pdf

 

What I do find very irritating is the anti-lead supporters who come on here and tell us how many Ducks they have seen dying and yet they have never produced the evidence. If it really is/was such a problem do you not think Rolf Harris, Kate Humble, or Bill Oddie would not have enhanced their portfolio on the back of this dreadful? scurge on society??

Edited April 21, 2010 by Salopian

[Popgun]

We have to stand up and fight a lead shot ban and the only people with any hope of fighting this ban are the BASC so if you shoot game or vermin with a shotgun or rifle then you need to stand behind the BASC.

[JRDS]

BASC will give it lip service and then go along with a ban. They have overseen a number of failures to defend the interests of Gameshooting (even championed the last one on Cage Rearing) and did not achieve any success on the last ban over Wetlands or indeed the shooting of any Wildfowl withn Lead but tried to tell us all along how good steel was. The same is happening again, read their magazine and the jargon of the posters from BASC on here in the early part of the thread. The NGO and the other organisations who represent the real face of shooting were not invited onto the panel for a reason, do not believe the too many cooks ********. This thread has been done to death but I cannot believe there are people who cannot see what is going on under their noses. Make no mistake the banning of Lead will have massive implications for the whole shooting industry and we are not represented by a body with a true desire to defend a ban. I wish I believed things were different but I truly don't.

Edited April 21, 2010 by JRDS

[Salopian]

JRDS,

This thread may have, (in your opinion) been done to death. That is how serious an issue it is.

John Swift and Dr. John are certainly not stupid, we need them to realise (and I am sure they do) how this will affect membership.

Drop in membership =loss of revenue=probable economies of resources = ultimately job losses.

BASC research department are fully aware of the implications and effects of the lead shot alternatives I am sure. Bismuth & Tungsten as minerals have recorded incidencies of being carcenagenic, (doesn't everything nowadays?).

Dave, Christopher Graf. Simon , I beg you to beat a path to our leaders door and implore him to tread softly with this issue.

Otherwise I fear that Simon Hamlyn may be called upon to become the Piper who leads the BASC membership into oblivion just like the Pied Piper of Hamlyn Town in Brunswick a fable which for those of you who know led to the children (Young Shots) being lost forever.

When we have a readily available, economic, alternative with the properties of Lead that is not harmful to the environment and humans I will use it. Until then I will use Lead.

[David BASC]

Some of you guys are very quick to lay accusation at BASC door, but you have nothing to back it up with.

 

BASC prevented the lead ban on wetlands coming in for years - For 10 years we fought, and won, over changes for the foreshore and when change became inevitable we achieved a nine year delay in implementation. But you will not doubt either not want to hear that or were ignorant of the facts.

 

Yes there are alternatives as we said and did a report on in our Mag last time round, are you suggesting that we should hide the fact there are alternatives for ducks? Should we ignore what the users of alternatives are saying? No obviously not…

 

You keep forgetting that BASC is not the only organisation on Defra group, we are there with the CA, the GCWT and the GTA, together with the backing of ALL the other shooting organisations. We are all there to prevent lead restrictions

 

David

[Zapp]

Some personal abuse has been removed from this thread.

 

This is a heated topic that not everybody will agree on, but let there be no uncertainty on this matter. If this thread descends into name calling it will be locked and/or binned.

 

ZB

[Popgun]

Some personal abuse has been removed from this thread.

 

This is a heated topic that not everybody will agree on, but let there be no uncertainty on this matter. If this thread descends into name calling it will be locked and/or binned.

 

ZB

I think it's about time to close this thead down every thing that needs saying has been said and it;s starting to get personal so enough is enough.

[David BASC]

I think everyone is (I hope) clear on where we (as a shooting community) are with lead shot - we are standing together to prevent further restrictions.

 

BASC, CA, GCWT and GTA are on the Defra working group with the intent to fighting for lead.

 

The other shooting orgs are backing this stance and doubtless some will be called forward to work with the group when they look at specific disciplines and applications.

 

The group hold their first meeting next week, let’s wait to see what happens as things move forward, but lets stop this silly accusation about any group or organisation not standing up for lead and leading shooting down a path of destruction for goodness sake!

 

Alternatives to lead must be used in some circumstances by law as we all know, and it is only right that the cartridge makers keep working on these NTS alternatives to improve performance etc, and we should not be shy about letting shooters know about this, but that does not mean anyone is thus rolling over and giving up on lead!

 

As I have said if we work together we have the best possible chance of an outcome that will be good for all of us, if we are divided though…

 

David

[al4x]

it is all getting a bit silly especially when the BASC have to say they don't have to take any notice of their scientific advisors as they aren't elected members of their council to try and defend leaks. Still its all tamed down a bit i the ST this week but we shall see can't see them getting much BASC advertising for a considerable time

 

On a side note there is a decent comparrison piece in the shooting times about steel versus lead showing the difference and problems.

[crimthan]

"can't see them getting much BASC advertising for a considerable time"

 

or maybe never again???

 

Why should BASC membership funds be handed over to help finance what is becoming an increasingly anti BASC publication. BASC's S & C reaches 135,000 members. These are good targetted customers for any company selling shooting / field sport related goods and an increase in the number of issues would seriously compete with ST — in regards both trade advertisers and readers — and lead to a further fall-off in ST's circulation figures. I know of 10 people personally who have cancelled their subscriptions to ST over the recent anti BASC tirades. I, being one of them.

[Jimbo57]

"can't see them getting much BASC advertising for a considerable time"

 

or maybe never again???

 

Why should BASC membership funds be handed over to help finance what is becoming an increasingly anti BASC publication. BASC's S & C reaches 135,000 members. These are good targetted customers for any company selling shooting / field sport related goods and an increase in the number of issues would seriously compete with ST — in regards both trade advertisers and readers — and lead to a further fall-off in ST's circulation figures. I know of 10 people personally who have cancelled their subscriptions to ST over the recent anti BASC tirades. I, being one of them.

 

 

Unfortunately I pay my subscription by quarterly direct debit so it will be the end of May before I can cancel Shooting Times. The BASC magazine is far superior in every way.

 

Jim

[poontang]

So, how did the first meeting go today?

 

Anybody know yet?

[Jimbo57]

So, how did the first meeting go today?

 

Anybody know yet?

 

I don't think ad hoc advisory groups normally publish minutes or issue press releases. They are there to prepare a report for DEFRA.

 

I imagine the meeting went something like this:

 

1. The Chairman welcomed the members present.

 

2. The Terms of Reference were noted and agreed.

 

3. It was noted that there had been many unfounded rumours in the shooting magazines and recorded that there ware currently no proposals to place further restrictions on lead ammunition. The Chairman reminded members that the policy of his Association was to oppose any unwarranted restrictions should any ever be proposed.

 

4. It was decided to set up two subgroups to review the existing literature relating to:

( a ) Food Standards

( b ) Wildlife Issues

 

5. The next meeting was arranged for November 2010

 

 

:blink:

[David BASC]

There will be an anouncement about the meeting soon.

 

David

[Christopher Graffius]

I understand the meeting went well.

 

Christopher

 

 

 

The Chairman issued the following statement:

 

“John Swift chair of Lead Ammunition Group said “Our Group held its first meeting today. There was a constructive exchange of views on working practices that will be needed to carry out the tasks set out in the Group’s terms of reference. The Group was in full agreement with keeping public stakeholders fully informed. This process is still at a very early stage and the Group has a full year before making a progress report to Defra and the FSA. The first step is to look closely at the evidence, conduct a risk assessment before deciding what steps if any need to be taken. The group plans to meet again in a month’s time. You will be able to keep in touch with the work of the Group and express your opinions by means of a Group website shortly to be created.”

[Salopian]

Did the decline of Great Britain coincide with the advent of Risk Assessments?

Should we fear the Advisory Groups Risk Assessment?

Will the Assessors be a member of the RSPB and a member of the FSA?

Or should it be a member of the CPSA who could get it done today, disband the working group and save one hell of a lot of money?

 

 

Please do not ban Lead until a viable, economic, alternative that is not carcenagenic is found.

[Christopher Graffius]

Did the decline of Great Britain coincide with the advent of Risk Assessments?

Should we fear the Advisory Groups Risk Assessment?

Will the Assessors be a member of the RSPB and a member of the FSA?

Or should it be a member of the CPSA who could get it done today, disband the working group and save one hell of a lot of money?

 

 

Please do not ban Lead until a viable, economic, alternative that is not carcenagenic is found.

 

As has been said time and time again - nobody's yet talking about a ban on lead ammunition except a minority of shooters.

[MC]

Did the decline of Great Britain coincide with the advent of Risk Assessments?

Should we fear the Advisory Groups Risk Assessment?

Will the Assessors be a member of the RSPB and a member of the FSA?

Or should it be a member of the CPSA who could get it done today, disband the working group and save one hell of a lot of money?

 

 

Please do not ban Lead until a viable, economic, alternative that is not carcenagenic is found.

 

 

Which CPSA would that be?

 

It certainly couldn't be the same CPSA who spent 40K because someone slapped their todger on someone elses head could it? I fear that they aren't capable of running a bath let alone something as important as this

[Chard]

Which CPSA would that be?

 

It certainly couldn't be the same CPSA who spent 40K because someone slapped their todger on someone elses head could it? I fear that they aren't capable of running a bath let alone something as important as this

 

That's all old hat now. You haven't been swatting up on Claysporting have you? :lol:

 

There's been no £40K. It's about £2.50 out of the petty cash.

 

That rumour was all part of a witch hunt to thin out the team so that some lesser mortals could get selected

 

Olympics coming up and all that. Needs must when you can't hack it.

 

Allegedly :thumbs:

[MC]

That's all old hat now. You haven't been swatting up on Claysporting have you?

 

There's been no £40K. It's about £2.50 out of the petty cash.

 

That rumour was all part of a witch hunt to thin out the team so that some lesser mortals could get selected

Olympics coming up and all that. Needs must when you can't hack it.

 

Allegedly :thumbs:

 

 

Chard,

 

That was very wrong of you to start that :P

[Chard]

Chard,

 

That was very wrong of you to start that :lol:

 

I expect to be leading the GB squad in the 2012 Olympics :thumbs:

 

Watch this space. I'll have a go at bit of OT this weekend, to get my eye in

[Salopian]

As has been said time and time again - nobody's yet talking about a ban on lead ammunition except a minority of shooters.

 

 

 

Christopher,

Correction, there are many people talking about a possible Lead ban. Twenty four pages of it here alone, and in the very first page post referring to the Shooting Times article, Alistair Balmain states that the RSPB already ban the use of lead on their land.

There is a very real threat that Lead will be unfairly assessed because too many people have alteria motives.

If BASC and other organisations robustly defended the use of lead, because there at present is not a viable effective replacement we would not be in the predicament we find ourselves in now.

Perhaps you should take a visit to Ornsdorf in Germany and see the devastation that steel shot has had there.

Is Lead not used extensively in the Building Industry and in Automobiles?

Perhaps we should consider reducing the use of Lead there first, after all far more people use cars than shoot so it would benefit the environment to a greater degree.

[Kent Militia]

Backdoor legislation to ban shooting that is what I say. Since they can't get enough support to ban guns or shooting they are going for an environmental perspective of: let's protect the environment and ban lead. Effectively putting an end to most shooting.

[BlaserF3]

Backdoor legislation to ban shooting that is what I say. Since they can't get enough support to ban guns or shooting they are going for an environmental perspective of: let's protect the environment and ban lead. Effectively putting an end to most shooting.

 

That is also my opinion too.