Steel shot is poo!

[chezza1986]

Just read the new shooting times on the article of steel replacing lead shot for game shooting and although the man doing the article is writing for a shooting magazine his tests and results in my eyes more than prove what is commonly known to most of use shooters is that steel does have some major limitations and drawbacks.

I have seen a few people on here saying they use steel for pigeon shooting and this article I read would support that it can be used effectively for that but only at close ranges, about 35 to 40 yards at most which is fine for decoying but on his other tests it was shown that to get an effective kill at about 40 yards on other tougher game like rabbits, pheasant etc. that a shot size in steel would have to be 3 to 4 times as big as a lead shot to match it's effective stopping power. It also showed that steel has a very limited range and it's stopping power fades rapidly past the 38 yard mark where as a smaller lead shot still keeps it's stopping power for at least another 10 to 15 yards for smaller shot and possibly longer on the larger shot sizes.

What other types of ammunition is there out there that does not have these limitations and is closer to the properties of lead that is commercially and economically viable to replace lead shot?? Also a product that does not write off classic guns that are not steel shot proofed.

[Guest cookoff013]

steel responds to a different way of thinking. a completely different mind set. - no kidding.

what seems to be the biggest complaint with steel, is the lack of range and energy.

it patterns well, with 40% more pieces of shot per oz, and keeping very tight patterns.

 

to increase the energy, speed should be increased, but the cip have a legeslation in place that all steel shot cartridges that are sold in the uk must not exceed 1400fps. speed is energy. speed is range.

 

handloading can acheive velocities of 1400fps and the concensus is to move steel faster still to maintain energy. steel has a poor ballistic co-efficient. to improve performance it is pushed way faster so the extra speed and energy is transmited down range.

 

i keep on getting complaints about steel being too high pressure. you cannot tell the pressure of a cartridge by pulling the trigger of a few cartridges.

infact most normal recipes for steel shot is in the very low pressure range. 6000psi ! if it drops any lower it wont even burn !

 

the go up 2-4 shotsizes rule is an old way of thinking. maybe go is one shotsize and push the shot way faster, faster than any lead load could be.

 

barrel wear only occurs if the correct shotcup is not used. high performance shot should have a high performance shotcup wad.

 

there is an issue with older guns, i wouldnt use steel in my sxs at all. i bought a gun to shoot steel exclusively.

 

another issue is the use of plastic shotshell wads. there is a biocup wad available but will never get the high performance a magnum / steel wad would do.

 

if you stick to the steel way of thinking and shooting, you should be able to use steel shells effectively. the performance is obtainable.

just dont shoot geese with a steel 7 at 100yards and wonder why it didnt do the job.

or shoot BBs at 400fps and wonder why they bounce off game.

 

there are aproved recipes for the handloader out there, pushing 1900fps.

 

- alot of shooters out there will never have any experience on shooting steel, they just say the same old ****, hight pressure, blown up guns, scratched barrels.

if they have any decent load data, all the questions and concerns can be answered.

 

i still think heavy slow steel loads are not the answer, but fast lighter loads. this uses steels properties to our advantage, instead of compairing it to lead-shot, the two are so different comparing them you`ll allways be dissapointed.

 

-i do oppose the use of steel for everything unless i have to. for waterfowl i have to use a non toxic alternate.

for everthing else i`d like to continue to use lead.

 

cook.

[Evil Elvis]

i agree wholeheartedley...steel is pooooooo

[vampire]

I have used steel gamebore 7 1/2 24g 12g,in my old baikal sxs & o/u also the old pump action,24-28g loads have been fine and not scratched barrels although i wouldnt want to fire any heavier loads through em.the pump action prouduces some very long range shots with a tight pattern so you have to be on em,but at night while lamping the steel prouduces sparks so you now exactly where you are hitting or not as the case may be.shooting pigeon over the decoys sharpens your skill to get the same results as opposed to lead patterns but ranges have not been affected to much as they are mainly 40 yrd shots.

This is only my experiences with steel,if you could buy lead as cheap that got good results i would use lead,but you can get 250 carts for £28 so thats what i use with the results i need on pigeon and rabbit/corvids and general vermin control.

[flytie]

I hate steel shot, with a passion! I use hevishot, damned expensive but very effective.

 

ft

[poontang]

I have used steel gamebore 7 1/2 24g 12g,in my old baikal sxs & o/u also the old pump action,24-28g loads have been fine and not scratched barrels although i wouldnt want to fire any heavier loads through em.the pump action prouduces some very long range shots with a tight pattern so you have to be on em,but at night while lamping the steel prouduces sparks so you now exactly where you are hitting or not as the case may be.shooting pigeon over the decoys sharpens your skill to get the same results as opposed to lead patterns but ranges have not been affected to much as they are mainly 40 yrd shots.

This is only my experiences with steel,if you could buy lead as cheap that got good results i would use lead,but you can get 250 carts for £28 so thats what i use with the results i need on pigeon and rabbit/corvids and general vermin control.

 

You use steel shot for lamping I would think the sparks you're seeing comes from the shot as it ricochets off the ground and into the distance. :unsure:

You're not the only one on here who uses steel clay loads for live quarry to try and save a few quid, and it's understandable in todays financial climate (though i don't agree with it), but don't go bleating when lead is banned altogether and you have no alternative but to use steel. The more people use steel when it's not necessary the more likely the anti lead lobby will cite it as a good hunting alternative and the banning of lead will soon follow. It's a big price to pay for the future of shooting just to save a few quid today.

[utectok]

People say oh at least it's cheaper but the only real fibre wad steel I can find (gamebore) ard way dearer than lead! I know you can get PBD plastic wads but most of my shooting requires full fiber wad cause of the cows. And even my clay trap is on a cow inhabitied hillside. Not gonna be a cheap change for me so come on BASc do your bit for us! Did anyone elese get an email from basc dear mr.... Lead shot blah blah?

[jko]

I dont want to pee on your parade guys but!, none have you have mentioned the terrific recoil you get shooting steel ****? as well as being ballistically poorer to lead shot the side by side comparisons with lead shows you have to go up a size or two in shot, plus fire it with much higher velocities, leading to worse recoil! and remember here a lot of shooting grounds have banned steel shot cartridges because of public liability insurance providers not covering them in the case of accidents. looking at the prices being quoted for steel V lead I cant understand why anyone would want to save £20.00 per thousand by shooting steel **** over lead? By doing so you are just helping the loony lefty berks who are pushing for the abolition of lead. :unsure:

[Evil Elvis]

:unsure: Still think its pooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[anser2]

O dear hear we go again. First thing do not believe a thing you read in the Sh-tting Times , they are totally bias. Second get into the right mindset when using steel. You need to be thinking at least 4s and 3s are very effective. Its only at extreme range that steel fails to measure up to lead. In sensible ranges 90% of good quality steel shells will do the job , the real question is are you a good enough shooter to use it effectively.

 

Cookoff is right , new skills needed in using steel , very well big sizes and fast loads. There are a few poor quality old style steel shells on the market , but try the new modern loads such as Gamebore and you will not go far wrong.

 

As for recoil , I bet most on hear would not know the difference in recoil between 32 gr loads of steel and lead. I shot with a mixed bag of steel and lead shells a while ago and the recoil ( and results ) were the same for both. Its only when you go up to the high performance magnum loads that recoil becomes an issue , but none of the 3 or 3.5 inch steel goose loads I have used kick anything like as bad as the old 50 gr lead loads.

 

I like flytie used to hate steel , but the new shells on the market now will do the job and if there is a problem its more likely to be in the shooters head rather the shells. The main problem is that most shooters are very conservative and settled in their shooting habits and do not want to try something new and a little more challenging .

 

I still use lead for the majority of my pigeon shooting for one reason … it’s a bit cheaper than steel. Go on try some steel and see how you get on ……….I dare you

Edited April 24, 2010 by anser2

[anser2]

:unsure: Still think its pooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

 

Evil Elvis on what evidence do you think quality steel shells like Gamebore are POOOOOO ? have you used it and if so what shells \ shot size \ speed were you using ?

[Evil Elvis]

:unsure: Yep I used gamebore ones too.Won 500 and was given another 500!!! Close up they were fine, in fact i did like them, they had a few extra pellets and smashed stuff well at the club i won them at, that have mostly closer targets. (28g 7.5). I started to use them at other clubs with longer range targets and started to miss a few longer range shots that Id normally hit, so tried them with tighter chokes 1/2 3/4.. which made a very slight difference.The went to another club with a load of guys from here, there was a very long range looper that i just couldnt hit, yet Mungler was pasting it ( as usual). I tried 10 shots on the trot, various leads....nothing.I asked Mungler for some lead and hit them all, I then gave him some steels and he missed....conclusive enough for me.

 

conclusion:

 

STEEL IS POO AND I WILL NEVER USE IT AGAIN BY CHOICE!

[Popgun]

STEEL IS POO AND I WILL NEVER USE IT AGAIN BY CHOICE![/size]

I think you are spot on i've tryed it on ducks in size 3 or 4 and anything over 35yards it's useles and all i ended doing was sending the dog for long range cripples tryed bismuth and that was much the same utter tripe.

[utectok]

So to sum up steel is more expensive and more useless! Out of interest why do the clay steel shells not go up a couple of sizes too ? Steel fives would steel have plenty of shot in them and might have a range comparable to seven lead? Dunno but we are supposed to use 3s on pheasants so perhaps ?

[anser2]

So you have not used it in the proper size on live game then Elvis. If your mate used 7.5 in steel I am not surprised he did not do any good bearing in mind you should go up at least 2 sizes in steel 7.5 would be like using 9.5s in lead. Would 9.5 lead shells break long range clays ?

 

Popgun 32 gr loads of steel in 3s and 4s are fine up to 35-40 yards on duck ( I have killed 100s using those loads ). Beyond that you need high performance steel. A 40 gr load of 2s are nothing short of stunning on high duck. I must have shot forty 45 – 50 yard mallard coming over the sea wall last season with a 2 to 1 success ratio.

 

Utectok of course you would need to go up to no 3s on pheasants. There is of course an argument for clays the answer is simple. Instead of trying to hit 50 yard clays , just move the traps 20 yards closer .

 

In the past steel shells were rubbish and I would be one of the first to condemn them. But over the last year or two a new range of very fast shells have come on the market. Shells such as Gamebore and RC are a very different beast today to some of the rubbish shells about a few years ago.

 

 

O and one other thing ... chuck the bias stick in the mud Shi--ing Times in the dustbin and read some of the American shooting magazines and see the results they get with steel.

Too many people have just stuck their heads in the sand and decided steel are no good without using the stuff. I can remember many years ago a mate and I bought some Remington lead goose shells and we shot half a box without bringing down a single bird. I decided to use the remaining shells on cormorants ( they were on the pest list in those days. I killed 11 high cormorants for the remaining 12 shells. There was nothing wrong with the shells it was all in my mind , having missed the first goose I condemned them as rubbish. When using steel for pigeons change your mindset use a suitable gun , ( not an English game gun ) think open chokes fast loads and big pellets and you will not go far wrong.

Edited April 25, 2010 by anser2

[Guest topshot_2k]

i have used it on various birds and it wasnt anywhere near lead in term of performance. Dont waste your money on it. It cant and never will be able to match lead in terms of killing power. Not to mention by going 2 sizes bigger in steel eg #4 32g over #6 32g lead you actually get less pellets

Edited April 25, 2010 by topshot_2k

[Popgun]

[quote name='anser2' date='Apr 25 2010, 09:48 AM' post='1062435

 

Popgun 32 gr loads of steel in 3s and 4s are fine up to 35-40 yards on duck ( I have killed 100s using those loads ). Beyond that you need high performance steel. A 40 gr load of 2s are nothing short of stunning on high duck. I must have shot forty 45 – 50 yard mallard coming over the sea wall last season with a 2 to 1 success ratio.

thanks for your response i'm allways ready to try something else what cartridges would you recamend for high duck on the salt marsh and canadas out to 40 yards i;ll give them a try next season i have a Winchester SX3 in 3" which i got to give steel a fair try,my wildfowling guns are all old English sxs some in 3" the others in2 and 3/4" thanks for your time Popgun.

[Cranfield]

I am not an advocate for steel, nor am I a ballistics expert, but I have used it on clays and live quarry with good effect.

 

In discussing steel shot with a lot of shooters, I find its a bit like the, " I don't like Guinness " statement.

When you question them further they admit having never tried it.

[Guest topshot_2k]

shooting high duck and canadas over 40yds with steel :unsure:

Edited April 25, 2010 by topshot_2k

[Guest cookoff013]

I am not an advocate for steel, nor am I a ballistics expert, but I have used it on clays and live quarry with good effect.

 

In discussing steel shot with a lot of shooters, I find its a bit like the, " I don't like Guinness " statement.

When you question them further they admit having never tried it.

 

+1

 

i had a chat with a load of guys from my club and most had never used it at all. they are sitting on the fence. i did have a chat with another guy about handloading faststeel loads. been a great help, good to bounce some recipes too. find one that looks good, and have a go.

[anser2]

Its true 2 3\4 inch 32 gr loads of steel only perform well out to 40 yards , but that is plenty for decoy shooting. If you need something with a little more poke Topshot try 3.5 inch Remington sportsman no 2s on duck at 50 yards and provided you use the right choke it will do the job as well as any standard 32 gr load of lead. You have to think about what you are doing more with steel. Just shove any old steel shell in the gun and it will not perform at long range. I use an American after choke with 42 points ( thats more than full lead choke ) and BB or BBB for pink feet. These loads do not perform anyway near as well in standard full chokes. The after choke I use is specialy regulated for BB and BBB pellets. They easily give another 10 yards of range over standard chokes. Having said that canadas are very big birds twice the size of pink feet and I would feel a lot more confident using hevi shot or Kent Inpact at canadas at over 40 yards.

 

For pigeons over decoys i do not use any choke at all. Steel patterns a lot tighter than lead and there is not the need for so many pellets as their is in lead. So No 4 or 3 will provide very good patterns in open chokes.

 

Popgun With the old lead proof magnums their are no steel shells I know of that will give good performance at the ranges you are talking about as your gun is not proofed for high performance steel. I have two such guns and i can only use them with Impact tungstun and hevi- shot loads. To use the high performance shells you are going to have to get a steel proof gun. yes it ****** me off a few years ago , but since splashing out first on a Baikal 3.5 inch and then later a Browning Gold i have never looked back. Gamebore mammoths 36 gr in 3s take some beating for foreshore duck or as i already said Remington 3 or 3.5 inch no 3s or 2s ( 2s need the 1 9\16s oz load to provide enough pellets. I have used RC and Mirarge Clever to good effect. I have never tried Hull solway shells , but heard good reports of them. I have never done very well with any of the Express \ Lydale loads in steel. They are very slow compared with most other steel loads ( almost 30 % slower than the loads mentioned above. And with steel speed kills at long range.

 

Lead is always going to out perform a steel load of the same charge at very long range , but by going up a couple of shot sizes , using the right gun\shot \ choke comnination and picking fast shells steel comes very close in performance to lead.

Edited April 25, 2010 by anser2

[Guest cookoff013]

Its true 2 3\4 inch 32 gr loads of steel only perform well out to 40 yards , but that is plenty for decoy shooting. If you need something with a little more poke Topshot try 3.5 inch Remington sportsman no 2s on duck at 50 yards and provided you use the right choke it will do the job as well as any standard 32 gr load of lead.

+1 the super steel loads are only 3 and 3.5 "

 

 

You have to think about what you are doing more with steel. Just shove any old steel shell in the gun and it will not perform at long range. I use an American after choke with 42 points ( thats more than full lead choke ) and BB or BBB for pink feet. These loads do not perform anyway near as well in standard full chokes. The after choke I use is specialy regulated for BB and BBB pellets. They easily give another 10 yards of range over standard chokes. Having said that canadas are very big birds twice the size of pink feet and I would feel a lot more confident using hevi shot or Kent Inpact at canadas at over 40 yards.

 

so would i feel more comfortable, but ..

a) getting the hevishot shells from the dealer who wont order them, because minimum order of 1000, no dealer is going to tie up that much money in stock.

the actual cost of £2 a bang sends shivers down my spine. i probly could take the expense, but i`d have to buy 100 or so.

 

 

For pigeons over decoys i do not use any choke at all. Steel patterns a lot tighter than lead and there is not the need for so many pellets as their is in lead. So No 4 or 3 will provide very good patterns in open chokes.

+1 for a deek situation 25yard range and any"steel" shells, will work

 

Popgun With the old lead proof magnums their are no steel shells I know of that will give good performance at the ranges you are talking about as your gun is not proofed for high performance steel.

+1

I have two such guns and i can only use them with Impact tungstun and hevi- shot loads. To use the high performance shells you are going to have to get a steel proof gun. yes it ****** me off a few years ago , but since splashing out first on a Baikal 3.5 inch and then later a Browning Gold i have never looked back. Gamebore mammoths 36 gr in 3s take some beating for foreshore duck or as i already said Remington 3 or 3.5 inch no 3s or 2s ( 2s need the 1 9\16s oz load to provide enough pellets. I have used RC and Mirarge Clever to good effect. I have never tried Hull solway shells , but heard good reports of them.

these are both specialised steel shells, intended for waterfowl. they will be up to the job.

I have never done very well with any of the Express \ Lydale loads in steel. They are very slow compared with most other steel loads ( almost 30 % slower than the loads mentioned above. And with steel speed kills at long range.

yeah the lylevale stuff is slow. you put on a day and a half lead on the target to hit.

 

Lead is always going to out perform a steel load of the same charge at very long range , but by going up a couple of shot sizes , using the right gun\shot \ choke comnination and picking fast shells steel comes very close in performance to lead.

 

the cip has a maximum shotsize and shot speed. both the limitations cripple the performance of steel. this is the reason we only have cr@ppe shells for waterfowl. also is a shell recoills excessively it will be un available here.

the cip recomends 1400fps maximum for any steel shot. steel is better at 1550+ loads are coming out at that speed. there even is a manufacturer that specialised in `fasteel` loads.

the cip are screwing everything up.

 

 

even 1oz at 1800fps is going to be a stella duck load.

 

shotsize, - they limit the shot size. steel is better going up a few. too big and the load automaticly fail.

recoil, - steel shells recoil because is speed. too much the load will fail.

speed, if the shell exceeds 1400fps then it will fail cip certification.

pressure- f the pressure is too high, then i`m glad the shell fails specification.

 

also dont forget, super speed steel shells are really loud !

 

the american loads are better just because the sammi requirements are different, they can lump t shot at stuff.

 

handloading is the way to go.

[anser2]

Cookoff I would hunt around for another dealer for your Hevi-shot. My two local gun shops get it in by the individual case (100 shells ) as long as its a part of a bigger order from Express. I must admit at almost £2.00 a shot it is a bit steep , but on the other hand how many hevi-shot are you going to shoot at canadas a season ? I shoot quite a few geese each season and 80% of them are shot with steel ( I never thought I would say that a few years ago ) and only shoot 20 or so hevi - shot a season , on days when I know the birds are going to be on the limit of range. Though I must confess I can pick the days when I go wildfowling and like to go when the weather is right.

 

Try Lyngs of Massingham ( nr Kings Lynn ) Woods of Swaffham and Richardsons of Halesworth , Suffolk for your hevi-shot. I have bought boxes of 10 from all three shops.

Edited April 25, 2010 by anser2

[Guest cookoff013]

actually i havent seen any for sale. they are the type of cartridge that not every shop has.

i`ve had to resort to handloading steel. basicly i have the equiptment to handload anything.

i will load steel in the first instance. itx in the second.

 

i had to order some bismuth ages ago. i still have 75 cartridges. i think they are the worse cartridges i`ve ever used.

i wish i could have used anything else but them. they are **** and old. they just about go bang.

i think they are evil. i`m sure they are why some give up fowling.

 

if i could afford to shoot tungsten all the time i would. but i can load steel for under 30p a shell. and still get average lead like performance.

 

no dealer in the world is ever going to tie so much money into stock like 1000 tungsten cartridges.

 

if i cant hit anything with a #3 steel load going 1800-1850fps then i`ll probly give up. that cartridge should be good on the deeks and in the open.

the new metals are way better than lead (itm / itx /powershot /niceshot / TM / other matrix.) in density and ballistics. they also are available at £200+ for 7lbs.

if i shot alot and needed the performance /had money to burn. i`d go for them.

but i`m cheaping out with steel.

but i intend to make it work. if all else fails i can just load itx and powershot.

 

i intend to use itx / tungsten for pass shooting geese, thats all.

[anser2]

I agree with you about bismuth in big pellets for geese. When bismuth first came out David Garrard “ Homeloader “of the Shooting Times loaded me up a batch of them in BB , 1 1\2 oz loads. A few weeks later I had a great pink foot flight with 30 + skeins coming over me , all in the 45-50 yard range. I started with Winchester 1 7\8oz loads and killed 4 pinks for half a dozen shots. Switching to bismuth I had 12 shots without dropping a bird only to change back to the winchester’s and get 4 more pinks for a handful of shots. Time and time I have found the bismuth pellets break up when hitting a bone instead of the bone breaking. I have done better with 4s on duck , but I understand the smaller pellets are made differently to the large pellets. However Eley have just relaunched bismuth in a new form so it might be worth giving them a second try.

 

Over the years lead shells had been perfected to do the job. Non toxic shells are still new in this country , the majority do a goot job but they are still evolving , most for the better. If we do end up losing lead shells i suspect the research effort into steel will be steped up and we will end up with a new super steel shell. Already soft steel pellets are being developed along with faster loads and fibre wads. Who knows whats comming next.