garyb Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Ok say for example... I've been given permission by land owner Mr A to control Vermin, Fox and Deer on his land. But.....What if Mr A, has also sold the game and / or Deer rights to a syndicate on the same ground. Can I legally shoot Muntjac ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 I'd say it depends if he's sold the rights as sole rights, or whether he's just put a price on allowing others to shoot there too? If he's charged the other guys for the sole rights then I'd say that even if it's legal to do so it would be pretty rude to shoot what are essentially their Deer. That's as long as they are controlling them sufficiently of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Ok say for example... I've been given permission by land owner Mr A to control Vermin, Fox and Deer on his land. But.....What if Mr A, has also sold the game and / or Deer rights to a syndicate on the same ground. Can I legally shoot Muntjac ? As far as I'm aware if the landowner has 'sold' the shooting rights to a third party then he no longer has the right to give or take shooting permissions without authority from the shooting rights 'owner' Muntys are still classed as game and not vermin/pests so there's no getting round it playing the 'pest control' card! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeh Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Ok say for example... I've been given permission by land owner Mr A to control Vermin, Fox and Deer on his land. But.....What if Mr A, has also sold the game and / or Deer rights to a syndicate on the same ground. Can I legally shoot Muntjac ? Eeeek. Depends on the wording. If he's sold the Game rights (that'll be anything with a season attached) that means you can shoot pests (I.e anything without a season). If, on the other hand, he's sold the shooting rights, then that can very well include pest control too. At the end of the day, it's all down to the contract that he wrote down with the syndicate on the land (there is no usual format that these things follow). If it's a word-of-mouth contract, then there is nothing to stop you from shooting what ever you like, but you might very well annoy the syndicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted June 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Hmmm maybe one for the BASC boys... I'm not looking to tred on anyones toes, just want to stay legal. Surely the sale of Game / Stalking rights dosen't take the landowner out the whole loop? - Else what would stop the syndicate inviting anyone they please onto the land to do as they please ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 I've thought about this a bit since you mentioned it and personally i reckon its confused by the guy with the issue being interested in deer yet having bought the game rights. It sounds like the farmer is thinking this doesn't cover deer and the guy is thinking it does, I'd also assume there is probably no agreement on paper to clarify things. I know this is the case on my mates farm where they let the game shooting but don't specifically include or exclude the deer and in fact assume they aren't shot. You're between a rock and a hard place as fundamentally the farmer can give you permission and thinks it is fine but the other guy thinks he has paid for the deer, With your links I'd try and find out if there is a written agreement in place, if not then you may need him to have a word with the guy and specify what he is entitled to take and that you will be taking the odd Muntjac. Its one of those situations you have to play very carefully to ensure it doesn't get silly as you could end up trying to argue the toss over poaching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody79 Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 It really all depends on the wording of the contact that he has with the other people, if he has in effect rented the shooting/hunting rights out to the other people, then he has no longer got the authority to allow you to shoot there. If the other people are just paying to be able to shoot there, then there is no issue. I would suggest clarifying this with BASC legal team, however it would be useful for them to have a copy of the agreement between the landowner and the other people! Does sound like a bit of a mind field.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) Surely the person or group who 'own' the shooting 'rights' are a little like a tenant farmer? the landowner has no say as to what the tenant does during the tenancy as long as he abides by any restrictive covenants. If a landowner could sell the rights to shoot on a given piece of land and then give the right to shoot to someone else then legally we'd be in a right pickle!? Mungler....... Edited June 16, 2010 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) Not quite, you can have a contract for game shooting and include whatever you like in it so Deer could be excluded its entirely down to the person holding the rights and what they want to sell. there is still a legal loophole where you can still shoot the vermin so as not to leave crops open to being eaten by rabbits. sadly I think this case comes down to what is or what isn't written on paper, If its not on paper then it is going to be hard to sort out have a quick look here, only the BASC template agreements but do show the landowner can include or exclude as they see fit http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/game...-agreements.cfm Edited June 16, 2010 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve29 Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) Like others have illuded to already, no one can advise on this without knowing what the agreement is between the two parties and what is written in their contract, if any. If as you say he has 'sold' the rights to shoot deer and game over his land then he has no legal right to grant you permission to shoot muntjac as they are game and included within the term 'Deer'. You may still be able to shoot vermin and fox if those rights have not been sold. The person to ask is the farmer. As long as you ask him all the right questions, do your 'due diligence' and whole heaterdly believe and have satisified yourself that you are acting lawfully then in my opinion it wouldn't be you that would get into trouble with the law if it turns out he hasn't got the right to grant you permission, it would be the landowner/farmer as he is the one breaking the contract by granting a right which he cannot legally grant. If taken to task on the matter you can say that you asked him for permission and took it on good faith that he had the ability to grant you the rights to shoot over his land. You would not be expected to have gone through the sale contracts with a fine tooth comb to make sure he had that right in the first place, imagine how much work it would cause all of us if we had to check the owners of our permissions had the right to let us shoot their land! The main thing is to make sure you get something in writing from him! Edited June 16, 2010 by Steve29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Gary ,I would look for some where else . You are going to get involved in all sorts of rows and bad feelings . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted June 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Gary ,I would look for some where else . You are going to get involved in all sorts of rows and bad feelings . Harnser . Trust me.. It's old news so to speak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 So, these muntjac you have already shot... As the others have said you need find out the details of the agreement with the other shooters. I know some stalking ground locally that has the rights sold to a famous shooting guide, but he pays per stalk/beast, so the estate is free to give or sell stalking to whoever they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Its ok Stuart I'm sure the evidence has been eaten by now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 (edited) Ok say for example... I've been given permission by land owner Mr A to control Vermin, Fox and Deer on his land. But.....What if Mr A, has also sold the game and / or Deer rights to a syndicate on the same ground. Can I legally shoot Muntjac ? It's very simple. If you have been given permission by the person able to give permission you can do what he has given you permission to do. If he has given/sold/whatever rights to someone else it is his issue and not yours! You are not in breech of contract with anyone, he "may" be, but it isn't your problem! If the other party has a problem it is down to them to sort it out with the owner, not you! Edited June 17, 2010 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted June 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 (edited) So, these muntjac you have already shot... Noooo not at all - infact not even one!... pure greed has got this guys back up tis all (long story) Dekers - Thank you. Edited June 20, 2010 by garyb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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