Raul Moat tazer issue.

[poontang]

Theres 3 things about his shooting that bother me, firstly the use of an enquiry for the first time in legal history for an individual death, Dr Kelly being the only other and also considered a whitewash.

 

I'm afraid you're wrong there.

 

There was a coroners inquest into his death in August 2007.

 

The inquest was halted by the coroner due to some of the police evidence, which by law, couldn't be disclosed. The police had used a lot of covert intercept surveillance to monitor and track Rodneys movements, evidence which was not at the time allowed in court. Therefore the coroner had no option but to halt the case.

 

An inquiry into Rodneys death is due to start on 6th Oct. 2010.

[manxman2]

I'm afraid you're wrong there.

 

There was a coroners inquest into his death in August 2007.

 

The inquest was halted by the coroner due to some of the police evidence, which by law, couldn't be disclosed. The police had used a lot of covert intercept surveillance to monitor and track Rodneys movements, evidence which was not at the time allowed in court. Therefore the coroner had no option but to halt the case.

 

An inquiry into Rodneys death is due to start on 6th Oct. 2010.

 

I dont dispute what you say poontang, i have been discussing this case and dr kellys elsewhere, i would appreciate a link to that information tho.

i try not to argue see, i would rather a discussion was fact based.

 

Thanks.

 

Its my impression that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, you fly with the crows you get shot with the crows,

 

Its clear he was not under observation, the car was the focal point.

 

 

.........................................................................

 

unsure of Rodney's identity, police had first called on one of his neighbours, who put two and two together and told friends. Word spread through the close-knit extended family. Waiting for the police to call, Alexander turned on the television and stared at the red Sky News ticker.

 

The portrait of Rodney as a gun-toting drug lord is utterly alien to his family and wide circle of friends.

 

So far, the police have not publicly offered any evidence to suggest that Rodney was a gun-toting drug dealer. According to a statement by E7, recounted in the minutes of an IPCC meeting

 

 

The IPCC investigated the shooting. Rather than publish its report, it passed it to the Crown Prosecution Service - a sign of the seriousness of the case. But in July, the CPS concluded there was insufficient evidence to convict any individual for the slaying of Rodney.

 

 

................................................................................

.......................

 

 

 

The cases also involved the immediate smear campaign as with the young totally innocent brazilian.

Same squad same police force.

 

 

 

 

Within hours, news agencies misreported that Rodney was holding a gun when he was shot. The few newspapers that noted the incident subsequently described Rodney as a crack-dealing "drugs baron". This label perhaps explains why so few people have heard of the Azelle Rodney Campaign for Justice.

 

 

 

 

It stinks of cover-up to me, but i would be happy to have the stink removed.

 

You see insufficient evidence in their opinion, a service biased towards the police, still means there was evidence of misconduct.

 

 

 

 

the CPS concluded there was insufficient evidence to convict any individual for the slaying of Rodney.

Edited September 30, 2010 by manxman2

[death from below]

It must be right, the gaurdian printed it.

 

Blah blah cover up conspircay theories.

[poontang]

I dont dispute what you say poontang, i have been discussing this case and dr kellys elsewhere, i would appreciate a link to that information tho.

 

If I knew how to post a link I'd happily do that for you. (any help appreciated)

 

The coroners report is easily found on Google however.

[manxman2]

If I knew how to post a link I'd happily do that for you. (any help appreciated)

 

The coroners report is easily found on Google however.

 

just click on the address bar at the very top of the page it should turn blue, then right click and use copy and paste.

[Slug]

Some interesting reading there for sure, all I know after reading some of this if I get Hard stopped by plod I will put both my hands over my face palms in, and when all the bullet holes line up through my nut...Lets see them wriggle out of that one..

[poontang]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7125038.stm

 

Wow, how easy was that

 

There's a link in the story to the coroners report, and why he had to halt proceedings.

[manxman2]

yes poontang simples.

 

 

There has never been an inquest, and its taken ken clarke to initiate an inquiry.

 

This link shows the coroners frustration with the suppression of evidence, and tere is no excuse for the coroner being denied access other than suppression.

 

Pre inquest and reason for suspension of any inquest.

 

number 19.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs...zellerodney.pdf

 

 

As i say my interest is purely political.

 

I dont beat drums for strangers, i do like political shenanigans tho, ken clarke owes nU labour nowt.

 

SwIng tony Swing..

Edited September 30, 2010 by manxman2

[Mungler]

Some interesting reading there for sure, all I know after reading some of this if I get Hard stopped by plod I will put both my hands over my face palms in, and when all the bullet holes line up through my nut...Lets see them wriggle out of that one..

 

 

I like that

[poontang]

yes poontang simples.

 

 

There has never been an inquest, and its taken ken clarke to initiate an inquiry.

 

This link shows the coroners frustration with the suppression of evidence, and tere is no excuse for the coroner being denied access other than suppression.

 

Pre inquest and reason for suspension of any inquest.

 

number 19.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs...zellerodney.pdf

 

 

As i say my interest is purely political.

 

I dont beat drums for strangers, i do like political shenanigans tho, ken clarke owes nU labour nowt.

 

SwIng tony Swing..

 

Well you could call it a suppression of evidence, but then I would suspect the law was brought in to protect the methods used by police and other security services. Afterall their methods wouldn't be much use if plastered all over the papers, and coroners courts are public places.

It's a totally different scenario to the David Kelly case (although I do agree with you that Kelly's death does raise serious concerns) in that an inquest was instigated, though brought to an abrupt end due to the legal issues raised.

[Guest CraigBenson]

No-one is claiming he was an angel, also he isnt here anymore to defend the allegations, that said he is of no loss to me.

Theres 3 things about his shooting that bother me, firstly the use of an enquiry for the first time in legal history for an individual death, Dr Kelly being the only other and also considered a whitewash.

Secondly we all agree i am sure only the most experience officers are trusted to those posts, however i have to wonder after the officer pulled the trigger not once not twice not three times as those shots to the head were required for total and absolute disablement, what was going through this officers head when he delivered the 4th 5th 6th and 7th bullets into his head from just feet away..

Thirdly the total supression of the story.

 

It would have been adrenalin. A number of yeras ago I was on live armed guard training for the umpteenth time in my career, as part of that training we had a practise patrol around part of the airfield site. I was armed with a SA80 with a magazine of 10 blank rounds.Mw and my oppo set off with the rest of the course following (to pull us to bits later). We were moving around the site when one of the Rock instructors setpped out from the corner of a building and opened up with a browning (balnks). I was told later that I dropped to a kneeling position while making ready, and returned fire. I was asked how many rounds I fired, I thought it was 1 maybe 2. On checking the mag I had fired 4 and the instructor had to check the weapon as it sounded like a burst of automatic (it was set to single rounds and rifle was working perfectly). I didn't think I reacted. The officers more than likley reacted on instinct and those 7 rounds may well have been fired in a very short time period.

[manxman2]

It would have been adrenalin. A number of yeras ago I was on live armed guard training for the umpteenth time in my career, as part of that training we had a practise patrol around part of the airfield site. I was armed with a SA80 with a magazine of 10 blank rounds.Mw and my oppo set off with the rest of the course following (to pull us to bits later). We were moving around the site when one of the Rock instructors setpped out from the corner of a building and opened up with a browning (balnks). I was told later that I dropped to a kneeling position while making ready, and returned fire. I was asked how many rounds I fired, I thought it was 1 maybe 2. On checking the mag I had fired 4 and the instructor had to check the weapon as it sounded like a burst of automatic (it was set to single rounds and rifle was working perfectly). I didn't think I reacted. The officers more than likley reacted on instinct and those 7 rounds may well have been fired in a very short time period.

 

I take your point, and had already considered that angle.

 

But these armed police are the cream of the cream, and i can safely discount brain freeze.

One thing, the shots from that close deliver massive impact energy, shooting a man in the face neck and head 7 times, takes time, as the target gets blasted from position to the next position before aim and fire, he only missed with one round out of 8 shots , a body has no resistance once unconscious. it would be a fair assumption the shots were at measured timings on each re-aim, and in assessing each aim he would also of clearly seen the guys head in bits even tho it all happened in seconds he still would of seen the chunks of brain blown out, yet he keeps on pulling the trigger.

 

Letting the firearms team have an hour in the police canteen together before giving their statements was criminal and a clear breach of protocol.

And the subsequent cover-up and suppression of the story clearly shows to me that the officer/s acted unlawfully at some point, its the no-ones responsible attitude of todays authorities that scare me, and the instant smear campaign the minute they kill by mistake.

 

Another example is the drunk guy at the demo in london, who had his insides ruptured thru clear police brutality, did anyone take responsibility for that, instead they initiate an immediate cover-up and smear campaign.

 

And the scary thing is it could be anyone of you, or your kids it happens to when the police can close ranks and get away with murder, no matter whether the original intent was honourable, the failure to admit mistakes and do a nu labour smear and whitewash has to cease for public confidence in authority.

All in my opinion ofcourse.

 

ps

As you say Dr Kelly is for another day, and another in a long line of tonys skeletons in cupboards that will eventually be uncovered, just hope i am still alive to see it.

 

 

pps

 

Would any one care to view what is without doubt the best analyzation of the court transcripts and evidence i have ever seen on the net, they are picked apart in minute detail.

I will add links if so, and you can comment there directly if you wish..

Its by a pathologist and others into lockerbie.

Edited October 1, 2010 by manxman2

[al4x]

I take your point, and had already considered that angle.

 

But these armed police are the cream of the cream, and i can safely discount brain freeze.

One thing, the shots from that close deliver massive impact energy, shooting a man in the face neck and head 7 times, takes time, as the target gets blasted from position to the next position before aim and fire, he only missed with one round out of 8 shots , a body has no resistance once unconscious. it would be a fair assumption the shots were at measured timings on each re-aim, and in assessing each aim he would also of clearly seen the guys head in bits even tho it all happened in seconds.

 

Letting the firearms team have an hour in the police canteen together before giving their statements was criminal and a clear breach of protocol.

 

 

have you ever fired a gun?

 

close range the target will not be blasted all over the place especially if his head is on the floor. There is a very good reason for that many shots and that is he was a suspected suicide bomber so potentially had a trigger to set a bomb off so they would have been doing everything possible to imobilize him and stop any reactions in his hands etc. I hate to think what I'd do being put in that situation where you either let the guy get on a tube train with passengers or aim to stop him by the only sensible way. This was a week after they had done it for real and London was ******** itself. Yes there was a mistake made but had it stopped another tube bombing we wouldn't be having this conversation, Hindsight is one thing, believing SO19 set out to shoot innocent people is another. Look at the stats on how many shouts they get, how often they draw guns and how often they shoot anyone and it shows how professional they are and certainly not trigger happy. In this instance they went in for the stop and took him out as they would have been trained to do 8 shots wouldn't have been a mistake.

[manxman2]

have you ever fired a gun?

 

close range the target will not be blasted all over the place especially if his head is on the floor. There is a very good reason for that many shots and that is he was a suspected suicide bomber so potentially had a trigger to set a bomb off so they would have been doing everything possible to imobilize him and stop any reactions in his hands etc. I hate to think what I'd do being put in that situation where you either let the guy get on a tube train with passengers or aim to stop him by the only sensible way. This was a week after they had done it for real and London was ******** itself. Yes there was a mistake made but had it stopped another tube bombing we wouldn't be having this conversation, Hindsight is one thing, believing SO19 set out to shoot innocent people is another. Look at the stats on how many shouts they get, how often they draw guns and how often they shoot anyone and it shows how professional they are and certainly not trigger happy. In this instance they went in for the stop and took him out as they would have been trained to do 8 shots wouldn't have been a mistake.

 

you are mixing up the brazillian lad with the other, i was talking about the earlier killing, when the lad was sat in te back of the car, not menendez.

 

 

Ive fired close to, if not a million cartridges in 35 yr, as i was a government sponsored fulltime {march to sept} vermin {corvid} shooter for 3 years, prior to that i was acommitted decoyer who handed in so many heads that i was chosen to do the job for government, after the new minister of the department changed the budget and i lost the sponsorship i again settled for committed decoyer, i also represented the island at english skeet in inter island games.

 

I also know fulwell what it feels like to be on the wrong end of a 12 guage.

As i am only the second person on the island to have been shot by accident and survived, te only other ive known was a painter who blew his arm off, taking the gun out of his carboot., my shooting partner loaded his gun behind me, and it went off, i was knocked 2 paces forward and everything started to buzz and i just wanted to lie down, i had picked up half the load of a eley olympic trap in @ss and hip, no pain at all and very little blood either, just lots and lots of little lumps, like nettle stings, not at any point not even in hospital the following fortnight was there any pain, only embarrassment, as i bent over a chair each morning and all the trainee nurses came for a look at yours trulys gunshot wound, the reason the doc said was because they will probably go thru their whole carreer and never see another, that was over 30yrs ago, how times have changed.

 

The reason i moaned to the doc was because i knew most of the trainees as its a small island{45k pop then} and bent over with my tackle hanging on display was more painful than an @ss full of birdshot.

Even tho they removed and stitched up where the flyers went, they left the rest insitu, as they are up against the bone and to deep, an x ray is like a starry night, but i could not afford a copy at the time, the cost was a weeks wages then, truly they asked for something like £50 if i wanted a copy.

 

ps

The irony was it was a competition gun i had loaned him for a days decoying out of a bail hide.

 

I had just jumped over the front 3 bales and had just started walking with the dog to to decoys to tidy up, and whack.

 

Moral is dont lend guns with no autosafety catch to plums.

Edited October 1, 2010 by manxman2

[guest1957]

New development: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11455884

[vulpicide]

The worms are wriggling out the can!

[al4x]

Sort of look at the facts there was a guy on the loose targetting policemen and these guys had a non lethal taser could be fired from beyond a shotguns effective range. They obviously thought it would help as did the force on the ground, seems the paperwork wasn't fully in place but really the police and everyone should have double checked that first.

[manxman2]

Sort of look at the facts there was a guy on the loose targetting policemen and these guys had a non lethal taser could be fired from beyond a shotguns effective range. They obviously thought it would help as did the force on the ground, seems the paperwork wasn't fully in place but really the police and everyone should have double checked that first.

 

Yeah deffo technical rather than criminal, but strange the guy has taken it so bad as to top himself.

[Fishermanpaddy]

There would probably be less aggro if they had just used a good old fasioned slug instead of a taser.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Fishermanpaddy

[DSPUK]

A company director who is believed to have committed suicide ??

 

Who found him ? the police who shot Moat ??

 

Another cover up coming ??

[carlosdesilva]

police are only human and humans continually mess up, doesnt matter what job your in what responsibilities you have people mess up, bend the rules,lie.From the top down,wether its being in charge of a gun or a country people will mess up lie and try to cover their tracks,not saying i think police are wrong in this instance but dont think just cos someone is in a job of importance that they are beyond bending the rules and messing up.

[death from below]

All hail the PW keyboard warriors - able to sort out the wrongs of this world in one fell swoop of a post - what makes me luagh is how some on here reckon they are super experts on a subject because they manage to dig up some third hand account of a poorly written press article. Just remember there is not such a thing as an accident and there will be a proportion of 'blame' etc on all sides.

 

One last thing - as for police getting together to conduct some sort of conspiracy by sitting in a canteen and consulting with each other, for your info this is a perfectly acceptable form of post incident procedure that has gone on since evidence was first submitted by police. Both sides of counsel understand the principles around evidence writing which is something entirely different to conspiring to tell lies.

[manxman2]

Well you could call it a suppression of evidence,

 

No could call it suppression about it, either it was/is, or it was not.

 

 

 

but then I would suspect the law was brought in to protect the methods used by police and other security services. Afterall their methods wouldn't be much use if plastered all over the papers, and coroners courts are public places.

 

What laws are you refering to, could you be more specific, generalising never really helps, and is only used when people try to hand-wave away evidence they dont like, an example being in woo woo land its always !! THEY !! who are out to get us or keeping secrets.

 

 

It's a totally different scenario to the David Kelly case (although I do agree with you that Kelly's death does raise serious concerns) in that an inquest was instigated, though brought to an abrupt end due to the legal issues raised.

 

All hail the PW keyboard warriors - able to sort out the wrongs of this world in one fell swoop of a post - what makes me luagh is how some on here reckon they are super experts on a subject because they manage to dig up some third hand account of a poorly written press article. Just remember there is not such a thing as an accident and there will be a proportion of 'blame' etc on all sides.

 

Laugh equally as much as those who see folk like yourself just handwave away any responsibility on the polices behalf.

 

One last thing - as for police getting together to conduct some sort of conspiracy by sitting in a canteen and consulting with each other, for your info this is a perfectly acceptable form of post incident procedure that has gone on since evidence was first submitted by police. Both sides of counsel understand the principles around evidence writing which is something entirely different to conspiring to tell lies.

 

And where are the black kids human rights, his mother and families basics human right to know how and why the state murdered her child/brother, why was he different to Dr kelly, why has it taken 5 years to announce an inquiry, Dr Kellys inquiry was announced within 2 hours of blair officially being informed of Kellys death.

 

And this is what the IPPCC thinks about policemen and teams being given time to discuss serious events between themselves before making a statement.

 

 

IPCC recommended it should be banned after Harry Stanley was shot dead while carrying a chair leg. Machover describes the conferring as "scandalous" and a decision that will "blight the whole process, leaving a suspicion for the family that they will never be able to get to the truth of what happened, because the accounts of the officers may have been contaminated by discussion of their evidence before it was committed to writing".

 

 

And you never touched on the instant smear campaign of their innocent dead victims, are these the police you want to safe guard your kids on the streets of london, where closing ranks and deceit pass for policing.

 

There are no excuses, we are in this situation because of weak as shiit political leadership, heads should have rolled and careers lost right at the very top, not the footsoldiers, Integrity you need to see to believe both in actions performed and words spoken.

Edited October 2, 2010 by manxman2

[kdubya]

A company director who is believed to have committed suicide ??

 

Who found him ? the police who shot Moat ??

 

Another cover up coming ??

 

 

perhaps more a case of a probably decent man losing his business due to "procedure and protocol "following a press witchunt of the police and their handling of the event, and a simple fact that a scumbag who deserved every thing if not more than he got!! managed to bring about the death of yet another man.

 

KW

[poontang]

No could call it suppression about it, either it was/is, or it was not.

 

As I said you could call it suppression............I prefer to think of it as upholding the law.

 

 

 

 

 

What laws are you refering to, could you be more specific, generalising never really helps, and is only used when people try to hand-wave away evidence they dont like, an example being in woo woo land its always !! THEY !! who are out to get us or keeping secrets.

 

This one:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/contents