klatuveradanikto Posted September 29, 2010 Report Share Posted September 29, 2010 Hi Chaps, got a problem this evening when i went to collect a Browning Gold semi auto that i purchased yesterday and got delivered via R.F.D network. When going through the strip down procedure for the gun it was noted that the magazine was not :crimped or proofed: however it has been plugged and glued ,i was told that due to the lack of proof mark and crimping on the mag tube i could not have the gun till confirmation of it's legality as a section 2 was resolved . So a phone call to the dealer in Bucks was made and they said they would get in touch with Browning to confirm it was and always has been a section 2 gun ,my RFD said it needed to clear the status of the gun with Cheshire police and a option of having the gun proofed and crimped is there however at a cost to me (not happy) So i'm left with a grey gun with unknown legality 375 out of pocket although i will seek a full refund should the whole thing become to tricky to deal with. My question is what makes a mag thats been plugged and glued to section 2 requirements presumably since new now subject to investigation should the dealer of been aware of this potential problem ,confused piggy in the middle . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted September 29, 2010 Report Share Posted September 29, 2010 hi. Seemes to me you intended to buy a section 2 firearm and approached the seller in this way. If the gun has to be changed to meet the spec you intended to buy then the seller should not have sold it to you as a section 2 if there was ANY possibility it was a grey gun he must have known about this. I would ask the police to confirm this for you and seek a refund. If the guy gets awkward you should refer him to the police for breaking the law in selling you a grey gun without the proper procedure for a section 1 firearm, if it proves to be necessary to change the gun to meet section 2 requirements then it must have been known it was potentially a section 1. Are you a member of BASC? If so seek their advice. In my humble view you should get all your cash back as you sought to purchase in good faith. best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klatuveradanikto Posted September 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2010 hi.Seemes to me you intended to buy a section 2 firearm and approached the seller in this way. If the gun has to be changed to meet the spec you intended to buy then the seller should not have sold it to you as a section 2 if there was ANY possibility it was a grey gun he must have known about this. I would ask the police to confirm this for you and seek a refund. If the guy gets awkward you should refer him to the police for breaking the law in selling you a grey gun without the proper procedure for a section 1 firearm, if it proves to be necessary to change the gun to meet section 2 requirements then it must have been known it was potentially a section 1. Are you a member of BASC? If so seek their advice. In my humble view you should get all your cash back as you sought to purchase in good faith. best of luck HI Kes waiting for a phone call tomorrow now from my local dealer who has the gun he is going to talk with the police and see where we go from there would you know if crimping is the standard for restricting mag tubes or is plugging and glueing a reasonable method of acheiving the same within the law not a member of BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted September 29, 2010 Report Share Posted September 29, 2010 If the gluing is "permanent" as much as is reasonably possible then I can't see an issue. If you would have to go to serious effort to change it then IMO it's no different to a crimp, but if the plug could just be levered out/ fall out then that is a different matter. All IMO of course, I'm not a firearms legal expert! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klatuveradanikto Posted September 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2010 Thats really how i see it ,if i had'nt been made aware of the issue i would never of know about it ,any way even with a crimp if someone wanted to change the capacity of the mag it really is'nt a difficult job, crimp or no crimp ,but now the issue has been raised it really has to be resolved permanently as i may never be able to sell if i accept the gun and my local police are happy with it as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted September 30, 2010 Report Share Posted September 30, 2010 Just tell him to crimp it himself, and then you will buy it. Simples. If not, full refund! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve0146 Posted September 30, 2010 Report Share Posted September 30, 2010 I used to have a browning semi auto. Cleaning it one day, the plug just fell out. It had been glued. The gun then held 5 shells instead of three. Not good. Luckily I sold it to a dealer who fixed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 30, 2010 Report Share Posted September 30, 2010 don't get too agro with the seller sounds like its not that unusual all the police need to do is in theory look it up on the computer and it will tell them as long as its down as section 2 there should be no issue. Its plugged so you can't take more than 2 in the tube so in theory all good. Sounds like you have a concientious dealer just making sure its all done by the book. Fortunately you got the gun at a good price so fingers crossed you don't need it proofed just because they are being pedantic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klatuveradanikto Posted September 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2010 Update chaps, after checking with Browning they cannot find any record of whether the gun was made like this or not, so Cheshire police have said no it's a section 1 after discussion with the original dealer they have agreed to pay for the crimping and proofing already had this cost refunded so decided to go ahead and have gun ,unfortunately it won't be done till maybe the end of October but i'm in no rush anyway so as one poster stated i think my local dealer was being very cautious but where legality of guns is concerned i'm for that everytime ,even with a bit of inconvenience thanks for all your responses regards, Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZ550Kevlar Posted September 30, 2010 Report Share Posted September 30, 2010 All this talk of crimping and gluing, i can`t personally see the problem, i hold an escort semi which has a spacer in it restricting it to a 2+1, but in the box is the smaller spacer to increase the capacity, the longer plug just falls out, i also have a remmington 870 pump action 2+1 and with that one all i have to do is unscrew the cap drop the spring out and remove an orange plastic stick with round discs at each end to increase the capacity, I mentioned this to my FEO and he said it`s "abit naughty" including the bits wit the escort to increase capacity and the 870 having a spacer designed like that but said don`t worry about it. Seems like alot of panic based on my experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy1403 Posted September 30, 2010 Report Share Posted September 30, 2010 , I mentioned this to my FEO and he said it`s "abit naughty" including the bits wit the escort to increase capacity and the 870 having a spacer designed like that but said don`t worry about it.Seems like alot of panic based on my experiences. seems to be another case of a FEO making his own laws again. the law states to be classed as a section 2 shotgun the mag tube has to be permanently restricted to hold only 2 carts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSPUK Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 I was under the impression the only way was crimping as it's not reversible and it also needs proof marks - wasn't there some questions about the WinSX2/3 in the fact you could get three 2" cartridges up mag - might have been three inch mag version - you would knowingly be breaking the law. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesbach Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 dont have a semi myself, heard many a story of 3.5inch mags accepting many more than the "3 or 5 shot" they are sold as. doesnt seem to be any law against it, but sometimes you wonder why..! time to join basc..great cover and peace of mind but more importantly, good advice at times like these! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZ550Kevlar Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 I got a note put in my file at Kent Police saying that i had asked the question, now i`m more covered than a covered that that is really well covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 If it's done by the manufacturer out of the country and not readily convertable ie: unscrew the end cap and remove a spacer it does not need to be to the proof house standards. The magazine capacity is designated using the cartridges it was made and proofed for , Not using shorter cartridges 2" in a 3" etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 Hi. Glad you managed to get it sorted amicably - always the best way but not always possible. Just a little story about my Beretta Extrema. When I bought it I noted it took 3 no 31/2" magnums, also 4 no 21/2 " and 5 no 2" without any modification. Fearful as you were that this was going to be a section 1 shotgun, I called and spoke to my FEO. He asked what the gun was fabricated for - obviously 3and a 1/2 inch magnum - he said, in that case it complys with the law, irrespective of the larger number of other, shorter cartridges it would take. He confirmed it was a section 2 and NOT a section 1 firearm. Sometimes I think our firearms laws are a bit daft, especially when you consider the interpretation some police forces put on them. Still, all's well that ends well. Well done, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 Hi. Glad you managed to get it sorted amicably - always the best way but not always possible. Just a little story about my Beretta Extrema. When I bought it I noted it took 3 no 31/2" magnums, also 4 no 21/2 " and 5 no 2" without any modification. Fearful as you were that this was going to be a section 1 shotgun, I called and spoke to my FEO. He asked what the gun was fabricated for - obviously 3and a 1/2 inch magnum - he said, in that case it complys with the law, irrespective of the larger number of other, shorter cartridges it would take. He confirmed it was a section 2 and NOT a section 1 firearm. Sometimes I think our firearms laws are a bit daft, especially when you consider the interpretation some police forces put on them. Still, all's well that ends well. Well done, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klatuveradanikto Posted October 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 seems to me your FEO is rally lax personally i'd rather have the trouble and be legit then go down the aahh well route!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Elvis Posted October 2, 2010 Report Share Posted October 2, 2010 I didnt read all through this but must brownings are made with a 5 shot capacity and "crimped" in the factory.Then when you want to have it made to an fac it is sent to Browning and they remove the factory crimp and voila its a five shot!!! If its not currently registered as a section one, and you cant get 5 carts in it you are ok!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoughton Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Hi. Glad you managed to get it sorted amicably - always the best way but not always possible. Just a little story about my Beretta Extrema. When I bought it I noted it took 3 no 31/2" magnums, also 4 no 21/2 " and 5 no 2" without any modification. Fearful as you were that this was going to be a section 1 shotgun, I called and spoke to my FEO. He asked what the gun was fabricated for - obviously 3and a 1/2 inch magnum - he said, in that case it complys with the law, irrespective of the larger number of other, shorter cartridges it would take. He confirmed it was a section 2 and NOT a section 1 firearm. Sometimes I think our firearms laws are a bit daft, especially when you consider the interpretation some police forces put on them. Still, all's well that ends well. Well done, Yes, that's all quite correct. But be in no doubt it would be illegal to use the Section 2 gun to cycle more than 3 cartridges. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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