Awkward Neighbours

[Kes]

Advice needed please.

My shoot has quite a number of neighbours but particularly a riding school close to one drive.

The owner is 'tetchy' and has suggested that the police will not allow anyone to shoot within 300 metres of a sensitive site. It is also claimed that a school (riding school is pushing it) has an enfrceable 1 KM 'no shooting' zone around it.

 

We all know this is a 'falsehood' and have tried to avoid difficulties by agreeing a time we would start the drive so the school can manage appropriately. The landowner, from whom we both lease land and shooting rights respectively, wishes us to reach an agreement to avoid problems.

 

However, as a friend of the shoot who helps out, I am rapidly losing patience after reaching the initial agreeement and am unwilling now to sit around waiting for the time we agreed to do the drive.

Anyone know what we are legally obliged to do and what would be regarded as a sensible compromise.

As usual, many thanks for the help.

[mossy835]

if your a member of basc, give them a call

[guest1957]

Unless they have a series of 'restricitve covanents' they have no leg to stand on apart from maybe a court claim over a tort of actionable nuisance which they will find hard to prove if your shooting is reasonable. Maybe look at getting a solicitor to pen a letter disputing their claims and pointing out the relevent law.

[Mr_Logic]

They are talking **** - ask them for their justification. Horses DO NOT care about shooting if they can see the shooter. The ones around me trot or canter round for a minute or two and calm down.

[sapper063]

i have no problems where i shoot at a stud farm

[Greymaster]

Send for the cavalry!

[apache]

Why agree a time and then want to shoot at a different time?

 

Just because you're not breaking any laws doesn't mean it pays to upset the neighbours. If you say you will shoot between 12 and 2, do it.

[shakin stevens]

we have the same problem, we pop round every year with all the shoot dates and everybody is happy, i pigeon shoot the same land and the

horses dont seem bothered, chap says it doesnt bother them, but they dont like getting on the horse when they is gun fire around.

[J@mes]

They are talking **** - ask them for their justification. Horses DO NOT care about shooting if they can see the shooter. The ones around me trot or canter round for a minute or two and calm down.

 

 

rediculous comment. My missus is a keen rider (ooh er!!) and has 20 years experience. She has had horses spook because of snails, plastic bags and fence posts, not to mention all the other reasons you would expect. So to say "horses do not care about shooting if they can see the shooter" is daft especially when you consider that the horse could have an inexperienced child on its back.

 

If the land owner leases to you both and you can't come to an agreement, I would be concerned about which one of you gives him the most money and which one of you is most likely to lose your lease.

[al4x]

we have similar and they simply keep the horses in till we've finished that drive. Remember that its a riding school so will have beginners etc and with you being notified of the noise issue were you to cause an accident which resulted in a child being left disabled then I would suggest your insurers would get a complete pasting in court.

You have to get on with neighbours so its go and talk time or blank the birds from that drive into another and don't use it for shooting.

[CharlieT]

I have to agree with apache and alex. You have made arrangements and reached a compromise, so stick with it or if the time is really inconvenient try negociating a new time for your drive.

 

Horses are funny old things, I have one I can fire a shotgun from whilst riding and another that runs a mile if a shot is fired within it's earshot yet both have been with me since foals.

 

Every countryside user has a right to their enjoyment and when interests do conflict a compromise must be reached.

 

An acquaintance of mine in a very similar situation to yourself concluded that his best compromise was to book and pay for a half hour "lesson" on all the school horses whilst the drive was in progress, so the horses could stand in their boxes. The school was happy and he averted ongoing and protracted hastle for a small outlay.

[Mr_Logic]

rediculous comment. My missus is a keen rider (ooh er!!) and has 20 years experience. She has had horses spook because of snails, plastic bags and fence posts, not to mention all the other reasons you would expect. So to say "horses do not care about shooting if they can see the shooter" is daft especially when you consider that the horse could have an inexperienced child on its back.

 

If the land owner leases to you both and you can't come to an agreement, I would be concerned about which one of you gives him the most money and which one of you is most likely to lose your lease.

Horses jump when they hear the first bang, and that's it.

 

My missus has 26 years of riding, I have 10, and I shoot round horses all the time. They jump on the first shot, but settle down thereafter. They tend to get more scared when they can't see the source of the noise or are in a confined environment. Horses in an open field do not care.

 

In this case, riding in the school is likely to be more of an issue, but when the noise is continuous the horses will settle down again. Compromise has been on the table but comments from this horse yard are utter rubbish, so it's clear they just don't like shooting. Therefore, I would renew the offer of compromise but basically make it a take-it-or-leave-it offer.

[al4x]

Horses jump when they hear the first bang, and that's it.

 

My missus has 26 years of riding, I have 10, and I shoot round horses all the time. They jump on the first shot, but settle down thereafter. They tend to get more scared when they can't see the source of the noise or are in a confined environment. Horses in an open field do not care.

 

In this case, riding in the school is likely to be more of an issue, but when the noise is continuous the horses will settle down again. Compromise has been on the table but comments from this horse yard are utter rubbish, so it's clear they just don't like shooting. Therefore, I would renew the offer of compromise but basically make it a take-it-or-leave-it offer.

 

 

shooting on a driven shoot isn't continuous, you also have beaters about so yes you have the first shot that would by your experience spook the horse then they should settle, only takes one spook to ditch a child badly. Yes horses do get used to shooting but it varies animal to animal as to how affected they are, without knowing where the guns are its very hard to say how loud the bangs would be, I've more riding experience than your missus and I'm still careful round horses that don't have riders on, put kids having lessons on board and you have an obvious conflict. Even in fields they will still get wound up at the first shot and if they are young that can entail running through fences etc safest place for them is in a box away from the shooting. The shoot is likely to be a small part of the farmers income so he is unlikely to put up with agro for long and most likely is stopping the shooting on his land. Looking like you are doing something to stop the problem is the only way forward, either driving it a different way or doing away with that drive altogether

[starlight32]

To be honest, the horse mob are the most difficult to please in my opinion. They think the whole world should revolve around them, and as far as I am concerned it is a me,me,me scenario.

 

I have had several debates/discussions over the years and it just ends up all one way.

 

The last one I had was with a woman who had a paddock on a farm together with a shoot I am involved with and she started playing up, saying we can only shoot on given times and all that. I soon went and see the farmer and we broke down the situation as it stands, We pay xxx amount and she pays what?

 

Next to sod all and and a bit slow on paying that as well too the farmer as he told me. End result? Horse woman thrown off and we get the paddock and bang in a rake of game cover right opposite a wood-Lovely result.

 

It is always worth to remember, that if you are also a tenant there be it a shooting one it does not always pay to back down. Alot of this horsey fraternity are all show too, most of them dont have two prennies to rub together.

Edited October 8, 2010 by starlight32

[Mr_Logic]

shooting on a driven shoot isn't continuous, you also have beaters about so yes you have the first shot that would by your experience spook the horse then they should settle, only takes one spook to ditch a child badly. Yes horses do get used to shooting but it varies animal to animal as to how affected they are, without knowing where the guns are its very hard to say how loud the bangs would be, I've more riding experience than your missus and I'm still careful round horses that don't have riders on, put kids having lessons on board and you have an obvious conflict. Even in fields they will still get wound up at the first shot and if they are young that can entail running through fences etc safest place for them is in a box away from the shooting. The shoot is likely to be a small part of the farmers income so he is unlikely to put up with agro for long and most likely is stopping the shooting on his land. Looking like you are doing something to stop the problem is the only way forward, either driving it a different way or doing away with that drive altogether

I am imagining that the shoot is far enough away from the stables that it's not deafeningly loud or anything.

Also, the horses will have been exposed for some time, doesn't sound like this is a new problem.

 

Obviously care is needed around horses, but they are fine in fields. Most of my permissions have horses on them in one form or another, and one place often has foals. I don't shoot right next to them, but they don't get agitated from shots a field away or so.

 

Horses spook at anything, so unless the shoot is right next to the school (doubt it!) there is nothing that is an undue risk. Children riding ponies take. Risk anyway, what about scary coats, loose dogs, leaves being raked, tractors, cars? All can and have scared horses, and none are any less scary to certain animals than shooting. Ultimately if you get on a horse you take a risk. Horses will get used to shooting, simple fact. I've had them come up to me when I've been out with a 22-250 and no mod, and the blighters won't leave me alone. Shooting per se is no issue.

 

Horses which do have a problem with it can be schooled out of it, like any other issue, so I really think the riding place needs to tone it down, a lot.

[Ian750]

To be honest, the horse mob are the most difficult to please in my opinion. They think the whole world should revolve around them, and as far as I am concerned it is a me,me,me scenario.

 

I have had several debates/discussions over the years and it just ends up all one way.

 

The last one I had was with a woman who had a paddock on a farm together with a shoot I am involved with and she started playing up, saying we can only shoot on given times and all that. I soon went and see the farmer and we broke down the situation as it stands, We pay xxx amount and she pays what?

 

Next to sod all and and a bit slow on paying that as well too the farmer as he told me. End result? Horse woman thrown off and we get the paddock and bang in a rake of game cover right opposite a wood-Lovely result.

 

It is always worth to remember, that if you are also a tenant there be it a shooting one it does not always pay to back down. Alot of this horsey fraternity are all show too, most of them dont have two prennies to rub together.

 

Well there's an intelligent opinion if ever I heard one :look: What exactly has how much money someone has, have anything to do with the safety of all concerned? I like Al4x have a great deal of experience with horses and while I am the first to agree the horsey world can be a bitchy disagreeable place to be at times, I really don't see the point of agreeing time for a drive and not sticking to it. You really must understand that this has been quoted as a "riding school" therefore inexperienced people will be around or on animals that are more than capable of killing them. This coupled with the fact that horses are individuals, just like people, you cannot judge how a particular horse will react, especially as many horses actually take confidence from the rider.

I shoot around my own horses, but wouldn't think of shooting around other peoples without a concrete agreement being in place and all owners and riders being completely aware of the situation. IF and I mean IF, there is an accident and either a person or horse is injured and the drive is taking place at a time other than agreed, can you imagine the reaction? Also ask yourself how you would feel if you couldn't guarantee the drive was even partly responsible?

Only my opinion but I do believe the correct course of action has already been pointed out and it starts with agreement and compromise.

[CharlieT]

I am imagining that the shoot is far enough away from the stables that it's not deafeningly loud or anything.

Also, the horses will have been exposed for some time, doesn't sound like this is a new problem.

 

Obviously care is needed around horses, but they are fine in fields. Most of my permissions have horses on them in one form or another, and one place often has foals. I don't shoot right next to them, but they don't get agitated from shots a field away or so.

 

Horses spook at anything, so unless the shoot is right next to the school (doubt it!) there is nothing that is an undue risk. Children riding ponies take. Risk anyway, what about scary coats, loose dogs, leaves being raked, tractors, cars? All can and have scared horses, and none are any less scary to certain animals than shooting. Ultimately if you get on a horse you take a risk. Horses will get used to shooting, simple fact. I've had them come up to me when I've been out with a 22-250 and no mod, and the blighters won't leave me alone. Shooting per se is no issue.

 

Horses which do have a problem with it can be schooled out of it, like any other issue, so I really think the riding place needs to tone it down, a lot.

 

 

By gum Mr Logic, you must be some horse whisperer.

[Kes]

All, thanks for the opinions and advice.

The reason we wanted to vary the time (apache) is that we often have to wait for 1 hour before we can start the drive and in variable weather conditions we would like to vary the drives and order/times of drives. I'd be happy with some flexibility by giving notice. However, the one drive is actually about 50 yds from the closest exercise area. I am symapthetic and hopefully understand and ensure the 2 walking guns are positioned as far away as possible and no stray spent shot falls on the school. The drive lasts maybe 20 minutes from start to finish.

We always shoot on saturdays and thats the day when the riding stables get their biggest income, also child riders. I will be sticking by our existing agreement but I was dissapointed that the owner is so persistently anti-shoot.

Also one of our members went round and was told we could vary the times by a member of staff, if we gave notice - the tenant however would not budge and quoted the non-shooting distances in my post.

 

The majority of the staff there and those who visit are smashing people. I have had riding lessons there to try and get on better terms. £30 per hour - so not economic to book all 20 horses for the preceeding hour !

 

Shoot members (DIY shoot) vary in their approach, much as the posts. Some favour ignoring the horsey people totally. Most feel we compromise and the stables wont.

Still we have a workable solution at the moment which I negotiated.

I just hoped someone might have a 'silver bullet' to solve the problem for me.

Many thanks again, to all.

[Ian750]

Kes, this does sound like an unfortunate situation. Firstly, I know of no 'exclusion zone' around riding stables and it sounds as though the yard owner is extending the truth in this area. I first started riding at a school that bordered on an RAF base and I'm sure the MOD would have taken a dim view of a 1km exclusion zone! However, there is also the consideration of how much notice do you want to give to vary the times of the drives? Riding school customers usually book around a week in advance at a specific time on a specific day. School horses are usually worked for 3-4 hours per day, so if an adjustment of 1 hour is made, this could mean 2 lessons could be lost/disrupted, if it's a 'group' lesson the standard is up to 8 horses per lesson, so, 16x £30 per hour is in jeopardy and you have already said there are 20 horses. It doesn't take a genius to work out why the yard owner is reluctant, but she does sound like she needs to stay within the truth, there is no excuse for 'inventing' laws.

You really should be praised for trying to mediate a difficult situation, but I stand by my previous post that if the unthinkable happened......

Now we know that one drive could be 50 yards from the school, and the clientele of the riding school involves a large proportion of children, I really think this could be a recipe for disaster.

[bullet boy]

if your a member of basc, give them a call

 

Deffo ring BASC.

[webber]

Not far from me is a skeet ground; during the week the grass is grazed by horses. On Saturday morning the horses are transferred to an adjacent field and the shooting ground put to use.

The associated livery stables and riding facility function as normal. The horses are not affected by the noise. The two businesses co exist side by side, but they are run by a husband and wife team.

 

I guess that getting intimate with the owner of the riding school is not an option; but it may be worthwhile exploring the relationship that the riding school has with the farmers in the area. Do they use gas guns? Could they use gas guns? The object being that the horses become more accustomed to the bangs.

Have you searched the web site for the British Horse Society? there may be some useful info there, especially from a horse perspective (start thinking like the enemy). Find out if there is an association for riding schools etc. root out their website, codes of practice etc. who knows what goodies will turn up.

 

Its an awkward situation which needs careful handling. I know of no 1Km. restriction, and 300 yards is the distance commonly quoted to allow the safe fallout of spent shot. I get the impression that the yard tenant is over egging the pudding. I would keep trying to re negotiate the deal that has been done, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

webber

[al4x]

what we do is do the drive thats closest to horses first at 9am that way no hanging arround and once its done the horses get put out again. 50 yards is pretty close to be shooting so best negotiate your way out of it, you had a different view from one of their members of staff but that sadly is like talking to the organ grinders monkey!