Paying for Shooting

[al4x]

Not sure what teal makes of this or any of the mods but it seems like this site is becoming a venue for people to sell a wide range of shooting, some are approaching it like you would a simple money making venture which is fine but in some cases it seems very much like its a definite first attempt at selling various types of shooting and its fairly apparent the money is being split so many ways that the costs are fairly silly at times. Then you get the usual characters trying to suss out from others who are selling a certain type of shooting what they reckon they can get away with charging. I nearly took up a days shooting last year and fortunately wasn't the first to go, those who did had an awful day and all hell broke loose about it.

Probably the bit that started me on with the mixed emotions on the subject was the attempt a selling a particular deer and that to me takes away from most things I enjoy about shooting. This isn't a post to dig at anyones charging more to get a feel whether there needs to be any form of regulation of people selling shooting on here as there are definitely the good the bad and the ugly. To an extent it self regulates as people will report back their findings but with regard to guides having insurance and effectively being trade sellers on here maybe there is another membership type required if you want to sell shooting with a limited form of vetting beforehand. There are some very good offers out there by the people that actually hold the shooting and there are people touting shooting for mates all over the place. Be interesting what other people think about the situation and obviously we are all free to choose what we buy shooting wise

[jonesbach]

Personally, if someone is trying to make a living form it then fine but i agree some advert seem to be guys trying to make a quick buck on their permissions. anyone looking for a day out shooting and just starting up can just ask a member to join them, any decent guy wouldnt mind showing what they know as long as the land owner agreed. ive taken a mates son out a few times and now hes hooked.

 

interesting OP..!!

[goldypurple]

i think personally there is getting to many agents or wanabee agents on this site offering shooting, and not all of it is cheap, compaired with some of the prices charged on guns on pegs or other sites.

[bakerboy]

Not sure what teal makes of this or any of the mods but it seems like this site is becoming a venue for people to sell a wide range of shooting, some are approaching it like you would a simple money making venture which is fine but in some cases it seems very much like its a definite first attempt at selling various types of shooting and its fairly apparent the money is being split so many ways that the costs are fairly silly at times. Then you get the usual characters trying to suss out from others who are selling a certain type of shooting what they reckon they can get away with charging. I nearly took up a days shooting last year and fortunately wasn't the first to go, those who did had an awful day and all hell broke loose about it.

Probably the bit that started me on with the mixed emotions on the subject was the attempt a selling a particular deer and that to me takes away from most things I enjoy about shooting. This isn't a post to dig at anyones charging more to get a feel whether there needs to be any form of regulation of people selling shooting on here as there are definitely the good the bad and the ugly. To an extent it self regulates as people will report back their findings but with regard to guides having insurance and effectively being trade sellers on here maybe there is another membership type required if you want to sell shooting with a limited form of vetting beforehand. There are some very good offers out there by the people that actually hold the shooting and there are people touting shooting for mates all over the place. Be interesting what other people think about the situation and obviously we are all free to choose what we buy shooting wise

 

Hi Al4x

 

I think you have opened a can of worms here and a thread that will run for a long time, and I hope will make interesting and informative reading, with I hope a positive outcome.

 

I offer a form of shooting on the forum, and would have no qualms at being vetted and or regulated.

I do not run it as a money making concern, as stated in my profile.

 

I have had a number of "knockers" stating that I am too cheap and ruining what they are trying to do, most if not all these have come via PM's, so not in the open Forum, but I am big enough, ugly enough, and old enough to cope with this criticism.

 

I charge £25.00 for 3 hours tuition, I am there normally at least an hour before, setting up, and for 1 hour after, making sure everywhere is tidy and ready for the next lesson, most lessons roll into 4 hours to make sure we get a good number of birds.

So all in all about 5/6 hours for £25.00, most of which goes towards the cost of guns I have purchased for the novice to use and equipment, i.e. camo nets, decoys, magnets etc,etc, and if there are no pigeons on the day they get free second shoot, also if the customer feels the lesson was not value for money they have the option not to pay.

 

I hope this answer helps start the debate you are asking for, and I know that your comments were not personnel to me, but to the situation we find arising.

 

I look forward now to spending a lot of time reading with interest the replies that I am sure will flood in.

 

bakerboy

 

Terry

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

al4x

 

I too have been thinking of providing days pigeon shooting and also ferretting with mixed feeling from many forum members etc.

 

When I first joined I was against the whole idear of other paying for days to shoot pigeons but over the last year it has become very clear there is the two sides to this coin .

 

The first being that myself have amounted over 30000 acres over a number of years though pure legwork and connections that some on here would only dream of.

So on that side of the coin I am like many others on here have a a vast amount of acreage to shot over and some would be areas that I and only I shoot the woodies etc for many factors but mostly because of trust that takes years to amount .

So under my guidance it would become available to others due to the landowners would trust me to provide shooters of good nature who respect the land we me keeping a eye on them .

I and others can not provide this service without some form of payment and I am sure you would not work for your boss for nowt just because you liked your job .

 

Now the other side is the have nots in our world for one reason or another have no perms or dont want the every lastly problem of providing a good regular service.

 

And my finally note as pointed out by others on my other thread where they think we are doing the farmer or landowner a favour shooting rabbits or woodies .

 

Lets be 100% clear it is only with the good grace of landowners that we can do this sport with there consent and many can take it or leave .

 

They are doing us more of a favour than us doing them a favour it is a privledge to be allowed to shoot not a right.

I might not like it and others might like but wake up boys there is clearly a need for paid days and the harsh truth is that one day woodie and rabbit shooting may return to only the wealthy doing it.

 

Kind regards OTH

[al4x]

I think you're in the good camp Terry with looking to pass on advice and experience more than make as many bucks out of it as possible.

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I think you're in the good camp Terry with looking to pass on advice and experience more than make as many bucks out of it as possible.

 

Terrys offer is very good and I am right in guessing terry you are retired which changes the whole picture for somebody if there house is paid for and have a penison to live off.

 

Cheers OTH

[Billy.]

I think you're in the good camp Terry with looking to pass on advice and experience more than make as many bucks out of it as possible.

 

Yes, there's a difference between £25 for a days pigeon popping and £150. One covers costs and another pockets you £24-30k a year. - on the basis you take a person shooting 5 out of 7 days a week.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Billy.

[al4x]

I have to say I thought you were a hobby shooter OTH rather than paid pest controller but must have been mistaken.

In your case the charge isn't excessive and you will presumably be sharing it with the landowner so you can see why you need to charge that and it is also you who will be there and passing on knowledge, so though you look like you've had a hard tme on that thread it wasn't aimed in your direction, and this wasn't really a thread to discuss amounts of money its more about people touting shooting thats not theirs directly and just making money out of selling it.

[vampire]

On another forum i use,no one is permitted to sell until they have been vetted by the admin team or certain criteria can be met

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Yes, there's a difference between £25 for a days pigeon popping and £150. One covers costs and another pockets you £24-30k a year. - on the basis you take a person shooting 5 out of 7 days a week.

 

Billy I agree

 

But I am sure Terry retired so can offer that service at that cost .

 

Now a young guy in his 30s with a wife and home like most others 24k to 30k minus your tax as hopfully you will be declaring your income to the taxman minus 4x4 running costs insurance 1k etc.

 

You talk if 24k is a high income its not bad but its no millionaries row and I would think theres a fair few guys knocking this offer who earn more than you projected income.

 

Also I am sure driving a 2005 defender with £650 upgrades is on fair income thereselves to have a pop at somebody letting pigeon days with a projected income of 24k is a bit rich IMHO.

 

 

You will never fill your books 6 days a week 52 weeks of the year as most want weekends so it limits your income .

 

Cheers OTH

Edited October 21, 2010 by Over the hill

[Billy.]

Billy I agree

 

But I am sure Terry retired so can offer that service at that cost .

 

Now a young guy in his 30s with a wife and home like most others 24k to 30k minus your tax as hopfully you will be declaring your income to the taxman minus 4x4 running costs insurance 1k etc.

 

You talk if 24k is a high income its not bad but its no millionaries row and I would think theres a fair few guys knocking this offer who earn more than you projected income.

 

You will never fill your books 6 days a week 52 weeks of the year as most want weekends so it limits your income .

 

Cheers OTH

 

You could fill 2 spaces on a Saturday and 2 on a Sunday and pocket £31k before costs.

 

If you're a gamekeeper and can pick up £24k+ you'll be getting over one and a half times your salary as an added bonus it's a big salary for some people

[Billy.]

Also I am sure driving a 2005 defender with £650 upgrades is on fair income thereselves to have a pop at somebody letting pigeon days with a projected income of 24k is a bit rich IMHO.

 

 

Cheers OTH

 

I'd be careful making assumptions like that. If you think so highly of people because of their possessions you must think some people are millionaires.

 

I sell pigeons and rabbits to restaurants to keep my account from breaching it's overdraft limit. - really rolling it in

[Elby]

How much permission do you have Alex?

[scutt]

the point i take from this is if you are a third party in any deal its a very good get out clause if the buyer aint very happy with the goods like err well he told me it was a good un its not me you should be complaining to its him not me etc.etc.So if you are the seller then the buck stops with you .Then if only direct dealings where alloud then some of the doddgy stuff might be sifted out as you as pw member would get a good or bad reputation .

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I'd be careful making assumptions like that. If you think so highly of people because of their possessions you must think some people are millionaires.

 

I sell pigeons and rabbits to restaurants to keep my account from breaching it's overdraft limit. - really rolling it in

 

Yes but you also are making assumptions on others income your projected income of 24k to 30 k is high .

 

So whats your day job Billy this is not a dig but a geninue question.

 

Cheers OTH

[bakerboy]

Terrys offer is very good and I am right in guessing terry you are retired which changes the whole picture for somebody if there house is paid for and have a penison to live off.

 

Cheers OTH

You are right, retired and trying to keep out of the house for fear of having to work within it.

Putting a little something back into the sport I have enjoyed for 50 years or so.

bakerboy

Terry

[al4x]

How much permission do you have Alex?

 

 

enough, and don't mind paying for more but what seems to be happening more and more on here is people touting third parties shooting and presumably making money out of it, some of these don't come accross as having much in the way of knowledge of certain aspects of what they are selling, In your case you are offering shooting on your own ground at a reasonable price which I have no issue with and quite probably will see if you have a goose day available at some point. Were you charging 3 times the amount and the shooting with a "mate" the other end of the country then you'd be included but you aren't

There are some really good reasonable offers on here but there are a fair few that aren't, there are also a lot of beginners who are easily exploited. Its a tough one but from a few threads recently it seemed a fair few people were starting to feel the same about certain offers not being good ones.

[Billy.]

Yes but you also are making assumptions on others income your projected income of 24k to 30 k is high .

 

So whats your day job Billy this is not a dig but a geninue question.

 

Cheers OTH

 

I work as a recruitment consultant. If you know anything about this industry, it's a low basic salary plus commission.

 

What people suddenly think is that 'commision = $$$$$' but it doesn't. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

I earn the same salary now as I did when I was 16, pushing paper. How depressing? I've earned more working elsewhere, but through the hard times and a couple of redundancies, I'm back (financially) to square 1.

 

Do I think £24k is a good salary? Put it this way, I wish I was earning £24k.

[Blackbart]

Well i was going to offer a day for 2 on our shoot but i will see how this thread goes first.

 

 

There are more and more "shooting for sale" ads appearing and i think alex is right on some of them as in people trying to sell on with a few quid for themselves, but does that make it wrong ?I am not sure,maybe.

 

Then again some people use the site almost solely to sell stuff and post something for sale every other day almost.

 

on the shooting side has anybody bought days and been pleased/dissapointed ?

 

It would be good to hear the good and bad.

[Billy.]

Well i was going to offer a day for 2 on our shoot but i will see how this thread goes first.

 

 

There are more and more "shooting for sale" ads appearing and i think alex is right on some of them as in people trying to sell on with a few quid for themselves, but does that make it wrong ?I am not sure,maybe.

 

Then again some people use the site almost solely to sell stuff and post something for sale every other day almost.

 

on the shooting side has anybody bought days and been pleased/dissapointed ?

 

It would be good to hear the good and bad.

 

I think there's a real difference though, as an offer of shooting, from someone like you would go down well, as you've been on here for a while and people know who you are. If you get someone with 20-30 posts who has mainly been selling stuff and is pushing for a £150 pigeon shooting day, it's a tad iffy and *probably* leads to al4x posting a thread like this.

 

I think it's when there's a clear profit to be had in an opportunity that devalues the offer and can prey on the newer people to the sport.

 

Although; if someone came on here and said £150 for a days pigeon shooting and you will get a monster bag or 400 missed birds then there's a justified reason why, as the person has land which will guarantee that you shoot more pigeons than you can anywhere else (I hope you get where I'm going with this)

Edited October 21, 2010 by Billy.

[955i]

On a slightly different slant (and I'm sure one that will prove unpopular with some), part of the reason for so many people starting to sell days is the amount of people who are willing to pay.

 

Now I would imagine that most of these people would prefer having their own permission than paying to use someone elses, but in the sport there seem to be a large number of 'land hoarders' who are constantly after new land even though they already have more than they can effectively shoot.

 

In some areas, I would imagine that these people have the surrounding land sewn up tighter than a gnats chuff and therefore make it extremely difficult for anyone else to secure land, forcing them to have to pay if they want to get out shooting.

 

Not having a personal pop as this is merely being used as an example, but Over the Hill claims more than 30,000 acres of land that he shoots and I would be surprised if anyone can efficiently shoot that much land alone unless they are unemployed and can go shooting every day, in which case I would be interested to know how they afford the cartridges for such amounts of shooting (of course they may be retired, which is a different proposition).

 

His idea of offering paid days could be seen as someone trying to cover their costs and giving people with no land an opportunity to shoot, which is admirable as long as the land will provide a good days sport for the 'clients'.

 

Conversely, the cynical mind could see it as getting people to pay to help keep land clear that you could not otherwise do as you have overstretched yourself on what you have agreed to take on due to the desire to hoard as much land as possible and this being the only realistic way of keeping it.

 

I know there are many variables that come into play on this, and I would like to reiterate that this is not a personal slight on OTH, merely that the amount of land he has provided a valid illustration of the point i was trying to make

Edited October 21, 2010 by 955i

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

On a slightly different slant (and I'm sure one that will prove unpopular with some), part of the reason for so many people starting to sell days is the amount of people who are willing to pay.

 

Now I would imagine that most of these people would prefer having their own permission than paying to use someone elses, but in the sport there seem to be a large number of 'land hoarders' who are constantly after new land even though they already have more than they can effectively shoot.

 

In some areas, I would imagine that these people have the surrounding land sewn up tighter than a gnats chuff and therefore make it extremely difficult for anyone else to secure land, forcing them to have to pay if they want to get out shooting.

 

Not having a personal pop as this is merely being used as an example, but Over the Hill claims more than 30,000 acres of land that he shoots and I would be surprised if anyone can efficiently shoot that much land alone unless they are unemployed and can go shooting every day, in which case I would be interested to know how they afford the cartridges for such amounts of shooting (of course they may be retired, which is a different proposition).

 

His idea of offering paid days could be seen as someone trying to cover their costs and giving people with no land an opportunity to shoot, which is admirable as long as the land will provide a good days sport for the 'clients'.

 

Conversely, the cynical mind could see it as getting people to pay to help keep land clear that you could not otherwise do as you have overstretched yourself on what you have agreed to take on due to the desire to hoard as much land as possible and this being the only realistic way of keeping it.

 

I know there are many variables that come into play on this, and I would like to reiterate that this is not a personal slight on OTH, merely that the amount of land he has provided a valid illustration of the point i was trying to make

 

Very good reply I do have somewhere in the region of 30000 acres but its not sewn up ,but more that landowners are only willing to have a select few to shoot or ferret for a numbers of reasons.

 

Mainly TRUST TRUST we all know of cowboys who leave cartridges everwhere or lurch rabbits and catch a partridge or two with them.

Who would want this sort of type on there land not me so why take a risk when you can have a regular guy who you know well.Rather than a guy knocking on your door who in the first instance you know nowt about.

 

Most farmers would rather have there crops wiped out rather than take a chance on a newbie .

 

So paid days offer the farmer peace of mind that his crops will be protected but also lose the headache of shooters using his land.

 

Yes I struggle to cover 30000 acres but there are a few others who use the land but some is soley mine for the above reasons .

 

Cheers OTH

[Elby]

enough, and don't mind paying for more but what seems to be happening more and more on here is people touting third parties shooting and presumably making money out of it, some of these don't come accross as having much in the way of knowledge of certain aspects of what they are selling, In your case you are offering shooting on your own ground at a reasonable price which I have no issue with and quite probably will see if you have a goose day available at some point. Were you charging 3 times the amount and the shooting with a "mate" the other end of the country then you'd be included but you aren't

There are some really good reasonable offers on here but there are a fair few that aren't, there are also a lot of beginners who are easily exploited. Its a tough one but from a few threads recently it seemed a fair few people were starting to feel the same about certain offers not being good ones.

I agree mate, there are plenty of chancers out there, they soon get found out though.

The shooting community is a small one and bad news travels fast.

I know of agents that are sitting guys in a hide and they have had 2 shots all day and still putting their hands out for £125-150 for the day.

The only clients these end up with are foreigners unfortunately, I don't like the idea of anybody leaving a shoot with a bitter taste in their mouth.

We went goose shooting this morning, it was **** even though the geese had been on there all week, I still had to be up at 5am but didn't charge anybody.

I suppose it's really a case of buyer beware.

As far as advertising on here I would be happy to make some sort of contribution to the site either by way of money or taking the mods for a free day.

I think also without agents selling days some people would have no shooting at all.

[Billy.]

or taking the mods for a free day.

 

I think you've just signed your life away...

 

Wait for the PM about "We're going to have to ban you unless this free day is offered soon"

 

Edited October 21, 2010 by Billy.