Variation/open licence question.

[foxbuster]

Morning all, was wondering if i put in for a variation from .222 to .22-250 or 243 would i start on a 'closed licence' e.g. have to submit permission forms again for these calibres again or would it stay as open??

[Colster]

Only your FEO can answer that one.

[Kes]

Morning,

I have the same problem apparently upgrading from .223 to .243. Initially though I had a .22 for 5 years prior to applying for a .22 and a .223, mods for both, and an FAC air rifle.

All were approved on my first application after the initial one, which lapsed about 20 years previously.

I then applied for a variation to make the cert open (After 2/3 years) and to increase .223 ammo held. The variation was approved and no cost was charged. I am sure I should be able to get a .243 as my permission (on which the FAC approval was based) is cleared for a .243 but expect a condition would be applied which would specify 'when accompanied' for deer. In Cheshire, on approval of a second FAC you are entitled to apply for it to be 'open after about 12 months apparently. I will probably be restricted to the permission with a .243 for 12 months.

It is a postcode lottery and responses will apparently vary depending on where you are.

 

In truth therefore the previous post is therefore correct but, and its a big one, the response you get may not be in accordance with the Home Office Guidance ( Pinned at the head of this forum).

 

If you are a BASC member, their firearms advice will help you to know what response you should be getting according to the Guidance. They will also act on your behalf if you dont get what you should. Other organisations will also, help the NGO for example.

My personal view would be that you could expect, as a minimum, if you have had an open cert for some time AND your permission is cleared for a .243, you should get one conditioned for vermin on your permission or with a condition off permission of 'when accompanied'. The larger calibre would possibly be restricted for 12 months and then made open, as per the rest of your cert.

Ask BASC/NGO etc first and say you are considering membership - if the advice is good, join; they will help if you have problems later.

 

Those what dont ask, dont get.

 

Best of luck

[David BASC]

Remember; with a 'closed' ticket you can still shoot over any land you have permission for, provided that land is already cleared for your caliber or higher.

 

If they try to slap a condition on your license for deer; there is no legal basis for this, but some licensing teams like to act up as soon as you mention deer!.

 

If they do condition your ticket then ask what you have to do to get that condition removed.

 

David

[al4x]

simple answer foxbuster is probably not as you've had open centrefires before, I've just renewed and my ticket has been opened and at the same time I added a .243 and that is open as well. I have an interesting condition of Stalking while accompanied but doesn't mention by who or whether they need any experience at all or whether being accompanied by my dog would do

[njc110381]

I have an interesting condition of Stalking while accompanied but doesn't mention by who or whether they need any experience at all or whether being accompanied by my dog would do

 

 

That's a silly condition - one of the best I've heard I recon!

 

It's hard to tell whether the OP would come into bother? I'd suggest that if the force are fussy then the .22-250 would probably be ok but when upping the calibre to .243 that may be a problem? Gloucestershire seem very reasonable and once I had my 6.5x55 open everything I've asked for since has been open too. Current upgrades have been 7mm, .300 Win Mag and .338 Win Mag. The latter did call for a new land check but when submitted they probably looked at the map and decided a large valley covering half of Gloucestershire was as good a place as any and didn't bother? Either that or the status of the land owner made them twitchy and they didn't want to impose?

 

I guess the easiest thing to do would be to ask your FEO. Only he knows the forces thoughts on the matter.

[Devon Fox]

I went from open 222 to open 243 with no issues (D&C) - granted that was 5 years ago approx'.

 

I would speak to your local feo as advised, nobody really knows what the score is at the moment as they seem to all operate differently.

 

My last ticket review I was told that you only have to submit one permission record to show need of gun & it stayed open, I was told not to bother sending in all permission slips.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Hot-Shot

[barrelsniffer]

Ref "If you are a BASC member, their firearms advice will help you to know what response you should be getting according to the Guidance. They will also act on your behalf if you dont get what you should. Other organisations will also, help the NGO for example"

 

I was in BASC for quite a few yrs..and when i wanted help with Cheshire .. they were not helpful at all, so am now with NGO for half the price and have them dealing with cheshire on my behalf...just as BASC promised..??...

 

Mick

[Redgum]

There is no legally set time limit on when a license can be 'opened, its up to your firearm department. When I was granted a 243 I already had .22lr and .17hmr as an open condition. The 243 started as closed condition, I wasnt bothered because my main permission with deer on it had to be checked and passed for 243 as it was the grounds for my variation. Six months later I had a chance of some deer shooting on some unchecked ground out of county, I wrote to my FEO and it was opened. It really depends on how you approach it and your local police force.

[NorfolkPoacher]

not meaning to stir things up too much but i have recently contested my FLD decision to allow me an open ticket for rim fire and a closed ticket for centre fire. having had my ticket for a number of years i personally feel there is is no need for open/closed tickets. my argument being, if they are happy to allow us the use of potentially lethal long range rifles on certified land providing we use the correct protocol regarding safety and shot placement. and we are deemed safe by the FLD then what difference does it make as to which areas we do/do not shoot due to public access, houses etc etc. im sure we all have areas on our permissions that we will never shoot due to the lack of a safe shot. so why do the FLD think that we will all of a suden become a danger to society the second we venture onto un certified ground??. in my opinion your either safe and responsible using extreme caution and precise judgement or you dont have acces to firearms.

Dave

[al4x]

that is a whole different argument and as you say its a load of bullocks. Strangely BASC seem to use it as reasoning for people getting a centrefire on initial grant deeming its ok if the land has been checked to be safe. In my opinion no land is safe or very very little in the uk where you could use a centrefire without thinking of backstops etc and not run the risk of putting one through a house or walker etc. We all have to make decisions from day 1 with a firearm and the land makes little difference if someone is making the wrong shots.

[barrelsniffer]

that is a whole different argument and as you say its a load of bullocks. Strangely BASC seem to use it as reasoning for people getting a centrefire on initial grant deeming its ok if the land has been checked to be safe. In my opinion no land is safe or very very little in the uk where you could use a centrefire without thinking of backstops etc and not run the risk of putting one through a house or walker etc. We all have to make decisions from day 1 with a firearm and the land makes little difference if someone is making the wrong shots.

 

Very true mate.

 

I have been mentoring a mate for past 2 yrs now he applied for his fac..sep last yr ..the land he put down was his own perm which after 10 months of wait.."yes my mate was dragging his heels i know " they came back and said the land isnt suitable..i would say it is ok for upto 17hmr..anyway.

 

So they said NO back at square one..so as my mate knows the landowners that i shoot for, through me i asked them to help which they did and gave him written perm for a few farms.

 

These farms i know back 10 yrs ago were passed for 243..when i first enquired back then..before i went open..now my mate has handed the perms in and now the police have to do another land check ?

 

Now ive heard that every 5 yrs the land checks get binned ie removed from records is this true ? seems like it in this case as why would they have to do it all again.

 

Oh and they went out again 2 month back now..this is wales police...and merseyside police are still waiting for the outcome...my mate is now over a yr waiting for fac...and has had a shotty licence for 15 yrs...

 

Mick

[Redgum]

Very true mate.

 

I have been mentoring a mate for past 2 yrs now he applied for his fac..sep last yr ..the land he put down was his own perm which after 10 months of wait.."yes my mate was dragging his heels i know " they came back and said the land isnt suitable..i would say it is ok for upto 17hmr..anyway.

 

So they said NO back at square one..so as my mate knows the landowners that i shoot for, through me i asked them to help which they did and gave him written perm for a few farms.

 

These farms i know back 10 yrs ago were passed for 243..when i first enquired back then..before i went open..now my mate has handed the perms in and now the police have to do another land check ?

 

Now ive heard that every 5 yrs the land checks get binned ie removed from records is this true ? seems like it in this case as why would they have to do it all again.

 

Oh and they went out again 2 month back now..this is wales police...and merseyside police are still waiting for the outcome...my mate is now over a yr waiting for fac...and has had a shotty licence for 15 yrs...

 

Mick

Interestin this one, I was told by my Feo that the police are trying to get a nationwide computer log of all cleared land. Here in Gloucestershire I have shot on land that was passed many years before. Recently I rang my FEO about apiece of land that was bought off a large estate about ten years ago, it had changed ownership but as it had belong to the estate which had been passed for upto 308 calibre due to the resident fallow herd thus it was ok for 243.

Luckily I have open status on all my rifles which saves alot of hassle but with ever expanding city suburbs and new building projects some land must need reassessing for safey's sake.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Redgum

[barrelsniffer]

Interestin this one, I was told by my Feo that the police are trying to get a nationwide computer log of all cleared land. Here in Gloucestershire I have shot on land that was passed many years before. Recently I rang my FEO about apiece of land that was bought off a large estate about ten years ago, it had changed ownership but as it had belong to the estate which had been passed for upto 308 calibre due to the resident fallow herd thus it was ok for 243.

Luckily I have open status on all my rifles which saves alot of hassle but with ever expanding city suburbs and new building projects some land must need reassessing for safey's sake.

 

 

I also have been open now for past 8yrs but when my mate put in for his fac..and i got him perm on my farms..i tought a quick call from cheshire to wales police and that would be it..NOPE

 

the land hasnt changed and its in the hills of wales so no housing or anything all the same as it was 10 yrs ago when i last enquired...strange but i did hear they only keep it on file for 5 yrs then after that it needs re-checking.

 

Mick

[scout]

I had a similar experience with land that had been passed years ago. The reasoning from D& C was that previously the land was only checked for what the holder requested, but now it is checked for the maximum allowable calibre, irrespective of what is requested. I was asking for a 243 and land was cleared up to 308 so no probs re a land check if i decide to change.