BASC statement on findings of ACPO review into firearms licensing proc

[throbbingfinger]

Licensed drink drivers kill more people than licensed firearms/shotgun owners, but what is that i hear you cry?

 

No review of driving/alcohol license grants!!

 

We have some of the strictest gun laws in the world and probably one of the lowest () licensed gun ownership problems.

 

Its all about politics and winning votes for the puppets who run this country.

[Mr_Logic]

I've read that report now in its entirety, and it seems basically reasonable. I don't approve of the GP linking thing, but that is recommended for further review, not a massive change. The changes listed in the Appendix all make good sense and benefit shooters.

 

Nothing in it is a knee-jerk reaction and nothing in it necessarily causes harm to us. I think, for the most part, the response to these murders has been a pretty good one thus far.

 

If that report means I can buy Nosler ballistic tips on mail order then I am a happy camper!

[David BASC]

It was an ACPO enquiry to review how the Cumbria police firearms licensing system operated and to see if there were any areas that they had fallen down on – there were not. Neither BASC nor any other organisation is in a position to influence this internal enquiry by ACPO.

 

Just as ACPO were not in a position to influence BASC’s proposals and recommendations to the HASC

 

The ACC in charge of the internal investigation took the opportunity to take a ‘helicopter’ view of the current state of firearms licensing, hence his recommendations… this is certainly within his remit. There is nothing too threatening in what he has said in our view, and as most others on this thread agree.

 

This report makes up just one piece of ‘evidence’ that will go to the HASC that are reviewing firearms licensing. As you know it’s the HASC that will be sending its findings and recommendations to parliament very soon.

 

BASC has not claimed this report as a ‘victory’, but we have welcomed the report in the context that it does not fly off recommending daft draconian restrictions.

 

As you also probably also know BASC have presented oral evidence to the committee on two occasions, and were at the centre of generating the largest response to any HASC consolation ever – I am not claiming a ‘victory’ just telling it as it is ‘pure and unvarnished’

 

You will have seen BASC’s recommendations to the committee, they are on our web site and also in the last copy of S&C- if we achieve some or all of those in the final outcome that will, in my view, be a ‘victory’ for shooting.

 

BASC has demonstrably taken a lead on this issue , others seem very quiet indeed, so I guess it’s not surprising that we will draw comment even from our own constituency as within such a diverse sport as shooting there will be a range of views.

 

Regards to all

 

David

[Sprackles]

Kes said,

There is a presumption in the report that all additional costs for (medicals) and for some presently typical 'no cost' variations should be transferred to the applicant - for example the report states that it should be the applicant who pays if a cert is NOT granted, rather than at present, the police. This is justified on the basis of the enquiries that have had to be undertaken to justify refusal are a real cost. Presumably also, if a refusal is challened unsuccessfully, the applicant would pay for the costs incurred rather than the police/courts.

 

As I understand it from browsing elsewhere (A shooting Lawyers site), costs of appeal are paid for by the appellant as opposed to the police and win or lose, those costs are still borne by us.

Its a lose/lose situation for shooters as Police know that even if unjustified, they will not pay for thier mistakes and those costs run into thousands putting an appeal way beyond everyday shooters.

 

Without going back and browsing the report again, I recall mention of a review of who hears appeals and if this accepted and revised so an independant panel as opposed to the judiciary hear it, then this is a good thing.

 

There are other areas that if adopted could cause concern but as David BASC points out, this is more a review of one forces procedures so until then we will have to wait and see how jerky the knees become.

[David BASC]

Sprackles,

 

Yes pretty well spot on, that why BASC wanted all such appeals held / head by tribunal, that was in our submission to the HASC

 

David

[the running man]

Cops investigating cops,well no wonder cumbria firearms dept was exonerated of any wrong doing. Anyone who just fell off the turnip truck could tell you that outcome.

[David BASC]

I think that is unfair, I have no doubt that ACPO did the right thing, did it all by the book in this investigation and there is nothing in the report or the recommendations to suggest otherwise.

 

Nor for that matter have I seen or heard anything that suggest otherwise, nor have there been any accusations that the correct protocols and procedures were followed as far as I know.

 

However, the report did uncover some aspects where the ACC thought further checks and balances may be considered appropriate. Whether or not the HASC agree, and whether or not parliament ultimately agrees, is another matter.

 

Regardless of the ACPO or any other report for that matter, BASC will stick to its guns and keep lobbying for our key recommendations:

 

• The Firearms Acts 1968 – 1997 should be consolidated into a single Act.

• No wholesale review of firearms law should take place in the current emotionally charged climate.

• Any new firearms legislation should be divided into two acts; criminal justice matter and licensing administration.

• Appeals against police licensing decisions should be dealt with by a tribunal.

• Airgun control laws should not be devolved to Scotland.

• The current regime for licensing shotguns should be extended to sporting rifles.

 

However, as I have said before we are all entitled to our point of view.

 

David

[al4x]

bit of an issue if they do the opposite of your suggestion David and extend the current regime for licensing rifles to shotguns. In the current climate that would seem far more likely

[David BASC]

ACPO did not recommend putting shotguns on Sec 1 in their report

 

Home office have not asked for or recommended shotguns on Sec 1

 

The vast majority of evidence to the HASC thus far has been very much on the lines of the BASC position

 

I am sure your submission to the HASC was very much along the lines of the BASC submission…I know mine was

 

There is still lots of lobbying to do… no one must rest and assume it’s all OK, I know BASC are still in their fighting.

 

Thank goodness BASC has the resources to lobby thanks to the loyal support of our members and our expert staff.

 

David

[the running man]

Well david,I do not share all ure or bascs views but am grateful for ure mostly positive input with the committee. With much lobbying to do what do u think of 1. The committees trip to bisley, and 2. A previous post of mine on unhelpful bias against all shooting sports by the bbc?

[HDAV]

Laying blame firmly at the door of the Police would have been easy get out for everyone except the police, Firearms law does need changing in the uk and i understand most people will expect it to get tougher. Thats probably true but it doesn't mean it will detrimental to shooting, I am glad the BASC have got the PR they have and hopefully can improve education amongst the general public. The interview of the SGC holding victim was very interesting if a tad short I expect the debate will run for a while, but the conclusions of the report which i have read all of it seem to be reasonable i too am worried about the NHS's ability to hold details of FAC and firearm holders securely but paying for a medical every 5 years is not a big issue, the bigger issue is people not seeking the correct treatment if they fear they will loose their cert as a result.

[David BASC]

It was mentioned at the very first oral evidence meeting of the HASC that they intended to visit a shooting ground, if not to all participate then to see shooting in action that seems fair enough?

 

There is always a risk of bias in reporting, sometimes it may be the editorial brief to take a position, sometimes it will be because they haven to got the full picture and so on.

 

How much notice the HASC will take of what the BBC says or not says is another matter, I honestly do not think it will make much difference to the committees discussions or findings.

 

BASC will keep lobbying based on clam fact and not hysterical emotion!

 

David

[the running man]

It was mentioned at the very first oral evidence meeting of the HASC that they intended to visit a shooting ground, if not to all participate then to see shooting in action that seems fair enough?

 

There is always a risk of bias in reporting, sometimes it may be the editorial brief to take a position, sometimes it will be because they haven to got the full picture and so on.

 

How much notice the HASC will take of what the BBC says or not says is another matter, I honestly do not think it will make much difference to the committees discussions or findings.

 

BASC will keep lobbying based on clam fact and not hysterical emotion!

 

David

good pc answer david,but would you not agree with me that there's a generic undercurrent of bias against all shooting by the bbc?

[Kes]

I wonder who is guilty of hysterical emotion - not a criticism I would level at anyone personally.

I refer all members to the first post which says 'well done BASC', presumably for welcoming a statement it could not influence.

I would suggest this is somewhat over enthusiastic support.

 

It is still fact (and not hysterical fact) that this independent report (of whether and how the actions of the Cumbrian Police Firearms Management function affected the tragedy in Cumbria), was commissioned by the Chief Con of Cumbria. Nor that, it may well, in the current climate, carry disproportionate weight in the review of firearms legislation.

 

The comments I made about potential for change for the worse is still correct, however, I am gratfeul for the correction re the possible change in costs for appeals against refusal of a certificate.

 

Let us not fall so easily into the trap of yaaa booo responses.

All posts always have merit, even if we totally disagree with the content.

 

BASC has yet to earn its salt on this one for me - I am genuinely hoping it will andtThat it will not claim, whatever the outcome, it has succeeded.

 

David BASC has stated the organisations goals, let us see what transpires and measure the success of BASC against those goals when achieved against the general run of argument.

 

For surely it is no success, nor achievement for one party, where an outcome, predisposed by logical argument of all parties involved is reached ??

[Sprackles]

The trouble with firearms and the perception by most is that as a nation, our exposure to them is now very limited.

When we had larger armed forces, more people came into contact with them and so were likely to view them in a different light or perhaps continue as shooters after they left.

 

With the ever shrinking forces we have left, that pool of firearms aware people is ever diminishing to the detriment of us all.

Opportunities for newcomers are hard to come by unless you know someone already as in my experience, a lot of people keep thier permissions closely guarded and are unwilling to share, there are exceptions I know.

 

Shooting sports in general seem to be almost underground now as there is a growing suspicion amongst the ill informed and open hostility from the BEEB and various other organisations.

 

The knock on effect for us all is as we diminish in numbers, it becomes easier to pick us off slowly but surely.

 

We could do with some well publicised have a go days all over the country to try and combat this and draw fresh blood into the community.

Unless this view and demonising of the shooter is challenged, in the long run shooting sports will eventually cease to be.

[masterzone2]

Much as I understand this is a review in to firearms that are legal to own I ask where possible

the following.

Am I to understand that nothing was/has been said to revoke the stupid act laid down by a bunch of money grabbing thieves (previous statement was opinion ONLY).

OR in other words

The Revoking of the 1997 firearms act amendment 2 (including the part about keeping .22 pistols at the club houses)

On another note clearly the public are unaware of the illegal gun trade which WILL 100% ensure murder on a massive scale.

unlike us law abiding sports persons.

[the running man]

Much as I understand this is a review in to firearms that are legal to own I ask where possible

the following.

Am I to understand that nothing was/has been said to revoke the stupid act laid down by a bunch of money grabbing thieves (previous statement was opinion ONLY).

OR in other words

The Revoking of the 1997 firearms act amendment 2 (including the part about keeping .22 pistols at the club houses)

On another note clearly the public are unaware of the illegal gun trade which WILL 100% ensure murder on a massive scale.

unlike us law abiding sports persons.

Here here,well said.

[HDAV]

We could do with some well publicised have a go days all over the country to try and combat this and draw fresh blood into the community.

Unless this view and demonising of the shooter is challenged, in the long run shooting sports will eventually cease to be.

As a newcomer i totally and utterly agree I am trying to get more people to experience of real "shooting"

[Sprackles]

Shooting sports in general seem to be almost underground now as there is a growing suspicion amongst the ill informed and open hostility from the BEEB and various other organisations.

 

With reference to the above I posted a couple of replies ago, I read today where an army cadet unit had been banned from marching with rifles as there had been complaints and it may offend some people.

This was for a remembrance day parade.

 

This highlights my points exactly as to the publics ever diminishing exposure to firearms and the open hostility to them by some sections of the people...eagerly supported by such organisations as BBC.

 

story is here

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13...es-weapons.html

[the running man]

With reference to the above I posted a couple of replies ago, I read today where an army cadet unit had been banned from marching with rifles as there had been complaints and it may offend some people.

This was for a remembrance day parade.

 

This highlights my points exactly as to the publics ever diminishing exposure to firearms and the open hostility to them by some sections of the people...eagerly supported by such organisations as BBC.

 

story is here

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13...es-weapons.html

typical of the libral rubbish,these complainers need a serious reality check. i would say ******** to them and just march with them,they wont be loaded im sure!!!! whats next,no more trooping the colour with rifles? please tell me who these people are so i may challenge them to a debate.

[leeds chimp]

The trouble with firearms and the perception by most is that as a nation, our exposure to them is now very limited.

When we had larger armed forces, more people came into contact with them and so were likely to view them in a different light or perhaps continue as shooters after they left.

 

With the ever shrinking forces we have left, that pool of firearms aware people is ever diminishing to the detriment of us all.

Opportunities for newcomers are hard to come by unless you know someone already as in my experience, a lot of people keep thier permissions closely guarded and are unwilling to share, there are exceptions I know.

 

Shooting sports in general seem to be almost underground now as there is a growing suspicion amongst the ill informed and open hostility from the BEEB and various other organisations.

 

The knock on effect for us all is as we diminish in numbers, it becomes easier to pick us off slowly but surely.

 

We could do with some well publicised have a go days all over the country to try and combat this and draw fresh blood into the community.

Unless this view and demonising of the shooter is challenged, in the long run shooting sports will eventually cease to be.

 

And thats a big problem tho. I am a very newcomer to the sport and found it extremly hard to get started with land and even the guns. Then being taught the safe and correct way of dealing with firearms as you need a more experianced head to show you the way or join a rifle club which could put people off the sport. So if they introduce more legal aspects it could cause more hurdles to jump for a new comer

[David BASC]

There is clear evidence of a degree of bias yes, and that is why our media center is so important, to do all we can to get over the balanced view on shooting to the media - not just the BBC

 

The hysterical emotion I mentioned was in relation to some of the anti gun/ anti shooting types that have given evidence to the HASC, who else did you thing I was writing about?

 

As to BASC earning its salt, well we do our best, and I know it will not always be good enough for everyone, but then again who else has done as much as BASC on this issue since the very first hour of the tragic events in Cumbria?

 

It is not uncommon for BASC to take the lead on the tough shooting issues, thats what we are here for, and we have the resources to go into battle for shooting time and time again, we win most but not all, but at least we stand up to the mark and fight.

 

There is still a long way to go, so lets ALL keep playing our part, lets ALL make sure we have put our letter into the HASC,at the very least.

 

David

[Kes]

The last post is a much more 'human' reply and much more of the right scale.

If BASC fights the best of fights, and loses, no one could ask more, certainly not me.

 

As for the hysterical comment - neither of us are stupid - are we ?

 

The media centre which was mentioned has been (IMHO) and will continue to be a big issue with many people.

Let's see it being shown to be genuinely worth all that cash, how can BASC 'sell' it more effectively to the membership, I would genuinely ask ?

 

Finally, it does not matter what others are doing, as long as BASC is doing it right and in a timely way, (and in my view rather more quietly), we all see whats going on, even those who are members of other organisations.

 

Success will out, without its being forced down anyone's throats.

 

Self publicity, I know, is required by those (usually at the top) who are concerned that an organisations success is often unseen, and as a means to reflect the 'true' profile of the organisation. It may seem to be necessary to those who are rather remote from their 'customers' but it is rarely taken in the right way unless rather undersold. Take Gordon Brown for instance -thankfully someone did.

 

It would be good to see some other publications referring to the sensible comments and practical attitude of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. Especially those who may, rather too easily be referred to as 'hysterical'.

 

Onward and upward !

[the running man]

yess,i agree with you this time david on the bbc thing.

[David BASC]

Trust me we will keep on fighting, that’s what we do, and it you take a look at our 5 key objectives you will see that a balanced comment in the media for shooting is one of them.

 

I agree too about opportunities and accessibility for newcomers, and this is a key project for BASC and something I am working on now to launch in Spring 2011.

 

The media centre at BASC is an important tool; it brings together in one open office all the press, media, political and marketing teams, with the design and web teams in the same building.

 

The media centre has a radio studio with full broadcast facilities, and a video filming / editing suite. It was at the centre of the coordinated media response from BASC on behalf of the shooting community to the Cumbria tragedy.

 

Proof of the pudding was that in the fist 24 hours BASC gave many more interviews both live and recorded to the TV and radio than anyone, which includes those who are against shooting.

 

The same is true for all the months since then, no one else has had more airtime than BASC, and we have consistently promoted shooting as safe and well run. That has to be good for shooting doesn’t it?

 

No one else, either pro or anti, have, to the best of my knowledge this resource, which perhaps explains why everyone else has been so quiet compared to BASC?

 

It has also been at the centre of our political campaign, remember the coordinated response that BASC managed to the HASC consultation yielded the highest level of repose ever to any HASC consultation, so great was the demand that the consultation is still open,

 

In my view BASC and shooting would be far worse off if we do not have the best tools for the job, I am sure anyone who is pro shooting can accept that.

 

Kes, as to your probing about ‘hysterical’, I am not at all sure what you are trying to say, but in my view people who have given evidence to the committee saying ‘all guns a bad, guns are nasty, none should keep guns or ammunition in the house, no one should be allowed to keep anything dangerous in their home’s or farmers should keep their guns in out houses and order up ammunition when they need it and send back that which is unused…are just being hysterical.

 

Anyway, the ACPO report is important as is all the evidence that the HASC may see, so our eyes should turn to the HASC and what they will do with the evidence.

 

The clock is ticking so please do not just sit back and assume everyone else has written to the committee so you don’t have to, on the contrary…get lobbying! Full guidance is on the BASC web site if you need it.

 

David