Poachers

[Richie10]

'So deer poachers poach deer because it is their calling in life and they do it for the benefit of the deer population? Where did you dream that one up or did you get it out of a Xmas cracker?'

 

You are now trying to misquote me! HA HA!

 

I said deer stalkers don't do it as a calling in life to control deer, they do it because they enjoy the thrill, meat and possible trophies.

People didn't course deer for sport where did you get that idea, I doubt whether you have any experience in this area. People had to down the deer as quick as possible otherwise it would escape and dinner is lost.

 

How can you say that a deer bringing down a deer is consideration after it being shot while a dog chasing a deer is cruel? A deer can get away if it doesn't have a bullet in it.

Your argument is based on the act of being chased and the human perception that being chased is cruel. Animals get chased/frighten everyday.

Bad shots are inevitable happens to everyone, you cannot guarentee an animal not moving at the moment you pull the trigger. Don't be naive.

Your argument on hunting with dogs is that because everyone else thinks it's cruel so do you. Legally deer coursing was about pest control and meat harvesting, people went out to catch the deer, not see how high the shot was taken or whether it was a left or right.

I never heard of people having matches with their dogs on deer only hares, as they were seen as the challenge.

[Rasher]

[it shows that you have no argument, tell me why it is ok to pursue one animal for food and not the other.]

 

On the contrary It shows that my arguement is sound, correct and well founded. I have never said that it is ok to pursue and animal for food and nothing else. It all depends upon how , when and where the said animal is pursued. I have nothing against trophy hunting prese`. If thats what motivates the hunter then fine. As long as its done in a ethical and morally responsible manner. Very few of those that hunt the big 5 do so for meat.

 

[Pheasant shoots are for sporting shots, Deer coursing is for meat and control(when it was legal).]

Your starting to repeat yourself again. Saying twice doesn't make it true

 

[How can you argue is it that it is moral and ethical to breed a bird foreign to this land to put infront of guns for the purpose of a sporting shot but not to take a deer for meat which is seen as a pest?}

There you go again! I've not said that at all. it is the method by which that deer is killed that is the subject for discussion

 

[i support LEGAL deer coursing, not ILLEGAL deer coursing.}

Well theres your problem in a nut shell. There is no legal deer coursing in this country, for good sound moral and ethical reasons.

 

{So basically because other people think it is cruel so do you.]

Nope! I think its crul because it is. Unlike you, I have first hand experience of the crime. My opinions ar not just based upon what I have read or been told.

 

[it is fine to chase birds into a line of guns but cannot chase a deer which has got a good chance of escape without injury.}

When in a hole up to your neck its advisable to cease digging any deeper. According to you the whole purpose of taking deer with dogs was to pull them down as quickly as possible not to chase them and give them a chance to get away. Whats it to be. Fast and quick or long and away? :lol:

[Hezbear]

[i support LEGAL deer coursing, not ILLEGAL deer coursing.}

Well theres your problem in a nut shell. There is no legal deer coursing in this country, for good sound moral and ethical reasons.

The only reason hunting with dogs got banned was the labour party got a million pound off the lacs to ban it . I think it's cruel that the hunt use a pack of dogs on a fox when 1 of my lurchers will chase, catch and kill it by itself. Do I still go and see the hounds off and wish the hunters good luck? Yes as I know a few of them personally and they always wish me and my dogs good luck. I could of been a part time terrierman for a pack but turned it down due to me taking foxes with my dogs :yp:

[Richie10]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1341948/Hunt-supporters-force-traditional-Christmas-meetings--David-Cameron-drops-plan-repeal-ban.html

 

Here are some of your friends.

 

How can you have first hand experience? Who would have taken you with them? As I said before but you keep saying the same thing. Deer coursing was about taking the deer down as quick as possible and not the chase, a longer chase would mean more chance of getting away, but you would know that.

 

You haven't put over an argument, you have basically said, you think it is cruel because other people think it is and morally and ethically it's wrong but shooting for sport is ethically and morally correct. HOW?

 

You still haven't answered the question, forget about deer, tell me how breeding birds to drive over a line of guns is ethically and morally right?

 

Also when are you going to answer the question of ferreting. Coursing rabbits out of their homes?

[Richie10]

The only reason hunting with dogs got banned was the labour party got a million pound off the lacs to ban it . I think it's cruel that the hunt use a pack of dogs on a fox when 1 of my lurchers will chase, catch and kill it by itself. Do I still go and see the hounds off and wish the hunters good luck? Yes as I know a few of them personally and they always wish me and my dogs good luck. I could of been a part time terrierman for a pack but turned it down due to me taking foxes with my dogs :yp:

 

Now that LACS is buying up land to change the shooting rights against game shooting, what do you think will happen when Labour get in again and gets a pay off.

[Rasher]

[You are now trying to misquote me! HA HA!}

No miss quote there at all Rich. They were you words as you posted them. Are you now saying thats not true?

 

{Your argument is based on the act of being chased and the human perception that being chased is cruel. Animals get chased/frighten everyday.

Bad shots are inevitable happens to everyone, you cannot guarentee an animal not moving at the moment you pull the trigger. Don't be naive.

Your argument on hunting with dogs is that because everyone else thinks it's cruel so do you. Legally deer coursing was about pest control and meat harvesting, people went out to catch the deer, not see how high the shot was taken or whether it was a left or right.

I never heard of people having matches with their dogs on deer only hares, as they were seen as the challenge.]

We simply going around in circles. due to you fundamental unwillingness to grasp the basic precepts of the distinction between perceived and applied cruelty. Whilst at the same time grasping at non-existent straws in order to try and prop up your crumbling defence of the indefencible. Your arguemnet is based not upon personal experience but upon, I no not what, other than miscoceptions, mistaken views and a lack of logical reasoning. I'll leave you to chase off around the circle again. A bit like a dog chasing a deer.

 

I've enjoyed our chat.

[Hezbear]

They will try to ban shooting then Richie10, then it will be fishing and birds of prey. I would love to know how under the current act my terrier has to tell the difference between a rat and a mouse, or if my lurchers are hunting up how they can tell the difference between a rabbit and hare

[Rasher]

I said the course can be over in as little as 30 seconds not they were over in 30 seconds. Seeing deer and fox wounded by incompetent shooters is not a pretty sight to witness either. I have old deer coursing footage where the courses have been over in less than 30 seconds but I wouldn't put it up on any forum. I only used to run deer during the day so they had a SPORTING chance of escape. I hate the people who course deer at night in the same way as I hate the crop drivers and farm thieves.

 

Regardless of whether you ran deer during the day or under the lamp there's nothing sporting the coursing deer with dogs. 30 second or 30 minutes makes no differnce IMO

[Richie10]

After all the questions about morality I have put to you, you have answered none.

 

In the eighties I ran Hares and Roe with a vet. I have experience.

I have experience of shooting and deer stalking and do infact shoot Red deer for free.

I also shoot shotguns, ferret and lamp.

 

At the end of all this you have talked about morals and ethics but have not defined either.

 

One day you will answer my questions without skirting around the issue.

[Hezbear]

Incompetent marksman leave deer to suffer all the time Rasher but I would never back a ban on stalking, in fact some of my best land has come through idiots with guns. A fact for you is aim the gun and take the shot, dead or wounded deer. Slip a lurcher and it either escapes or gets caught so I would say dogs are more sporting

[Rasher]

The only reason hunting with dogs got banned was the labour party got a million pound off the lacs to ban it . I think it's cruel that the hunt use a pack of dogs on a fox when 1 of my lurchers will chase, catch and kill it by itself. Do I still go and see the hounds off and wish the hunters good luck? Yes as I know a few of them personally and they always wish me and my dogs good luck. I could of been a part time terrierman for a pack but turned it down due to me taking foxes with my dogs :yp:

 

Wrong the only reason why both hare and deer coursing got banned was because its indefensible. It was an inevitability. The main hound hunting campaigners knew that , the shooters knew that, and the legitimate coursers knew that. The only ones that failed to realise it were the illegal. coursers.

 

Fortunately now with the increased police focus at catching charging and prosecuting these people the message is getting fianly starting to hit home.

[Rasher]

I would love to know how under the current act my terrier has to tell the difference between a rat and a mouse, or if my lurchers are hunting up how they can tell the difference between a rabbit and hare

 

They can't and wont. That's why it you that ends up in court, you that pays the fine and you that has your vehicles removed and crushed. It the dogs that get destroyed mind so I guess they pay the ultimate price in for your disregard of the law.

[Hezbear]

Wrong the only reason why both hare and deer coursing got banned was because its indefensible. It was an inevitability. The main hound hunting campaigners knew that , the shooters knew that, and the legitimate coursers knew that. The only ones that failed to realise it were the illegal. coursers.

 

Fortunately now with the increased police focus at catching charging and prosecuting these people the message is getting fianly starting to hit home.

There were more hares on land managed for hare coursing than on pheasant shoots as the land was MANAGED for the hare population I agreed at the start of the post that I'm against poaching of any kind, but if this silly unenforcable ban makes me and my dogs go against the law then it's fine by me. In fact my saluki cross pup is only 4 months old but I have got invites to run him on good hare land when he is 18 months old

[Rasher]

After all the questions about morality I have put to you, you have answered none.

 

In the eighties I ran Hares and Roe with a vet. I have experience.

I have experience of shooting and deer stalking and do infact shoot Red deer for free.

I also shoot shotguns, ferret and lamp.

 

At the end of all this you have talked about morals and ethics but have not defined either.

 

One day you will answer my questions without skirting around the issue.

 

Again I suggest you go back and re-read my posts. You'll find all of your questions have been answered some of them several times over, and no skirting has been done by me. A basic failure to grasp the fundamentals from you has been apparent from the out set though.

 

So you ran hare and deer with a vet. That makes it all right does it? I think not.

 

We'll just have to disagree then.

 

Enjoy what's left of the bank holiday.

[Richie10]

Again I suggest you go back and re-read my posts. You'll find all of your questions have been answered some of them several times over, and no skirting has been done by me. A basic failure to grasp the fundamentals from you has been apparent from the out set though.

 

So you ran hare and deer with a vet. That makes it all right does it? I think not.

 

We'll just have to disagree then.

 

Enjoy what's left of the bank holiday.

 

Please could you cut and paste the answer again to show me where you explain why it is ethically and morally sound to shoot farmed foreign birds driven over guns and why ferreting is sound.

 

I must have missed that.

[Hezbear]

They can't and wont. That's why it you that ends up in court, you that pays the fine and you that has your vehicles removed and crushed. It the dogs that get destroyed mind so I guess they pay the ultimate price in for your disregard of the law.

Rasher the easy way around that though is you borrowed the vehicle and the dogs, not your property so can't be seized like you said it's the person that is caught that pays the fine, but like I said a dog can't tell the difference and you can't stop a 40mph dog from coursing

[Rasher]

There were more hares on land managed for hare coursing than on pheasant shoots as the land was MANAGED for the hare population I agreed at the start of the post that I'm against poaching of any kind, but if this silly unenforcable ban makes me and my dogs go against the law then it's fine by me. In fact my saluki cross pup is only 4 months old but I have got invites to run him on good hare land when he is 18 months old

 

Name 3 estates other than Altcar and where they held the Norfolk cup (the name of which escapes me) where the land was managed solely for the preservation of hares.

 

Breaking the law is only something that you as an owner can do. The fact remains the same hare coursing and deer coursing done right or done wrong is cruel and immoral and unethical.

 

Glad to read that you don't condone theiving. Poaching is theft. Its a criminal act and those that participate in that act deserve all that they have coming to them IMO

[Rasher]

Please could you cut and paste the answer again to show me where you explain why it is ethically and morally sound to shoot farmed foreign birds driven over guns and why ferreting is sound.

 

I must have missed that.

:lol: Thats your problem Rich you never learn. Its there, you'll just have to go and find it for yourself.

[Rasher]

Rasher the easy way around that though is you borrowed the vehicle and the dogs, not your property so can't be seized like you said it's the person that is caught that pays the fine, but like I said a dog can't tell the difference and you can't stop a 40mph dog from coursing

 

They just lift them and crush them using one of the new RVO laws mate Section 36 and 59 plau a few others IIRC. They will have them if they want them.

 

I appreciate you can stop the dog, you simply stop the owner. You can't do a lot with your dog if your banged up doing time.

[Richie10]

:lol: Thats your problem Rich you never learn. Its there, you'll just have to go and find it for yourself.

 

That's because you never did.

 

As for you saying that Country sports are open to everyone, you have even written how renews are going to increase in cost. So guns are looking to be tightened and application and renews more expensive and you have moaned about the cost of deer stalking, yet you are saying never has there been more people involved, if they have money that is.

 

So when are going to push for the ban of ferreting?

[BADFEET]

Im a country man through and through but that i feel that is wrong i canot see any reason for it the deer will suffer immensely unlike a fox that gets killed in a shake ive never seen a dog that can do that to a deer. This subject realy puts my back up when I hear people talking about coarseing deer infact i will be getting rid of one of my beaters because he had pride in telling me about his lurcher tacking deer I have no time for it this chap has now lost out in a fair bit of shooting through that comment.

 

I hope you loose all your beaters you narrow minded, spiteful fool.... you will soon kiss his backside when the paying guests have no beaters to put on the day.

[dazza]

Wrong the only reason why both hare and deer coursing got banned was because its indefensible. It was an inevitability. The main hound hunting campaigners knew that , the shooters knew that, and the legitimate coursers knew that. The only ones that failed to realise it were the illegal. coursers.

 

Fortunately now with the increased police focus at catching charging and prosecuting these people the message is getting fianly starting to hit home.

 

Spoken like a true anti You should be on the media front with LACS. If your not already

[al4x]

I'm sure he won't have an issue finding beaters badfeet, simply because most of us don't believe lurchers and deer is a humane method of putting deer in the chiller. Even the staghounds with a pack the dogs don't do the killing and as a method of deer control it is so outdated its untrue. Rasher you won't ever convince Ritchie poachers and dogs after deer is a bad thing and I can't work out whether its because he is someone who does it or whether he just enjoys stirring.

[Rasher]

[That's because you never did.]

Perhaps you were reading a different thread to me. As I know I did answer your questions. Or perhaps my answers weren't what you had hoped for. A bit too subtle perhaps? Who knows? If you are that anxious or disconcerted by what you percieve to be my lack of answers again I suggest you go back and re -read what was posted I'm sure that you'll find what you're looking for the second or third time around

 

[As for you saying that Country sports are open to everyone, you have even written how renews are going to increase in cost. So guns are looking to be tightened and application and renews more expensive and you have moaned about the cost of deer stalking, yet you are saying never has there been more people involved, if they have money that is.]

Correct I have said that country sports are open to everyone, and yes SGC and FAC applications and renewals with most definitely go up in price quit significantly in some cases, and yes I believe that a number of the commercial stalking agents are opportunistic and exploitative and yes there are more people getting involved in country sports year on year. But having money has nothing at all to do with it. It the desire, the willingness to take part, the growing number of commerical opportunities, as well as non commercial opportunities that have all contributed. e.g. The CA have openly stated that there are more people going hunting now than there was pre the 2004 ban, The GCT has more members, the SAT trust has more members, the BDS has more members, as have all of the county sports association and organisation have more members. People tend not to pay membership fees and not do anything. Perhaps you're different in that regard. Perhaps your obvious lack of knowledge on these matters holds you back from participating, it shouldn'! We all have to start to learn for some where.

A lack of money is no barrier to participation, you just habve to find ways around the problem. A friends son is mad keen on hunting beagles and has been a whipperin fr his local pack for the last 18months. Last year he lost his job and with it his company car. In order to keep doing what he loves he cycles to of the meets or cycles to the kennels and grabs a lift on the hound van, he has sold his drum kit and a number of other personal items to fund his hunting. Does he care , does he complain, does he say its unfair? Nah! He just gets on doing what he loves doing and will continue to do so with or with out money. Perhaps you should try it sometime.

[Rasher]

Spoken like a true anti You should be on the media front with LACS. If your not already

 

p.m.s.l. Could you be more wrong.......? If you only knew the truth.

 

 

I was offered the job but I turned it down,.. they couldn't find enough subscription fee to pay my salary. :lol: :lol:

Edited December 27, 2010 by Rasher