Voluntary Restraint in shooting wildfowl and waders

[wildfowler.250]

 

 

Big thaw right on the big bad ban day in Scotland with a good strong wind, typical

 

Your telling me! If they had waited for one more day there wouldn't have been a ban. Although I have no idea what woodencock are like at the moment, the ducks on the shore are in fine condition.

 

ATB

[wildfowler.250]

The shooting of Canada's cropped up because of CZ452's post and the question it contained, namely the shooting of Canada's as vermin (to use his description) therefore meaning under the terms of the General license.

 

Provided one is shooting Canada geese under the terms of the General License (no one has provided reference to specific legislation that overrides the GL) I can see no reason why their shooting as a pest species would be affected by the cold weather ban.

 

Of course where they are being shot solely for sport they would come under the cold weather ban but CZ452 was not referring to sporting shooting. Similarly where one is shooting them for sporting reasons only it would be illegal to shoot them in the closed season, however as I have pointed out, CZ452 was questioning their standing in the context of a pest species.

 

C

 

Thanks! Yes I was looking for something along the lines of "species 'x' type of geese can't be shot for pest control whilst a ban is in place but,(as you pointed out) I have seen nothing to that effect so far. I know a few farms that I can shoot on where the geese are considered pests/vermin and they have gone to the extent of getting out of season shooting,(pinks and greylags). So I would imagine that there is something in writing that would allow the farmer to shoot the geese on his fields,(rather than let's hundreds of them eat and poop in them).

 

BASC would be handy or someone who knows the ins and outs

[harrycatcat1]

I phoned BASC yesterday and they said they were waiting for an answer from NE to clarify.

[wildfowler.250]

I'm in Scotland if that makes any difference..

 

 

ATB!

[CharlieT]

I phoned BASC yesterday and they said they were waiting for an answer from NE to clarify.

 

 

Shows how bright they are then. Staggaring that they did not know the answer.

[mudpatten]

Quite true!

 

You should have phoned the CA where some braying horsey bint would have asked "Whats a cold weather suspension?" and probably, "whats a canada goose?"

 

But don`t worry, I`m sure the new CA chief executive will be battling to see that this sort of thing does`nt happen again.

[anser2]

At least BASC are making the attempt to make a reply which is more than the CA would do. I talked to Countryside Alliance Chief Executive Alice Barnard several months ago for some time and her knowledge of shooting was apaling to say the least. She even admitted the cut price membership to be a sales gimic that once a member joined they would expect to pay full wack when they renew. Clearly an organisation who just want to grap money off the shooting community to fund their aims to bring back hunting.

Edited December 12, 2010 by anser2

[M ROBSON]

A cold weather ban comes in under a clause in the wildlife and countryside act.

 

The wildlife and countryside act over-rights any general licence or out of season permit. The general license is issued by SERAD in Scotland, DEFRA in England. You will not be issued a permit during a cold weather ban.

 

As far as the wildlife and countryside act is concerned Canada Geese are wildfowl (NOT PESTS) and are covered in a cold weather ban.

 

Anybody who shoots wildfowl or waders during a cold weather ban is breaking the law, regardless of species or damage they are doing to crops.

 

Mark.

[MC]

A cold weather ban comes in under a clause in the wildlife and countryside act.

 

The wildlife and countryside act over-rights any general licence or out of season permit. The general license is issued by SERAD in Scotland, DEFRA in England. You will not be issued a permit during a cold weather ban.

 

As far as the wildlife and countryside act is concerned Canada Geese are wildfowl (NOT PESTS) and are covered in a cold weather ban.

 

Anybody who shoots wildfowl or waders during a cold weather ban is breaking the law, regardless of species or damage they are doing to crops.

 

Mark.

 

 

 

Quite glad someone has a little bit of sense. Canada Geese are and always will be wildfowl. They are not vermin, never have been. You are permitted to shoot them under the terms of the general licence at all times of the year as long as you adhere to those terms.

 

They come under the cold weather ban as they are named in it specifically.

 

But then again the "Wipe them all out brigade" won't be interested in that. Killing everything living is all they are interested in.

[scolopax]

But then again the "Wipe them all out brigade" won't be interested in that. Killing everything living is all they are interested in.

 

only if they can do it with a rifle mind......

[farmerjohn]

Quite glad someone has a little bit of sense. Canada Geese are and always will be wildfowl. They are not vermin, never have been. You are permitted to shoot them under the terms of the general licence at all times of the year as long as you adhere to those terms.

 

They come under the cold weather ban as they are named in it specifically.

 

But then again the "Wipe them all out brigade" won't be interested in that. Killing everything living is all they are interested in.

That's ok if you live in a fluffy bunny world but when a thousand geese are eating your the crop you need to sell to feed and clothe your kids you may feel a bit differently

[CharlieT]

Quite glad someone has a little bit of sense. Canada Geese are and always will be wildfowl. They are not vermin, never have been. You are permitted to shoot them under the terms of the general licence at all times of the year as long as you adhere to those terms.

 

They come under the cold weather ban as they are named in it specifically.

 

But then again the "Wipe them all out brigade" won't be interested in that. Killing everything living is all they are interested in.

 

 

Whilst I appreciate that you and many others, me included, hate to see the poor old Canada labled as vermin there is no doubt that at times the poor old thing becomes a pest and needs culling in large numbers. Hence NE added it to the GL.

 

In fact NE recommend that the best way to kill large numbers is to round them up when they are flightless and then dap them.

 

However, I am still waiting for someone to point me in the direction of the missive from NE that states that the control of Canada Geese has been/will be suspended from the GL during hard weather.

 

I would suggest the opposite is true in that in times of severe weather they are more likly to become a pest and in need control.

[MC]

Whilst I appreciate that you and many others, me included, hate to see the poor old Canada labled as vermin there is no doubt that at times the poor old thing becomes a pest and needs culling in large numbers. Hence NE added it to the GL.

 

In fact NE recommend that the best way to kill large numbers is to round them up when they are flightless and then dap them.

 

However, I am still waiting for someone to point me in the direction of the missive from NE that states that the control of Canada Geese has been/will be suspended from the GL during hard weather.

 

I would suggest the opposite is true in that in times of severe weather they are more likly to become a pest and in need control.

 

 

When will you people learn?

 

The Canada Goose is not labelled as vermin. It never has been or ever will be. It is a wild bird and as so is protected as all wild birds are. You are allowed to shoot them under the terms of the general licence out of season and in season they can be shot anyway you like. However they are named on the list of birds that are covered by the Severe weather ban so therefore it is plainly obvious to anyone with semi intelligence that you cannot shoot them if such a ban is put in place.

 

The severe weather ban becomes law if it is imposed. The species that are listed on it are then protected by law. The licence mentioned is the special one which can be obtained to shoot Brent Geese or cormorants.

Edited December 15, 2010 by MC

[CharlieT]

Us people are perhaps not as daft as some that post rubbish and seem to make up the law to suit their argument.

 

Do you not agree that the Canada Goose is one of the several species listed on the Open General License, which is issued yearly to permit the killing of the listed species under it's terms.

 

Do you not agree that the listed species may be killed at any time during the life of the GL.

 

As Canada Geese are on the Open General License they fall into the same catagory as every other species of bird named on it.

 

The License one needs to obtain to kill Cormorants and Brent Geese is a totally different one to the GL which covers Canada Geese. I would have thought you were familiar with it as you use it to shoot Pigeons and crows etc.

 

Us people have learned !!, perhaps it's time some others did.

 

C

[al4x]

http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/C8D0365C-F072-408F-ADAF5EE02207DAC1

 

seems like the BASC would tend to agree with Charlie, crucial wording I believe is on page 3 where it says geese unless it is permitted by license which will be the OGL

Obviously as ever you have to comply with the terms of it but its there in Black and white so to speak, and it would make sense. With a covering of snow the fields open to them to feed will be reduced so a farmer could loose his entire crop if it happens to be snow free.

Edited December 15, 2010 by al4x

[anser2]

.

Edited December 15, 2010 by anser2

[M ROBSON]

Charlie T,

 

I do see that it can be very confusing especially when England and Scotland has differing laws.

 

Let me put it this way, even when shooting Canadas under the OGL you still have to abide by the Wildlife and Countryside act 1981, agreed??? eg, you must use non-toxic shot, you are not allowed to sell wild geese...ect...all specified under the WCA.

 

The cold weather suspension is just another clause under the WCA the same as the aforementioned. Canada geese are named in the criteria as wildfowl that are covered by the suspension.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[MC]

Charlie T,

 

I do see that it can be very confusing especially when England and Scotland has differing laws.

 

Let me put it this way, even when shooting Canadas under the OGL you still have to abide by the Wildlife and Countryside act 1981, agreed??? eg, you must use non-toxic shot, you are not allowed to sell wild geese...ect...all specified under the WCA.

 

The cold weather suspension is just another clause under the WCA the same as the aforementioned. Canada geese are named in the criteria as wildfowl that are covered by the suspension.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

Don't waste your breath Mark, CharlieT is one of the "Kill them at all costs" brigade and won't listen. The fact that Canada Geese become named on a document that becomes law after 15 days of cold weather matters not to him. He probably just thinks they will be easy to slaughter when they are starving and lethargic.

[MC]

You obviously missed this bit then Al4x?

 

"Shooting of geese for crop protection during any statutory suspension period

is also prohibited unless it is otherwise permitted by licence. Any such

shooting should be conducted to minimise unnecessary disturbance to other waterfowl"

 

You will note it says "LICENCE" not the "OPEN GENERAL LICENCE"

Edited December 16, 2010 by MC

[al4x]

what does the otherwise permitted by license mean in that case? what license in particular would it be?

 

I know you're a bit of a canada fancier which is fine if you don't have thousands eating your livelihood but do we now have a license to cull canadas during cold weather statutory bans or is it the OGL. I'm sure the BASC will be able to confirm. Not that I'm suggesting do it unless it really is required.

They do refer to the OGL as license elsewhere so it possibly needs clarification

[MC]

what does the otherwise permitted by license mean in that case? what license in particular would it be?

 

I know you're a bit of a canada fancier which is fine if you don't have thousands eating your livelihood but do we now have a license to cull canadas during cold weather statutory bans or is it the OGL. I'm sure the BASC will be able to confirm. Not that I'm suggesting do it unless it really is required.

They do refer to the OGL as license elsewhere so it possibly needs clarification

 

 

Why would they list Canada geese as prohibited to shoot if they were not? The licence as I have already said is similar to the one that you can get to shoot cormorants and brent geese. As someone else has said the OGL doesn't exempt you from any other part of the law. You still have to use non toxic shot to shoot Canada Geese.

 

Although I doubt the "kill them all" Squad would care about that either.

[al4x]

so there is a shooting canadas while the cold weather ban is on licence?

 

we're not talking wildfowling here as its obvious that should stop on them for recreational shooters like yourself, just where they are being a severe farmland pest or indeed a hazard to aircraft etc or do you have to leave them on airfields while you apply?

[MC]

Oh god you really like splitting hairs don't you. Under the air traffic act you can shoot what you like when you like. Peoples safety is far more important.

 

However shooting birds "For the hell of it" is not on and that is why the ban is brought in, I would wager taht the cold weather does more harm to crops than geese do.

 

And please stop harping on about "PEST CONTROL" it is ******** and we all know it. We all shoot for enjoyment. Those who say they don't are plain liars.

 

Noone invests an awful lot of money and time in their equipment who doesn't enjoy it.

 

But then why should I really care, it certianly won't be me that gets prosecuted for breaking the law. Maybe I will send you a cake with a file in it. But then again maybe I won't

[CharlieT]

Alex

 

There's non so blind as those that can't see.

 

Our emerging winter corn always suffers a bit from grazing Canada's but I put up with it because I like to see them about. They enjoying our lake which we don't shoot, so it holds a good number of waterfowl which I enjoy.

 

However, this year we have rather suffered because where the snow has blown there are some very large exposed areas which have attracted our resident Canada's and a considerable number of their mates who have come to stay for the duration.

 

If the cold weather continues I will have to do something about them and I'm afraid to say that the time is nearly here. Having studied all the relevant documents I can find nothing that overrides the OGL. In fact the OGL itself clearly states "This license may be modified or revoked at any time." Something which has not happened. Bearing this statement in mind I have emailed NE requesting they confirm that no such modification or revocation has been implemented. I have also asked for a definitive answer to the legality of shooting Canada Geese under the OGL should a cold weather ban prohibiting the shooting of wildfowl be implemented.

 

I will post their reply.

 

C

[MC]

Well of course it has not been implemented, the ban was never enforced. BASC called for shooter to exercise restaint while shooting.

 

As you have quite rightly put the OGL can be modified or revoked at anytime. One of those times would be when the ACT OF PARLIAMENT prevents the shooting on species named on a list due to severe weather.

 

So as you say "There are non so blind as those that cannot see"