KenG Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Clayman, everything you've said makes complete sense, but don't bother trying to change Poontang's view, as it will never happen. I don't use cheaper cartridges to save the World, I do it just to keep me shooting on a very limited income. Shooting less than 2000 cartridges a year (around a 1000 at sporting), I've managed to get myself into AA, using the cheapest cartridges I could find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Clayman, everything you've said makes complete sense, but don't bother trying to change Poontang's view, as it will never happen. I don't use cheaper cartridges to save the World, I do it just to keep me shooting on a very limited income. Shooting less than 2000 cartridges a year (around a 1000 at sporting), I've managed to get myself into AA, using the cheapest cartridges I could find. Not quite sure what you mean by that, but it seems you want to shoot 24g loads because they're cheaper? And just because you don't want to pay for the dearer 28g loads you think nobody else should either? So you want a level playing field............as long as it's on your terms You're obviously doing well enough with your 24g loads, so why not just let everyone else use what they want to use? To be honest with you it wouldn't bother me at all if they dropped loads to 24g, but what really worries me is that it's far more likely all lead will be banned, and sooner rather than later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Clayman, everything you've said makes complete sense, but don't bother trying to change Poontang's view, as it will never happen. I don't use cheaper cartridges to save the World, I do it just to keep me shooting on a very limited income. Well done, you can obviously shoot but you still haven't answered my earlier question. What stops people using 32gr loads in competition now? Shooting less than 2000 cartridges a year (around a 1000 at sporting), I've managed to get myself into AA, using the cheapest cartridges I could find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenG Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Not quite sure what you mean by that, but it seems you want to shoot 24g loads because they're cheaper? And just because you don't want to pay for the dearer 28g loads you think nobody else should either? So you want a level playing field............as long as it's on your terms You're obviously doing well enough with your 24g loads, so why not just let everyone else use what they want to use? To be honest with you it wouldn't bother me at all if they dropped loads to 24g, but what really worries me is that it's far more likely all lead will be banned, and sooner rather than later. I don't use 24g loads , I buy the cheapest 28g cartridges I can find.. My last batch of Nobels cost me £129/1000, a bit painful on the shoulder but they work. If you think it's inevitable that lead will be banned, then I doubt if Clay Shooting will survive in it's present form. I've never tried steel, but if it stays affordable I'd give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I don't use 24g loads , I buy the cheapest 28g cartridges I can find.. My last batch of Nobels cost me £129/1000, a bit painful on the shoulder but they work. If you think it's inevitable that lead will be banned, then I doubt if Clay Shooting will survive in it's present form. I've never tried steel, but if it stays affordable I'd give it a go. Sorry Ken, my mistake, I read it that you were using 24g loads. Unfortunately, yes I do honestly believe the days of lead are numbered, and you're quite right in saying that clay shooting in particular will have to make big changes to accomodate steel loads. If you're a member of CPSA/WCTSA it wouldn't harm to speak to the director and find out how much they know about the Lead Ammunition Group and how its findings will affect your sport in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenG Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I've been told (by a reliable source) that when Wales gets more law making powers, one of the first things they'll do is ban lead shot in Wales MC, the rules state, no more than 28g in domestic disciplines (used to be 32g years ago), it doesn't mater if it's competition or practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I've been told (by a reliable source) that when Wales gets more law making powers, one of the first things they'll do is ban lead shot in Wales MC, the rules state, no more than 28g in domestic disciplines (used to be 32g years ago), it doesn't mater if it's competition or practice. I know that, your statement about dropping to 24gr for competition was that people would use 28gr and risk being caught. I asked what stops the same people using 32gr now? There are no cartridge checks at shoots, so how would they know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillmouse Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 When you take a referees course one of the common scenarios on the practical section is somebody slipping a couple of "bombs" in the gun. With proper hearing defenders on and watching all other potential breaches of the rules it is quite rare to spot it. A couple of 36grm loads normally get spotted but a 32gram against a 28gram is scarcely noticeable. Human nature being what it is there will inevitably be some who see the rules as a line to cross no matter where we set that line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 When you take a referees course one of the common scenarios on the practical section is somebody slipping a couple of "bombs" in the gun. With proper hearing defenders on and watching all other potential breaches of the rules it is quite rare to spot it. A couple of 36grm loads normally get spotted but a 32gram against a 28gram is scarcely noticeable. Human nature being what it is there will inevitably be some who see the rules as a line to cross no matter where we set that line. What would be the point though If you're on a normal cartridge will break the clay and if you're off you'll miss anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I know that, your statement about dropping to 24gr for competition was that people would use 28gr and risk being caught. I asked what stops the same people using 32gr now? There are no cartridge checks at shoots, so how would they know? Most club shoots are self regulating, they rely on the shooters to be honest and those in the squad to monitor what others are doing in both rules and safety. A Registered CPSA shoot has a scorer at every station, and often a roaming referee . They have the power under the rules to take a cart from the chamber and inspect it. At the higher levels, things like scales and micrometers are available for internal component checks. So, while its uncommon to see checks, the rules allow for this to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Sports organising bodies (international or national) have allways tampered with the rules of their sports. Sometimes these rule changes are in response to new playing methods altering how a sport is played, sometimes they are in response to new equipment that has been designed, and sometimes they are in response to the need to differentiate between the standard of competitors at the highest level as professionalism drives a higher level of performance. Sometimes rule changes enacted for the good of the top end of sport are disasterous for the grass roots level. I could quote some examples but It would be going at a tangent from the discussion. As a grass roots shooter who expects to hit about 60% at straw baler sporting layouts, I shoot 28g loads on the basis of i don't want to handicap myself unnecessarily with less lead in the air and being a big guy have no need to worry about recoil. If 24g loads where made compulsory and assuming £10 per thousand of cost saving I would save probably £20-30 per year, and as the strawbalers would probably reduce the long range stuff slightly I would probably see little difference in my scores (not that i'm bothered about them) I guess the people who would really benefit are the serious competitors who are shooting 1000 a week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I've yet to see 24gram cartridges cheaper than the bog standard 28s. Lighter loads need more powder so any saving would be negligible anyway, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I've yet to see 24gram cartridges cheaper than the bog standard 28s. Lighter loads need more powder so any saving would be negligible anyway, IMO. -he`s not wrong, more powder is used to keep the pressures the same (and to completely burn all the powder) although 24g carts "usually" go quicker, 21g carts are about 1400fps. from an econamic point of view, alittle fast burning powder and light shot charges are the cheap shells. (they would be slow too !) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Here are some articles written by Tim Woodhouse on lighter loads. http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/archive/nov_dec05/Light%20Fantastic.pdf http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/archive/jun_jul08/Dawn%20of%20a%20new%20era.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 i`ve come to the point that i`ll use whatever shells i can get my hands on, i have shot alot of steel. but i just have to say. yes it is slower, but you can still hit the long targets, you just need more lead and skill. is there an advantage? no, is it cheaper? yes. i just dont care what i shoot at clays. there will never be a sub 1oz limit. it will hurt the cartridge industry too much. those of you who say steel is cwap, and i`m never ever shooting it...... just wait, sooner or later, you will either give up shooting or shoot steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwb Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I've yet to see 24gram cartridges cheaper than the bog standard 28s. Lighter loads need more powder so any saving would be negligible anyway, IMO. have to agree here 24g are just as expensive if not more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 have to agree here 24g are just as expensive if not more That may be because you are not comparing like with like in a range of 21g / 24g / 28g. Most budget carts are 28g and often don't have a cost saving lighter load equivalent, so the re-seller may be selling budget 28s lower than a better quality 24g. Express English Sporters 28g as a budget cart are around £150 / 1000, but no 24g equiv load. The entry level 21g HVE from Express is about the same, but 24g are £178, and 28g £191/ 1000 If you are being offered 24g carts at prices the same or higher than the 28g at the ground or shop, its likely the lighter loads are a superior cartridge. The most significant cost in a cart is the lead weight content. The differential on Express range is about £13 / 1000 more for a 28g load against the same in the range loaded 24g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I do believe that you get what you pay for in this world. I have tried these 28gm "budget" shells and for me the recoil levels alone made me take them back to exchange for a decent 24gm shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 thats another thing about the steel shells. they aint recoil friendly. i`m to try the 21g loads next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenG Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 I know that, your statement about dropping to 24gr for competition was that people would use 28gr and risk being caught. I asked what stops the same people using 32gr now? There are no cartridge checks at shoots, so how would they know? MC, it wasn't me who said that Check back through the thread and you will find the real culprit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 thats another thing about the steel shells. they aint recoil friendly. i`m to try the 21g loads next. steels shells are very light on recoil....up to 28g anyway shaun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Check back through the thread and you will find the real culprit It was me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 steels shells are very light on recoil....up to 28g anyway shaun They might be for you but I find 28gm of lead excessive, some of us feel recoil and some seem unaffected by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 have to agree here 24g are just as expensive if not more Cheaper but not much :yes: http://www.continentalshooting.co.uk/shop/supplies/cartridges.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 They might be for you but I find 28gm of lead excessive, some of us feel recoil and some seem unaffected by it. Oh im in the felt recoil camp which is why i use 21/24g....but have tried 28g steel and thought they were very light... shaun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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