Drop to 24g for home competition?

[COACH]

I`v been shooting soft 24g cartridges for years now and my scores went up immediately, particularly on pairs and on the skeet doubles.

I now shoot mainly 21g with no drop in skeet or sporting scores.

I will use 24g for FITASC though, but I dont shoot that often because it`s too expensive.

I don`t like steel at all.

[Dustem Dave]

I`v been shooting soft 24g cartridges for years now and my scores went up immediately, particularly on pairs and on the skeet doubles.

I now shoot mainly 21g with no drop in skeet or sporting scores.

I will use 24g for FITASC though, but I dont shoot that often because it`s too expensive.

I don`t like steel at all.

what shot size do you shoot skeet with in 24 grm 9s 8s ?? also what choke? I'm gonna shoot some skeet sunday usually shoot sporting with 28 grm but i,ve got some 24 grm no 8s would they be ok

[bisleyboy]

Jerry, if 24gm lead and steel shot are so great then why dont all the top shots use them?? oh they dont do they...

 

i dont think you really are helping the sport by suggesting such things.

[bisleyboy]

Clayman has put out a lot of detail, and much he says is spot on. Also our top shots do use 24g, and win!!! All the medals won recently in Dehli where with 24grams, thats the rules!! its only in the domestic disciplines thats 28g is allowed, and those don't win Commonwealth and Olympic medals.

Also I was present at Kingsferry and witnessed the testing of steel shot fired at plate steel, and it did NOT bounce back 20m as some suggest, in fact not much difference to lead. Remember steel shot is not hardened like ball bearings, its a softer alloy and does flatten, albeit not as much as lead.

Like it or not, BASC or not, the European moves will unfortunately bring lead to its knees. I don't want it nor do you, but its coming.

BB

[poontang]

Clayman has put out a lot of detail, and much he says is spot on. Also our top shots do use 24g, and win!!! All the medals won recently in Dehli where with 24grams, thats the rules!! its only in the domestic disciplines thats 28g is allowed, and those don't win Commonwealth and Olympic medals.

Also I was present at Kingsferry and witnessed the testing of steel shot fired at plate steel, and it did NOT bounce back 20m as some suggest, in fact not much difference to lead. Remember steel shot is not hardened like ball bearings, its a softer alloy and does flatten, albeit not as much as lead.

Like it or not, BASC or not, the European moves will unfortunately bring lead to its knees. I don't want it nor do you, but its coming.

BB

 

Interesting post BB.

 

Personally I'm not that bothered about dropping to 24g loads as my main worry is the banning of lead altogether. If we could get away with a simple drop of 4g per load I'd say we got off lightly, but it's not going to happen.

I mentioned in another thread about the EU getting involved in the LAG's findings and it seems from what you're saying that they'll be the ones who ultimately decide the fate of lead in this country, just as I thought.

It seems to me that the LAG are spending more time investigating the alternatives to lead rather than trying to save it. The testing at Kigsferry would certainly indicate this.

I think we all know what's coming, I just wish they'd come clean and tell us.

Edited January 27, 2011 by poontang

[MC]

Clayman has put out a lot of detail, and much he says is spot on. Also our top shots do use 24g, and win!!! All the medals won recently in Dehli where with 24grams, thats the rules!! its only in the domestic disciplines thats 28g is allowed, and those don't win Commonwealth and Olympic medals.

Also I was present at Kingsferry and witnessed the testing of steel shot fired at plate steel, and it did NOT bounce back 20m as some suggest, in fact not much difference to lead. Remember steel shot is not hardened like ball bearings, its a softer alloy and does flatten, albeit not as much as lead.

Like it or not, BASC or not, the European moves will unfortunately bring lead to its knees. I don't want it nor do you, but its coming.

BB

 

All the medals were won in Delhi with 24gr because that is the rules. Not because the competitors chose to use them. I bet 99% of the top grade shooter would use 28gr if they were allowed.

 

So you witnessed something and the report that was made is untrue? Can you tell me what you have done about that? Or are you like all the rest who will kick off when lead is finally banned when you could have done something about it?

 

I like Poontang believe that the LAG ought to be spending more time defending lead instead of looking at the alternatives. Although Gamebore have pulled a blinder by getting possibly the greatest clay shooter ever to tell us how good steel is.

 

I assume that GD will be using steel from now on in all competitions? No I thought not.

[wymberley]

Hi,

Could there be some confusion about this 20m (although I seem to remember yards) distance. 20 odd years ago when all this started up I was an MoD range warden with several civilian shooting qualifications as well. Now, I can't remember whether it was civvy or MoD and what it specifically related to but I'm sure I can recall something about the existing 10 yd splash back SAFETY distance being increased to 20 with the advent of steel shot.

 

Now for something really controversial! When lead is banned, health and safety will demand various new and possibly costly modifications to clay pigeon shooting grounds where necessary.

 

Scenario:

 

We bought some land off a local farmer 25 years ago which had previously been either grazed or put to the plough and opened what turned out to be a reasonably popular clay range. we opened 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year during that time and excluding events averaged 20 shooters/100 clays daily. We've always banned steel shot because we do know that there are some safety implications as we understand it. We don't really want to spend the money and go through all the hastle of carrying out the necessary work, so, just like the farmer, we're going to diversify and close on the last day before the ban comes in and move into open cast mining (it was lucky we banned the steel shot as no one seems to know what nasty toxic heavy metals it contains which could have contaminated our pure product) before finally selling the land. It is fortunate for us that one of our workers had been in ground pollution control machinery some time ago and made the suggestion - he'll have a nice retirement bonus.

We don't need to do anything except count the money while we holiday somewhere nice and warm.

Cheers,

PS You can tell i'm bored and the ****** shingles is giving me jip!

Edit: Spelling

Edited January 27, 2011 by wymberley

[David BASC]

BASC is not aware of any sound, peer-reviewed science which raises doubts over the use of "steel" (ie soft iron) shot in terms of an adverse impact on the environment. It's one thing to show that various trace metals are in typical steel shot but another to show that they are released into the environment and taken up by plants/wildlife sufficiently to cause them harm, or to exceed statutory limits, especially in view of all the other sources of corroding iron out there.

 

 

Clayman refers to the NSRA meeting, at which claims against steel shot were made by a German clay shooter. This issue needs to be seen in the context of certain European hunter/trade interests doing everything they can to retain the use of lead in their clay shooting, and further afield.

 

Best wishes

 

David

[MC]

David,

 

Is BASC aware of any "sound, peer-reviewed science" against the use of lead shot? As Poontang has already said the LAG seem to be very focussed on the alternatives instead of the solution.

 

Everybody knows that steel is the only economically viable alternative even though it is inferior to lead. However it is being slated every which way you turn. I use it because the law says I cannot use lead to shoot wildfowl, however I have been wildfowling long enough to remember using lead. I used to use standard 1 1/8oz loads of 5's for ducks and possibly 3's for geese. Now I am having to use High performance steel loads to get anywhere near the performance of lead shot.

 

Whether steel ricochets or not isn't really the point. The point is lead shot really is the only way for shooting to carry on, if lead does get banned then it is a slippery slope for shooting as steel will be next as everyone is saying how bad it is and how badly it performs.

[BlaserF3]

What worries me is that Harradine bloke at B.A.S.C. becoming a ballistics expert, and the lack of scientific evidence in the U.K. for a ban of lead.

 

This thread has now gone off track

[clayman]

BASC is not aware of any sound, peer-reviewed science which raises doubts over the use of "steel" (ie soft iron) shot in terms of an adverse impact on the environment. It's one thing to show that various trace metals are in typical steel shot but another to show that they are released into the environment and taken up by plants/wildlife sufficiently to cause them harm, or to exceed statutory limits, especially in view of all the other sources of corroding iron out there.

 

 

Clayman refers to the NSRA meeting, at which claims against steel shot were made by a German clay shooter. This issue needs to be seen in the context of certain European hunter/trade interests doing everything they can to retain the use of lead in their clay shooting, and further afield.

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

As I recall the information provided at the NSRA meeting, the main points made by the presenter, were that lead encapsulates with an oxide coating and had a degradation rate of 1-3% per annum, while Steel and its alloys had a degradation rate of 100% per annum.

 

The point that was emphasised in defence of lead, was that the medical profession has huge quantities of data on recognising the symptoms of lead poisoning and treatment methods are well established - where-as the amount of data available on recognising heavy metal poisoning and treating is was poor by comparison.

 

The speakers conclusion was that we are better off controlling the devil we know, aka lead shot, rather than forcing a global change to steel across all shooting and then finding in time that there are additional un-forcast negative effects on the environment and people /animals.

 

In defence of retaining lead, this is an important consideration. The view was that until we know more about the full long term effects of replacing lead as the norm and as a result put out tonnes of steel and alloy constituents into the environment, we should stick with lead and control it with our known studies.

 

I think this is a good point - we have steel in critical situations, wetlands, SSSIs etc - but taking situations like clay grounds where the fall out of shot is contained and there are recovery and recycling systems that can be used and are compulsory already in some Countries, is there yet definitive evidence that lead is the worse of the two? There is an easy conclusion made by many environmentalists that lead is poisonous while steel is not - but when the steel is not pure iron but may contain any number of other trace elements, the issue of what is best for the planet does become very clouded.

Edited January 27, 2011 by clayman

[wymberley]

Hi,

Thankyou David for confirming the iron. Must say though that I cannot criticise anyone (German clay shooter) for fighting their corner as robustly as possible. We could learn from their example.

Blaser, Clayman had this thread under discussion in his OP.

[shaun4860]

what shot size do you shoot skeet with in 24 grm 9s 8s ?? also what choke? I'm gonna shoot some skeet sunday usually shoot sporting with 28 grm but i,ve got some 24 grm no 8s would they be ok

 

I use 24g/21g for skeet/sporting/trap in 8 shot....skt/skt for skeet.....mostly 1/4 and 1/4 for sporting and 1/2 and 3/4 for trap.

 

But i shoot for fun, my scores are my scores but if they brought in a ban on lead then i fear our club will close as we are fibre wad only.

 

people should be allowed to use what they want within the regulations, if they want to use 28g lead then let them.

 

shaun

Edited January 27, 2011 by shaun4860

[David BASC]

Good afternoon MC.

 

In what context? - On spent lead harming wetlands bird - yes there are loads - but this thread is about clay shooting not wildfowling – , there is another thread about lead / steel running in ‘general shooting’

 

LAG , as far as I can see, are not there to make a decision one way of the other but to look at the risks of lead- if there are any, and then look at how those risks can be minimised.

 

I can’t see anything on the LAG web site or them minutes from their meetings that suggests they are focussing on alternatives.

 

You make a good point though in my view about people bad mouthing steel and the threat that could pose to the longevity of shooting.

 

clayman

What happens to the lead /steel / bismuth or what ever depends on the soil / environmental conditions - it will not automatically form an inert metal oxide !

 

I agree that lead reclamation on grounds is gaining in popularity - but not practical for grounds which operate in woodland for example.

 

But back to the OP - I agree let people use 24g if they want to and they find it effective!

 

David

[COACH]

what shot size do you shoot skeet with in 24 grm 9s 8s ?? also what choke? I'm gonna shoot some skeet sunday usually shoot sporting with 28 grm but i,ve got some 24 grm no 8s would they be ok

 

The 8s will be fine Dave. Chokes, as open as possible sk/sk or 1/4/1/4

 

Regards, Coach.

Edited January 27, 2011 by COACH

[poontang]

 

 

Clayman refers to the NSRA meeting, at which claims against steel shot were made by a German clay shooter. This issue needs to be seen in the context of certain European hunter/trade interests doing everything they can to retain the use of lead in their clay shooting, and further afield.

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

Well good on the German shooter then, because as far as I can see that's exactly what BASC and the other pro-shooting organisations on the LAG should be doing.

 

The original letter from the RSPB/WWT to DEFRA made it quite clear that they want lead shot/bullets banned, citing the poisoning of carrion eating birds feeding on carcasses of animals/birds shot with lead, and of course the health issues with human consumption of shot game. Some of their original evidence comes from the US Peregrine Fund Foundation conference. A conference where Debbie Pain from the WWT said:

 

The second point described by Milton Friend was

the identification of acceptable alternatives. Legislative

change can happen in the absence of these

when a problem is deemed sufficiently serious:

however, it is always far better if acceptable alternatives

can be found, as solutions require compliance,

and the social and economic impacts of

change must be managed. Alternatives to lead shot

and expanding nose bullets are available, as we

heard from Barnett Rattner and Vic Oltrogge. Indeed,

John Harradine from BASC commented that

alternative gunshot in the UK is very effective.

Slightly different shooting techniques may be required,

some alternatives may cost a bit more (others

may cost less), and the work of John Schulz indicated

that alternative shot are unlikely to increase

crippling rates. Alternatives exist, they work well,

and their effectiveness, cost and choice will all improve

with market forces. However, as Vernon

Thomas indicated, market forces require that a

guaranteed market exists, and this requires legislation.

I believe that the acceptability of alternatives

goes back to the Why part of the equation above.

Many hunters may not find it acceptable to use alternatives

to lead, and there is work to do here; motivating

a change in behavior requires excellent

communication and clear messages.

 

It doesn't sit well with me that a senior BASC figure seems to be agreeing with anti lead campaigners and is indeed suggesting that alternatives are just as effective.

 

I would suggest that the last highlighted paragraph is what we're actually seeing now. A slow feed of information on the virtues of steel shot as an alternative to lead.

 

David, please don't take this as a dig at you, or indeed BASC. I realise there are other groups involved with the LAG but you're the only one big enough to stick your head above the parapet.

However, as this thread is about clay shooting I would ask if you could find out whether CPSA have had any representation on the LAG yet? If not, why not?

I would suggest clay shooters put more lead in the air/ground than any other shooting group, and I find it a little strange that their opinion hasn't been sought (up to the last published minutes).

Edited January 27, 2011 by poontang

[BlaserF3]

I would really like to find out how John Harradine has become an expert on ballistics on alternative gunshot used in shotguns.

 

And it does really begger belief that any one from the sport of clay shooting with it's high deposit of lead around the country as poontang mentions is not even involved in these so called studies.

Edited January 27, 2011 by BlaserF3

[MC]

I think the reason noone from clay shooting has been involved is because the RSPB/WWT do not care about clay shooting. This attack on their behalf is very much focussed around the lead shot that may or may not be ingested by birds. And they have tagged on the eating of shot game on as a last ditch attempt.

 

As I have said before, with Gamebore wheeling out GD to tell us all how good steel is clay shooters don't need anymore enemies.

 

I see noone has stood up and said he is talking out of his *****, have they?

[JonD]

I think the reason noone from clay shooting has been involved is because the RSPB/WWT do not care about clay shooting. This attack on their behalf is very much focussed around the lead shot that may or may not be ingested by birds. And they have tagged on the eating of shot game on as a last ditch attempt.

 

As I have said before, with Gamebore wheeling out GD to tell us all how good steel is clay shooters don't need anymore enemies.

 

I see noone has stood up and said he is talking out of his *****, have they?

 

Well this week on Fieldsport's TV he is saying how good the White, Blue and Black Diamond are, none of them are steel!

 

Guessing he won't be taking steel to the worlds next week lol.

 

As a skeet shooter I use a LOT of steel but wouldn't want to shoot sporting\ABT\DTL\OT with it.

[0145wirbelwind]

If you dont like recoil buy a auto, the more lead in the air the better and as for steel the court is still out on that one. As for me , give me lead any day !!!!!!

[Guest cookoff013]

If you dont like recoil buy a auto, the more lead in the air the better and as for steel the court is still out on that one. As for me , give me lead any day !!!!!!

 

just from the point of your last comment, if lead is banned, shooters like faulds and digweed, would, with their sponsors claim steel is a suitable alternate. and that shooting with steel is better. (just because they are told to) there sponsorship is to use brand X cartridges.

 

they will say is as good as lead.

[David BASC]

The CPSA will, I am sure, be asked to help the LAG when they turn their attention to clay pigeon shooting, afar all who else is better placed than the CPSA to lend their input to this specific area of shooting.

 

By the way, the John H was misquoted in that piece you highlighted, he has never said this!

 

David

[0145wirbelwind]

Cookoff if you want to shoot steel, you carry on. As i said for me. I am not sure about shooting steel and what were to the barrel over time it might do. Ok new guns are steel prof ? or so they say. I just dont like the idea of steel on steel, it just doesnt sit right with me. Ok they say that the wad is the only part to touch the barrel ? we will see in time( As for the likes of Faulds and Digweed , i buy my guns and cartridges so i shoot wot i like)

[VicW]

The CPSA will, I am sure, be asked to help the LAG when they turn their attention to clay pigeon shooting, afar all who else is better placed than the CPSA to lend their input to this specific area of shooting.

David

 

The CPSA allegedly represent and are the governing body for clay shooting in this country. As such they represent the largest body of lead shot users in the country yet instead of insisting that they were involved in the LAG manoeuvres from the outset, they left it to the Shooting Sports Council to represent them.The CPSA's negative reasoning was that they felt sure they would be called upon to give an expert opinion if required by the LAG.

 

Vic.

[Guest cookoff013]

Cookoff if you want to shoot steel, you carry on. As i said for me. I am not sure about shooting steel and what were to the barrel over time it might do. Ok new guns are steel prof ? or so they say. I just dont like the idea of steel on steel, it just doesnt sit right with me. Ok they say that the wad is the only part to touch the barrel ? we will see in time( As for the likes of Faulds and Digweed , i buy my guns and cartridges so i shoot wot i like)

 

i will shoot steel, all of the bad points of steel have been worked out by the manufacturers.

i dont like the idea of steel on steel, believe you me, it took me along time to actually, start loading the stuff. i sellected the best components that i can get my hands on. the best components that "protect" my barrel. the wads i use are tungsten safe, which has a hardness way above steel. i`m even scared about shooting hevishot.

 

most manufacturers wads are ****. but i select the loads that have good wads. like gamebore, 1oz steel.

 

with the wads i select, i see no pin-hole-ing in the wads. thats why i use them and load them too. i use a thick wad for my speed steel.

 

unless you have looked into it i`m afraid you will have no faith.

no manufacturer would release a cartridge that had steel on steel.

 

cook.