Countryside Alliance

[DRTaylor]

Dave CA, many thanks for your answer although I`m bound to say that you have rather imperiously brushed aside the detail ending with ".... I believe this addresses both points." when actually it does not.

 

I understand that you have no ambition to replicate the BASC structure for accessing the grass roots opinions of members, why would you want to find out what members really want or indulge in democracy which is so damnably expensive?

 

I conclude that there is in fact no money available for the running of such committees and that democracy figures low on the CA`s list of priorities. You willfully do not want to know what your members desire since it would hamper your ability to make up policy as you go.

 

Plainly, the CA intends to ditch wildfowling and I assume that my chairmanship of that committee will not now come to pass.

 

Your comments about the Regional Committees are rather confusing. Many years ago I sat on a then BFSS regional committee whose entire focus was directed towards local events and fund raising. Indeed that appears to still be the case with the current job description for a regional officer including the undertaking to raise £80,000 per annum. And so it should. But the fact is that the regional committees are not intended to be a conduit for members to influence policy or have their say in the CA`s direction other than through the leaden procedure of lobbying the elected Board.

 

There are no Advisory Committees because the CA hierarchy does not want to hear what its members have to say.

 

Why would any one want to sign up to an association where your money speaks but no one is interested in what you have to say? (David, Don`t try to answer that one! No. Go on, have a stab at it!)

 

Mudpatten,

 

All you seem to suggest is that unless we implement an antiquated and expensive system, democracy will be lost. You then equate this with representation of wildfowling, I do not see the direct link. To me this implies that you are willing to become protectionist about your own sport at the expense of others, why should stalkers suffer for example? Are you happy to suggest that this system be set up for every field sport or would it be a mixed forum?

 

This is the reason the CA will not copy the BASC structure, it may work for individual interests, but it is completely unworkable for multiple sports. As BASC is finding now with its drive towards driven shooting (it's latest advert doesn’t even have a 'folwer in it). Are you willing to fund the equivalent structure for all shooting sports?

 

Members of any organisation have the ultimate in democracy: they can leave. Like a company to its shareholders, this makes the organisation responsible to the members. This is also the reason why having several organisations in one area is necessary - if people do not like the actions of one, they can join the other without the risk of their sport being unrepresented. BASC, CA, NGO, CPSA, NRA, NRSA, we all have common ground and could lose members to each other if they don't like the decisions being made, we therefore all try to cater to our members needs. Alternatives prevent a monopoly position and ultimately, the our sport being flushed down the pan by the decisions of a few.

 

David

[David BASC]

I think all he is asking for David, is how is the CA structured in terms of how are members interests represented.

 

I am not sure what you don’t like about the way BASC runs – i.e. members propose and second from within their number candidates for Council and all members then have a free vote to elect from this selection their representatives on Council.

 

We also have Advisory committees giving advice and guidance on specific issues to Council who make the final policy decisions. Members of course can feed into this process at all levels.

 

All I think mudpattern wants to know is how the democratic structure of the CA works? How do members have their say – apart from just voting with their feet of course!

 

Not sure why you are picking on our latest film advert. Yes it feature beaters, pickers up ,some driven shooters and some rough shooters. It was made for a specific event, a quick call or e-mail to me would have told you this David.

 

Its daft to even think it signifies a move towards driven shooting at the expense of wildfowing, or stalking or pigeon shooting or fox shooting or any other live quarry discipline by BASC.

 

Just as the CA’s adverts in the printed media, which have only been targeted at shooting though 2010 and so far in 2011, don’t signify a move by the CA away from local foods, hunting, fishing, local services, local transport , farmers and conservation and fly tipping etc do they.

 

I will be interested to see if the CA recruitment campaign this year again just targets shooters in 2011 or if you will be spreading your marketing out to the wider community you represent?

 

 

The CA is a broad church orgnisation with 5 main areas of activity which defend the liberties of the people who live and work in the countryside. Their vision is of a vital, working and thriving countryside that benefits everyone. This is a great cause and should be promoted equally along these lines in my view to all 5 sectors that the CA are active in, if not then you will, as I mentioned in my other posts, create the impression that you are targeting just one sector of your market, and this wil keep ruffling feathers.

 

So as I said above, cooperation is the way forward, will you be at the meeting on Tuesday by the way ? I won’t be there but Bill will of course.

 

I agree Graham is a great chap, I have known him for over 15 years, he used to be on our Council, he is a very long standing BASC member, he worked closely with BASC as the Press / Media contact at the CA years ago when we used to issue join press releases on the lead issue for example way back the late ‘90’s and early 00's as I remember. He was also contracted in by the CA as you remember to help them with their oral presentation to the HASC along side our Mike Eveleigh, and did a great job when the Chairman of the Committee (Keith Vaz) and some of the committee went to Bisley. A good man to have on your team in my view.

 

I think live quarry shooters should join BASC to support the wide range of BASC projects that are aimed at keeping shooting safe. And, if like me they also support hunting and the other activities the CA promote and represent then, like me, join the CA as well to support their projects to keep a working and thriving countryside that benefits everyone.

 

David

[mudpatten]

Dave CA,

 

Again thank you for taking the trouble to respond to my comments. Please note that I did`nt say "Thank you for answering my questions" since,as usual,you have not.

 

No matter. What utterly appalls me is your comment that "Members of any organisation have the ultimate in democracy:they can leave."

 

So there it is. It`s now out in the open for all to see. Join the CA only if you thoroughly understand and agree with the party line on any given subject because if you don`t, there is no way to change policy or the direction of the juggernaut short of throwing yourself off.

 

Utterly amazing that in the 21st century the principles of democracy should be so trampled and despised. Mind you, I can see how this has come about. One of the most notable things with the old BFSS and early CA was that its upper management was top heavy with retired Colonels, Lieutenant Generals, Brigadiers etc. Splendid fellows to a man, but all steeped in the military way of doing things.

 

These chaps just knew that they were right, after all they were born to rule, and that one should jolly well do as they said! Nothing changed there then. Damn sir, it worked as a management method in 1914-18 and it`s ruddy well going to work now! Now get back in your trench, fix bayonets and await the whistle. We`re going over the top at 0600 in another needless frontal assault.

 

The ultimate in democracy. The members can leave. Apparently, many have!

[anser2]

Quote from David CA Firstly, the CA is not trying to attract BASC members .

If this statement is true why did last year Alice Barnard now your director try to persuade a club of which I am a member to leave BASC and join the CA.

 

 

And why did you have an advert in the shooting Times on Sep 29th 2010 stating the difference between the fees of BASC and the CA in very large bold large print.

 

 

What made the whole advert a big con was it proclaimed that the CA membership was 50% less and then in tiny print that needed a magnifing glass to read at the bottom of the page outside the advert pannel where the ST date usualy is is the following disclaimer.

 

 

For new members for first year only"

 

99% of readers would never notice that line and any of those that did fewer still would be able to read the tiny print.

 

What a con. Any honest organisation would have would have proclaimed in bold letters INTRODUCTION OFFER .

Edited February 20, 2011 by anser2

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

As I said above, I think live quarry shooters should join BASC to support the wide range of BASC projects that are aimed at keeping shooting safe.

 

And, if like me they also support hunting and the other activities the CA promote and represent then, like me, join the CA as well to support their projects to keep a working and thriving countryside that benefits everyone.

 

Of course, and I should have said this, there are other organisations that you may well feel a greater affiliation for, so the world is you oyster.

 

But if,, as anser2 says, there is direct lobbying on the ground by one organisation or another to try and poach members / clubs from BASC or indeed anyone else and adverts targeting just BASC in a price comparison style then this is not going to do anyone any favours is it?

 

It will keep creating disharmony between organisations and I am sure we dont need that. We have plenty of enemies without making foes of each other for goodness sake. Would you agree David?

 

Different organisations have different strengths, lets accept it. All the organisations should play to their strengths, set out their stall and let the consumer decide.

 

If the CA is going to get back towards its BFSS roots and refocus on shooting and fishing than thats fine, as David says they he notices there are improvements to be made. As I said a direct survey of your existing and recent lapsed CA members would be a good place to start as they will tell you clearly what their demands and needs are.

 

Recruiting members on an incentive scheme is all well and good, I have used incentives in the past, and its a common tactic in all forms of sales and marketing. Getting new customers / members is not the hard bit; the hard bit is keeping them, especially if they have joined mainly on price. As soon as that price advantage falls away…so do they.

 

So although its great to see you on here David, and I hope you keep active on this forum, if you do want to know what the CA should be delivering to its shooting members I think a properly formatted survey in the CA mag, or a targeted direct mail of a few thousand is the best way to go

 

David

Edited February 20, 2011 by David BASC

[OCD]

AS both David's are posting on this thread I will pose this question to you both.

what are either organisation doing in respect of defending the profession of gamekeeping? how are you countering the continued attacks by the rspb and their insistence that keepers are persecuting birds of prey.What steps are you taking to ensure that snaring will remain a legal method of pest control?and one specifically for Davidbasc why do you think keepers became disillusioned with the basc and felt their interests would be better served with a new organisation despit having limited resource and member numbers?

 

Thanks OCD

[anser2]

OCD , Sadly you are on a very sticky wicket over birds of prey. Though clearly gamekeepers have a lot more restraint over raptors these days there are still a few rotten apples. I work in the countryside and frequently with keepers and though most accept raptors there are limits and problem birds are dealt with quietly. I have done a lot of bird surveys over the years for farmers wanting HLS and for environmental impact surveys. It is very clear that on some shoots raptors are absent when the habitat is perfect and the surrounding land holds healthy populations of them. At times a pair of raptors settle in at the start of the surveys ( which can last up to 1 year ) only to disappear. Shortly after another pair appear only to vanish again. I have found trapped owls and hawks from time to time. One estate I know they target sparowhawks , but leave other hawks alone. On another they will not have tawny owls near their release pens.

 

Over most of the country the majority raptors are left alone and the low scale persecution is not a conservation problem , but to ask any shooting organisation to defend these actions is very difficult be it CA or BASC. It only takes a few cases to come into the public eye and the problem of defending gamekeepering becomes a lot harder. I am no supporter of the RSPB , but there is no way of getting away from the fact they do have a case . On the bright side is that we are having a new generation of keepers coming in now that have a far more sensible approach to raptors.

 

http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/category/2010-persecution-incidents/

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-12088673

 

 

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...d-2452166.html

 

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/birdcrime_tcm9-260567.pdf

 

Of course there is a certain amount of spin in these articles but there no getting away from the fact that raptor persecution exists in the UK. So the job of any shooting organisation to defend such actions becomes almost impossible. Its time the shooting community woke up to the fact that if we want game shooting to continue we are just going to have to learn to live with raptors otherwise those small minority who continue to kill hawks\owls will bring about an end to it due to the demands of the public.

[Glenshooter]

AS both David's are posting on this thread I will pose this question to you both.

what are either organisation doing in respect of defending the profession of gamekeeping? how are you countering the continued attacks by the rspb and their insistence that keepers are persecuting birds of prey.What steps are you taking to ensure that snaring will remain a legal method of pest control?and one specifically for Davidbasc why do you think keepers became disillusioned with the basc and felt their interests would be better served with a new organisation despit having limited resource and member numbers?

 

Thanks OCD

 

AS I hope David BASC is taking some time off work, even over the weekend, as a BASC member, maybe I can help here.

 

And ref keepers setting up another organisation, I think this was answered in a recent thread. One that you posted on a few times, IIRC (NGO vs BASC insurance). see post 89 on that thread for comments that David has already made ref Gamekeepers. Seems there are about 5,000 in BASC.

 

BASC Gamekeepers' Fair, Catton Park, Walton on Trent, Derbyshire

9 - 10 April 2011, Location: Derbyshire

Related website: www.basc.org.uk/en/basc-game-and-country-fairs/midland/

 

Contact details: Steve Bloomfield Midland Regional Director BASC Midland Centre Doveridge Clay Sports Club Upwoods Road Doveridge Ashbourne DE6 5LN Tel: 01889 565050 Email: midland@basc.org.uk

 

2010 saw the introduction of two new features designed to give greater depth to the show and attract both country sports enthusiasts along with members of the general public. Stalking 2010, the dedicated deer management village and the ‘Game’s On’ food hall were so successful that they will repeated and improved for 2011.

 

The BASC main stand will form the centre of the show and will include a new ‘Gamekeeping Village’ along with the Gamekeepers’ pavilion where the BASC gamekeeping team will feature interesting products and information aimed directly at the keepering profession.

 

To promote the Gamekeepers’ Fair we will again increase our campaign in the shooting press, local newspapers and radio, BASC mail shots and roadside advertising boards.

 

We look forward to seeing you again in 2011, thank you in advance for your continued support and assure you of our commitment to providing a quality and well run event.

 

Steve Bloomfield

Midland Regional Director

 

But also....

 

Gamekeeping & DIY Shoot Awareness Days 5 March 2011

 

Gamekeepers' Clay Shoot 8 March 2011

 

 

Gamekeeping & DIY Shoot Awareness Day, 12 March 2011 This day is aimed at amateur / part-time keepers or anyone who simply would like to learn more about how shoots are managed. To widen general experience in an informal day demonstrations and question and answer sessions will take attendees through all stages of shoot management from planning for the new season to shoot days.

One venue will be used at this stage for the Midland region where various aspects can be demonstrated e.g. release pens, cover crops, lakes / ponds, duck release, vermin control, trap sites, woodland management, shoot days etc.

 

The day will be structured into ten sections:

 

Planning

Selecting game stock

Releasing, release pens and disease control

Pest control

Woodland management

Game crops for driving / feeding / holding

Feeding methods

Ducks and flight ponds

Shoot days

At the end of the day

The day will consist of an informal shoot walk where attendees can ask questions on any stage of the day as each section is addressed.

Cost: £50.00

 

 

HTH - seems that BASC are VERY active with gamekeepers.

[David BASC]

Thanks for the questions

 

Support for gamekeepers

BASC has a game and gamekeeping department staffed by two ex full time keepers, one from Sandringham Estate. We also have a a gamekeeping advisory committee made up of full time keepers who meet on a regular basis to discuss the demands and needs of the profession and what BASC must do about helping at a local an, regional and national level.

 

This boils down to two areas:

At a strategic level our Head of Gamekeeping spends allot of tine responding to government consultations on a range of issues as well as attending meetings with a range of government and other bodies.

 

At a more local level this equates to a network of BASC gamekeepers members on hand to help other ‘keepers on their patch and a series of gamekeepers workshops that the team are planned for this year.

 

Of course we also have the gamekeeping section of the web site here:

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/game-and-gamekeeping/

 

Snares

On snares we have always campaigned for the continued use of snares, as you may know this has recently been a top issue in Scotland and NI. Here is information on snares and what we have recently done – on our own and with the CA:

 

NI

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/pressreleases.cfm/prid/E8EC2C6D-916E-4121-A51BE82F14B13D4F

 

Scotland

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/in-your-area/scotland/scotland-news.cfm/prid/6516D3F8-BD8C-40AD-9DD3CC3667C8F5FE

 

 

Raptors

BASC condemns any persecution of raptors, as I am sure the CA does too. But we will also resist and defend any spurious claim that one of our gamekeeper members are persecuting raptors. We would publicly counter any such spurious claim. I will get more information on this tomorrow; I just need to check a couple of points with a colleague.

 

As to your final question, what actually happened was a split in the gamekeeping committee all those years ago, some of the committee supported BASC’s approach to an issue, others did not. They could not find an agreement so some of the committee left and set up the NGO.

 

 

David

[markbivvy]

http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/news/Thumbs-vote-hunting/article-3212706-detail/article.html

Will it or wont it.

As any other organisation ever got a ban this far.

[David BASC]

I think, and David T will correct me if I am wrong, that the PM has promised a free vote (i.e. no whips?) in the Commons, to see IF the Commons is minded to repeal the Bill.

 

If they vote yes for repeal, I think it has to then go through the full Parliamentary process to be amended / removed which I guess could mean it could get lobbied for / against at every stage of this process.

 

David

Edited February 22, 2011 by David BASC

[OCD]

David thank you for your reply would it be inappropriate to ask on what issue the committee was split?

[David BASC]

From memory it was not a gamekeeping policy issue it was as much to do with a disagreement about how the committee was run. Sometimes the best of marriages end in divorce!

 

David

[OCD]

From memory it was not a gamekeeping policy issue it was as much to do with a disagreement about how the committee was run. Sometimes the best of marriages end in divorce!

 

David

 

thank you

[mudpatten]

As I recall it was about how monies raised by a branch of BASC should be spent. In effect, and as David rightly says, it was more about administration (and personalities)than any conflict over policy or strategy.

 

Whilst remembering that BASC still strongly represents gamekeeping in the ways referred to in other posts,the most interesting part about that whole episode occurs when you look behind the fact that there was a falling out.

 

Firstly, there was,(and still is) a dedicated gamekeepers section consisting of representatives from the profession able to directly access and influence BASC council. That`s to say that democracy was very much in evidence. A concept shunned by some other fieldsports associations.

 

And it is worth noting that the `keepers felt that their interests would be best served by starting up their own association rather than throwing their lot in with the Countryside Alliance.

 

Interesting that.