Rifle grouping

[gixer1]

depends which direction it runs in!!

 

:lol:....ok, ya got me ....

[Ackley]

I have a similar story for the Favourite stalk I had and it was also to do with getting in close in open fields and the buck in question did not have a clue I was there.......a real sense of achievement and what i was always taught stalking was about.

 

In response to there being no difference between a bad shot at 100 or 400 - the difference is if a deer is bad shot at 100 and runs it will be closer that the deer that runs starting at 400 after a bad shot.

 

Regards,

 

 

Gixer

BUT a mis hit is a miss hit no matter what the distance,a running deer is hard to hit any any distance,surely we must agree its the first shot that counts

[Ackley]

Brewsher500

I would love to reply to your statements but oi be honest it would fall on deaf ears,repect to your quarry is a 1 shot clean kill and not guessing where your bullet is going to land

sniping/stalking call it what you will some of us can do both and some cannot,you choose whats right for you,but dont run people down who can push that bit more

Edited April 11, 2011 by Ackley

[gixer1]

BUT a mis hit is a miss hit no matter what the distance,a running deer is hard to hit any any distance,surely we must agree its the first shot that counts

 

 

Totally agree...but would you not say a follow up shot when required is easier at 100 yards than at 400?

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[Bewsher500]

Brewsher500

I would love to reply to your statements but oi be honest it would fall on deaf ears,repect to your quarry is a 1 shot clean kill and not guessing where your bullet is going to land

sniping/stalking call it what you will some of us can do both and some cannot,you choose whats right for you,but dont run people down who can push that bit more

 

likewise. you are pretty quick to make judgements on others opinions.

I value the ability to get close enough to a deer to hear it breathing more than the ability to check a range finder and do some mental maths and change elevation and windage.

 

we obviously have different opinions of what constitutes respect.

"pushing it" is not something I consider when stalking

[Ackley]

likewise. you are pretty quick to make judgements on others opinions.

I value the ability to get close enough to a deer to hear it breathing more than the ability to check a range finder and do some mental maths and change elevation and windage.

 

we obviously have different opinions of what constitutes respect.

"pushing it" is not something I consider when stalking

you didnt read what I said,

I like to do both and Iam very capable of doing both,weather Iam hunting deer in the UK or hunting plains game in Africa,its the end result that matters,close range or long its all a buzz

by the way Iam not making judgements,you are,if your happy with waht you do thats fine,but dont knock others that may push things a little further

[Ackley]

Totally agree...but would you not say a follow up shot when required is easier at 100 yards than at 400?

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

 

the follow up shot would be a 100 yards would it if the beast is running,unless its coming towards you then it would be less,but shooting a deer on the run isnt really the thing to do now is it,

there is no easy running shot,best to watch it and then get on your toes in the same direction

anyone its done to death now,people will do what there capable of,thats a plane and simple fact

[deputy dog]

Well iv just put in for my .243 and after reading a past thread an this one. I feel a bit over whelmed by all the bragging an feather

ruffling at what people claim to be accurately shooting at over any given distance. Grouping acceptable at hundred 100yrds upwards

and what people should be achieving before shooting live quarry. I usually shoot sub 1 in with my HMR at 100yrds. So if i can achieve

that with my .243 i will be pleased, and IMO if i can achieve groupings under the 2in mark at 200yrds. I think that would acceptable for

going at fox or deer at that distance. I will be going down the range a bit at first to get aquainted with my new rifle and get to now its

charateristics an what ammo it prefers and shoots well with. And untill i feel that i'm capable of achieveing consistant

shooting, grouping at any set distance if feel could be my max shooting range. I will not be going out to shoot live quarry. I'm not a

totall novice to center fire shooting, so i cant see it taking that long, though time se isn't an issue. If it does take longer

then so be it. Though i would prefer to use field craft an stalking to get into a reasonable distance to shoot my quarry. That i think

is where true sportmanship comes into it.

 

DD

[Ackley]

I think the point to be made about a follow up shot is the trajectory rate of change. The difference between a 100 and 150 yard deer is little compared to the difference between a 350 and 400 yard deer and the mental rate at which you need to make these calculations is a critical factor if a deer requires a follow up shot after running and stopping 50 yards in either direction.

 

Im not being judgemental, just pointing out a fact nobody has mentioned. I'm sitting well on the fence here, there is a lot of **** on the ground and I have not got my wellies on.

 

you fail along with others regarding a follow up shot on a long range beast,you dont need one as you have all the time in the world to make the shot count,if the condition are not correct you dont take the shot,I can say hand on heart I have never missed a long shot,missed plenty of short ones though,and its the short shots that you mess up on

[gixer1]

Oh well, if you're happy to miss at the short ranges then thats up to you mate, thats your call, but you can't judge all of us just because you miss at 100 yards, don't let it worry you, the ballistics turret maybe doesn't work at these short ranges or your long range eyesight isn't tuned in, just do what you think right mate, i wouldn't be happy missing the short shots, i'd rather get that sorted before trying long range and plains game but if you are happy missing the short ones thats all that matters mate, but don't judge others just because you can't hit at 100 yards and don't get all upset about the short shots....personnaly i'd throw my set up in the nin or run a hacksaw through it if i missed close range or pack it in....

 

 

(read above with tongue in cheek)

 

you are right about one thing ackley....it's done to death....

Edited April 11, 2011 by gixer1

[Ackley]

Oh well, if you're happy to miss at the short ranges then thats up to you mate, thats your call, but you can't judge all of us just because you miss at 100 yards, don't let it worry you, the ballistics turret maybe doesn't work at these short ranges or your long range eyesight isn't tuned in, just do what you think right mate, i wouldn't be happy missing the short shots, i'd rather get that sorted before trying long range and plains game but if you are happy missing the short ones thats all that matters mate, but don't judge others just because you can't hit at 100 yards and don't get all upset about the short shots....personnaly i'd throw my set up in the nin or run a hacksaw through it if i missed close range or pack it in....

 

 

(read above with tongue in cheek)

 

you are right about one thing ackley....it's done to death....

 

dont worry I do have a sence of humour,maybe I sould get a 6x42 with x hairs like two 6 inch nails (used to have one)

[Catweazle]

Oh well, if you're happy to miss at the short ranges then thats up to you mate, thats your call, but you can't judge all of us just because you miss at 100 yards, don't let it worry you, the ballistics turret maybe doesn't work at these short ranges or your long range eyesight isn't tuned in, just do what you think right mate, i wouldn't be happy missing the short shots, i'd rather get that sorted before trying long range and plains game but if you are happy missing the short ones thats all that matters mate, but don't judge others just because you can't hit at 100 yards and don't get all upset about the short shots....personnaly i'd throw my set up in the nin or run a hacksaw through it if i missed close range or pack it in....

 

Brilliant

[Vipa]

One final thing I will say on this thread because it started getting boring when the willy waving target photos stoped! is... There is a valid point to what Ackley was saying (that a few have picked up on and ridiculed)

 

My longest kill is just a shade over 300m, it was from a high tower, it was a beautiful calm day and I sat and watched the beast for about 20 mins, got nice and comfortable and waited until he presented himself perfectly for a broadside... (he was so far away that he didn't have a clue, was very unstressed and was just munching away minding his own business. I had all the time in the world to get rock solid, wait for the right shot and the right time. Probably the most confident shot I've ever taken...

 

My closest shot was 30m, I crept round the corner where 2 rides intersected and there she was... well, 2 of em actually... it was over in a fraction of a second.... rifle up, crosshairs on and trigger pulled... This was all more adrenaline fueled than anything else and my heart was racing! This was probably my least confident shot.

 

In both cases, the result was a good one but if you asked me which one of those shots, in retrospect, was the most likely to produce a bad result for the beast then it would have to be the short range 30m one... After stalking for about 2 hours, I was breathing heavily, my heart was pounding (without the adrenaline) and everything was (had to be) rushed! The long high tower shot was taken after I had been sat patiently for a couple of hours, I was chilled, relaxed, just had a brew... etc.. etc.. Much, much easier shot and a lot less likely to go wrong!

[kent]

Ackerly,

Firstly a running shot at 500 yds is darn near impossible, the lead required is massively larger than at 100 yds, its also a darn site harder to judge angles and the trajectory and wind dope also changes quickly the further it gets - basically it amounts to prayer shooting in desparation. 100 yds runners by comarisom are far less difficult than us Brits seem to believe.

Secondly, the further away the taget the longer the bullet takes to get there so the potential for movement distance in your target is much greater. The fact that you say they are more likely to move when your in close means your bumping them not stalking them, missing the close ones through taking "quick shots" also backs this up

 

Thirdly, i also own a 7mm stalking rifle it shoots 140 grn Gamekings which have a lower BC than the 155 scenar in .308 for which i gave you the 1000 yds dope so you could expect a greater allowance with you 7mm. I fully appriciate 7mm is generally a higher bc per bullet, but like i say no way could you just wind in the dope at these ranges for a first round hit anyway it just doesn't work like that.

An interesting point here aside is although the scenar is a target bullet are you even aware that the gameking and other deer intended hunting bullets will generally fail to expand on impact outside of its intended velocity range. At 500 yds you are definatly gonna be into that sort of territory with most general deer bullets unless they are launched at warp speed from the likes of a 7mm BOO BOO or the likes ( in which case they might actually break up in flight anyway)- again chance of wounding is greater as even if your chosen bullets still manage to expand it will do so a lot less and certainly will be unpredictable on contact with various parts of the anatomony

 

Forth, oh this is a good one snow up to your waist so you have to shoot at extreame range! not only is this sort of thing foolhardy in the extreame on safety grounds- how the heck do you recover what you just shot? a shovel and a helicopter with winch i supose Don't worry about the gralloch and bleed the thing will be frozen solid when you get to it anyway

[Vipa]

Ackerly,

 

 

Thirdly, i also own a 7mm stalking rifle it shoots 140 grn Gamekings which have a lower BC than the 155 scenar in .308 for which i gave you the 1000 yds dope so you could expect a greater allowance with you 7mm. I fully appriciate 7mm is generally a higher bc per bullet, but like i say no way could you just wind in the dope at these ranges for a first round hit anyway it just doesn't work like that.

 

We are getting WAAAAAAY off the subject now and this bit would be better suited to Precisionrifle.co.uk or snipershide.com but..... I have to challenge you on this part Kent... Whilst a cold bore hit at 1000yds is difficult, requires great skill and lots of practice and even then isn't guaranteed.... it is, with intimate knowledge of your equipment and lots of aforementioned practice perfectly possible 9 times out of 10 if you have your dope right even with a humble .308.... as long as you can keep it supersonic.. that can be done without resorting to hot loads...

[Ackley]

Ackerly,

Firstly a running shot at 500 yds is darn near impossible, the lead required is massively larger than at 100 yds, its also a darn site harder to judge angles and the trajectory and wind dope also changes quickly the further it gets - basically it amounts to prayer shooting in desparation. 100 yds runners by comarisom are far less difficult than us Brits seem to believe.

Secondly, the further away the taget the longer the bullet takes to get there so the potential for movement distance in your target is much greater. The fact that you say they are more likely to move when your in close means your bumping them not stalking them, missing the close ones through taking "quick shots" also backs this up

well if you use an accurate rifle there isnt any need for a follow up shot on a personal note Ive never needed one,100 yard or 500 yard no one can guarntee a hit on running deer,its more luck than judgement,or are you going to try and tell me different,so again theres no difference in distance

 

Thirdly, i also own a 7mm stalking rifle it shoots 140 grn Gamekings which have a lower BC than the 155 scenar in .308 for which i gave you the 1000 yds dope so you could expect a greater allowance with you 7mm. I fully appriciate 7mm is generally a higher bc per bullet, but like i say no way could you just wind in the dope at these ranges for a first round hit anyway it just doesn't work like that.

An interesting point here aside is although the scenar is a target bullet are you even aware that the gameking and other deer intended hunting bullets will generally fail to expand on impact outside of its intended velocity range. At 500 yds you are definatly gonna be into that sort of territory with most general deer bullets unless they are launched at warp speed from the likes of a 7mm BOO BOO or the likes ( in which case they might actually break up in flight anyway)- again chance of wounding is greater as even if your chosen bullets still manage to expand it will do so a lot less and certainly will be unpredictable on contact with various parts of the anatomony

you should choose a decent bullet then which works well at all ranges and with a good BC do your homework on suitable bullets mate are you know saying a 500 shot when taken in the correct condition cant be done,as if you are you really need to get out more or learn how to shoot

 

Forth, oh this is a good one snow up to your waist so you have to shoot at extreame range! not only is this sort of thing foolhardy in the extreame on safety grounds- how the heck do you recover what you just shot? a shovel and a helicopter with winch i supose Don't worry about the gralloch and bleed the thing will be frozen solid when you get to it anyway

you obviously have never heard of a toyota hi lux or a tractor,not dangerous at all when you know what your doing

Oh by the way you say you shoot a 7mm I hope its not a 7mm 08 your trying to compare lol

Edited April 11, 2011 by Ackley

[scolopax]

Off a bipod I generally get beer mat sized groups at 100m, I do not use a bipod for stalking, just sticks, I shoot my fair share of deer. Most of the deer I shoot are in the 40 - 80m range, max 150 m. I've talked to other stalkers about my poor grouping, they have all said, 'do I kill deer, yes, whats the problem then ? Don't get hung up about it'.

[kent]

We are getting WAAAAAAY off the subject now and this bit would be better suited to Precisionrifle.co.uk or snipershide.com but..... I have to challenge you on this part Kent... Whilst a cold bore hit at 1000yds is difficult, requires great skill and lots of practice and even then isn't guaranteed.... it is, with intimate knowledge of your equipment and lots of aforementioned practice perfectly possible 9 times out of 10 if you have your dope right even with a humble .308.... as long as you can keep it supersonic.. that can be done without resorting to hot loads...

 

Oh i am well aware it CAN be done, however there is only a small chance that the very best can make the shot into a 4" kill zone only the extreamly foolhardary would say "yeah i can garantee that", i doubt a clean 5 shot group from cold no sighter has ever been done into such a target (remember sub 1/2 moa dope estimate is required without talking the other variables). Nobody and i do mean nobody can tell you such a thing is a sure thing even in the best of conditions on level ground. Yes it is getting a little way off thread now, as it seems Ackerly cannot seem to understand my replies and continues to quote yet mis quote me little point in contiuing realy

[Vipa]

Oh i am well aware it CAN be done, however there is only a small chance that the very best can make the shot into a 4" kill zone only the extreamly foolhardary would say "yeah i can garantee that", i doubt a clean 5 shot group from cold no sighter has ever been done into such a target (remember sub 1/2 moa dope estimate is required without talking the other variables). Nobody and i do mean nobody can tell you such a thing is a sure thing even in the best of conditions on level ground. Yes it is getting a little way off thread now, as it seems Ackerly cannot seem to understand my replies and continues to quote yet mis quote me little point in contiuing realy

 

 

Wasn't refering to a 4" kill zone... I was refering to a human torso sized target... hitting that can be done cold 9/10 times as long as the shooter can read the conditions and come up with the right dope (and incidentally have the ability!)... where the bullet lands on that target is largely irrelevent for the purpose as the point is a hit anywhere will incapacitate. As the current UK record benchrest group at 1000yds is something like 3 1/2" I would say it was almost impossible to GUARANTEE a shot to a 4" kill zone at that distance.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Vipa

[Catweazle]

it seems Ackerly cannot seem to understand my replies and continues to quote yet mis quote me little point in contiuing realy

 

You both do it, it's like reading an Aspergers divorce settlement

[gixer1]

As the current UK record benchrest group at 1000yds is something like 3 1/2" I would say it was almost impossible to GUARANTEE a shot to a 4" kill zone at that distance.

 

 

And this is why i say SOME people are talking drivel on here..... I know some great shots and i'm sure a lot of people on here are very good, but not good enough for some of the figures quoted, anyone can take a target pic that the "once shot" and use it as an example, but doing something once does not mean it can be consistently done!

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[al4x]

You both do it, it's like reading an Aspergers divorce settlement

 

 

Best post on here so far

[Ackley]

And this is why i say SOME people are talking drivel on here..... I know some great shots and i'm sure a lot of people on here are very good, but not good enough for some of the figures quoted, anyone can take a target pic that the "once shot" and use it as an example, but doing something once does not mean it can be consistently done!

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

 

talk is one thing mate doing it is another,Iam fortunate enough to be able to do both,and if your saying a 500 shot is luck it isnt mate,its calculated and please dont suggest the photo I posted was a fluke as if you read my ppost correctly there was 2 groups shot back to back,so very consistant wouldnt you say

and again I did the 600 V buls (not the 10 ring) at Bisley in strong winds for about 8 or 9 shots cold rifle staright out of the bag,only the first shot didnt hit the V it was in the 10 ring but again well within "the kill zone then I got board,Oh and witnessed by about 10 people,so is this also a fluke.I dont think so

you shpuld surf the net a little mate there are a few cracking long range shooting sites where you can get a litle education on what can be done,you never know you may one day be able to get your head out of the sand and be able to do what other cannot

Edited April 12, 2011 by Ackley

[gixer1]

talk is one thing mate doing it is another,Iam fortunate enough to be able to do both,and if your saying a 500 shot is luck it isnt mate,its calculated and please dont suggest the photo I posted was a fluke as if you read my ppost correctly there was 2 groups shot back to back,so very consistant wouldnt you say

and again I did the 600 V buls (not the 10 ring) at Bisley in strong winds for about 8 or 9 shots cold rifle staright out of the bag,only the first shot didnt hit the V it was in the 10 ring but again well within "the kill zone then I got board,Oh and witnessed by about 10 people,so is this also a fluke.I dont think so

you shpuld surf the net a little mate there are a few cracking long range shooting sites where you can get a litle education on what can be done,you never know you may one day be able to get your head out of the sand and be able to do what other cannot

 

 

Please continue...i am somewhat of a bullshi**er myself...but every now and then i like to hear a real expert....

[Ackley]

Please continue...i am somewhat of a bullshi**er myself...but every now and then i like to hear a real expert....

I wouldnt insult you by calling you silly names mate as I wouldnt lower my self

well my mate,you think what ever you like,obvioulsy your an old dog that cant be learnt new tricks,or is it just wont accept what is acheiveable,anyway how the reloading going I read your trying your hand at the dark art,or are you still shooting factory fodder into very poor groups,no wonder you cant get passed 150 yards

if you need advice on reloading let me know,I do know just a little bit about it as i reload and help develop accrrate loads so people can actually hit small targets at long ranges