HDAV Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 Taking some friends out for a session on the clays Saturday, all have shot at least once before, some a few times, local ground normally sell Comp X 21g which are out of stock.... no delivery before the weekend. No where locally stocks Comp X 21g i have found so have a choice of express 21g or Eley firsts 21g locally. Whats the lowest recoil? (felt of these 2 anything else to consider looking for low cost and low recoil so subs are out! Hull Chevron are supposed to be very light recoil but not seen them on sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 All things being equal - which they rarely are I'd go for Express then Eley .. or whichever comes in 8s. Again same order in 24gr if you have to ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 chevrons are just low speed. subsonic, the comp x is 1400fps. in reality if you want the lightest cartridge ever would be a subsonic 21gram load. (or a slow load) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 All things being equal - which they rarely are I'd go for Express then Eley .. or whichever comes in 8s.Again same order in 24gr if you have to ... Sound advice there , I can`t figure out why the 21g manufacturers have elected to stick to 7.5`s :look: . When you drop the shot load by 25%, the least you could do is make up some of the loss with smaller shot. I shoot 8`s almost exclusively and believe me they`ll break clays at some silly distances. By the way if these people have shot before and you`re not using a Baikal , then why are you so petrified of the recoil from 1oz? None of us started with 21g , and we`re still here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 try this lot .. http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/162934-moving-from-28-to-21gm-clay-carts/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 If you are ever in the area of the west midlands sgooting ground at Hodnet normaly has hull comp X 21G in stock, at the moment they have plastic wads in. Worth giving them a ring first to check stock levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medic1281 Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 Got loads of fibre wads at Morgans of oswestry, bought 1000 yesterday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COACH Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 If I can`t get hold of 21g Comp X, I use the Express 21g HV in the red and yellow boxes. They just kick a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) I can lend you a few if you're passing...mind you I have moved house since I saw you... EDIT: just looked and I haven't actually got many 21s but have loads of 28s, they do feel pretty much the same. Edited April 27, 2011 by Thunderbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 There seems to be quite a few people using 21g loads now. I'm genuinely interested as to why? Is it a price thing, or recoil problems, or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted April 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) chevrons are just low speed. subsonic, the comp x is 1400fps. in reality if you want the lightest cartridge ever would be a subsonic 21gram load. (or a slow load) Express dont seem to list any specs for the 21g loads online interestingly the comp X 21g are faster on paper than the 28g (does this mean they are using the same powder load in both and why the felt recoil is so similar?) I have shot both 21g Eley First Lite and Express 21g just cant remeber if either was softer than the other last 21g i shot were comp X. Which are a PITA to get round here. By the way if these people have shot before and you`re not using a Baikal , then why are you so petrified of the recoil from 1oz? None of us started with 21g , and we`re still here. 3 ladies, of which 2 have only fired 20g with subsonics, 1 who is happy with 21g loads through a lightweight 12, of the guys they would probably handle 28g loads but for simplicity (and cost) i want to buy one 1 slab of carts for them all to use and at £3.50 a box the express are looking favourite. Not travelling far this week so trying to get them locally where Eley and Express are in stock (other 2 shops i could try both close wednesday) and another only seems to stock gamebore who dont do a 21g load..... Comp X 28 would be OK just cost more, do the express only come in 7.5? or in 8/9? Edited April 27, 2011 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian E Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 If you have access to Little Devils there very low recoil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 HDAV ... there's 2 parts to recoil ... Newtons formula and the mutt on the butt 's perception. Newton can tell you that cartridge A gives more recoil than B and he's right: but if you say B kicks more then you're right too. Less lead and less speed = lower Newtons recoil, but which you like best is personnal preference. Poontang asks why the 21g preference? For me its about minimising recoil and muzzle blast ... you ever been next to someone using ported barrels aaagh? I regularly put 21g thro a 28 bore, same load, same speed,similar pattern, but seems oh so quiet and feels oh so soft too. Newton say 'same recoil': I say 'um 22 at skeet not bad - 'nother round?' Eley also sound noisy to me, but cheap comes into it too. Try the recoil article at http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/articlearchive.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) There seems to be quite a few people using 21g loads now. I'm genuinely interested as to why? For me initially it was because I was using a very light gun coupled with a bad shoulder, so recoil first, secondly they are quite cheap, and lastly the sporting layouts I currently (though that may change with time) shoot don't have targets that can't be well broken with Hull 21s / 28s. Having said that I am currently thinking about whether to 'upgrade' if that's the right word. I feel there are persuasive arguments on both sides so I wish to experiment. What fibre wad carts would you recommend? Edited April 27, 2011 by Thunderbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 There seems to be quite a few people using 21g loads now. I'm genuinely interested as to why? Is it a price thing, or recoil problems, or something else? Several reasons I have picked up on. 1 The price, in one of this months mags they are say the price of cartridgees is due to go up again soon. 2. Low recoil effect, ideal for beginers and others who may have injured shoulders. 3. They spalter clays as good as 28G 4. Enable one to pick up the second clay easier as one does not have as much recoil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 What fibre wad carts would you recommend? I wouldn't! I'll only use fibre if I absolutely have to. I'm sure there's not a lot of difference between fibre and plastic but to my mind plastic wads are better. And seeing as 90% of shooting is supposedly in the mind I'm happier with plastic for now. To put it simply, I suppose I'm more confident chucking 28g of lead at a clay in a plastic wad, than 21g with a fibre wad. I need every little advantage I can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) Clay Shooting magazine did a test of four fibre loads and four plastic 21gm loads giving various results at the Proof House. The Proof House also measures for momentum which gives an indication of likely recoil energy produced by the cartridge. The figures are given in Newton seconds (Ns) which will mean little in practical terms, but the figures do provide a usful figure for comparison between cartridge types. Gamebore White Gold fibre 7.82Ns 554bar Eley First Lite fibre 8.46Ns 483bar Eley First Lite plastic 8.13Ns 448bar Lyavale Express H/V plastic 7.54Ns 494bar Lyavale Express H/V fibre 7.9Ns 629bar Hull Comp X fibre 7.5Ns 437bar Hull Comp X plastic 7.68Ns 344bar All are loaded with 71/2 shot. I personally find Hull fibre recoils the least, but we are all differerent. Edited April 27, 2011 by BlaserF3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted April 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 So on paper the HV plastic are closest to the comp X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 I wouldn't! I'll only use fibre if I absolutely have to. I'm sure there's not a lot of difference between fibre and plastic but to my mind plastic wads are better. And seeing as 90% of shooting is supposedly in the mind I'm happier with plastic for now. To put it simply, I suppose I'm more confident chucking 28g of lead at a clay in a plastic wad, than 21g with a fibre wad. I need every little advantage I can get. Yes I know what you mean, trouble is I tend to shoot mostly at grounds where fibre is the only option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Well picked up a slab of Express 21g fibre :blink: Didnt relaise till i got home..... I was after plastic..... still only £35 but will it be detrimental? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 (edited) I just tried some hull comp x 21g plastic wad against what I normally use which is hull comp x fibre 21G fibre, the only difference I noticed is using fibre you can get confetti comming off the wad. Edited April 28, 2011 by BerettaSV10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 still only £35 but will it be detrimental? Hopefully only to the clays... I'm sure your guests will enjoy terminating them with extreme prejudice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Well picked up a slab of Express 21g fibre :blink: Didnt relaise till i got home..... I was after plastic..... still only £35 but will it be detrimental? Fibre shells don`t seem to suit 3" chambers like many modern competition guns but for close combat in normal guns I doubt you`d worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted April 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Hmmm 2.5" shells and probably all 3" guns...... Do'h Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted April 29, 2011 Report Share Posted April 29, 2011 Hmmm 2.5" shells and probably all 3" guns...... Do'h Hmm .. looking back at BlaserFs post it seems all the fibre generated higher pressure that their plas-kin. I guess both types made a good enough seal in the bore? And I doubt the Proof House used different chambered test equipment given the CIP rules on cartridges. ?? Shoot them and see for yourself ... then let us know what they did. Pity Ian Charltons retired his proof barrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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