kent Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I don't have gundogs so I can't comment on those, but I have two dobermans. They wouldn't respond to a smack as they don't seem to feel pain or fear, so when I needed to show them who's boss I grabbed them by the scruff or the collar and pinned them to the ground until they go "soft" ( relax, submit ). As soon as they submit I let them up and praise them, it's worked well for me, they're good as gold. I don't see why this wouldn't work for other breeds. problem is when you get one that won't go down, its like a real hard judo match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 problem is when you get one that won't go down, its like a real hard judo match Hasn't happened so far, my method is to get four fingers under the collar from the back of the dog, lift arm vertical straighten arm and push straight to the floor. No dog is going to stand up to that and the twist in the collar stops his teeth reaching your arm. This sounds more brutal than it is, the dog isn't hurt, just shown that you are stronger than he is. He will go soft when he realises you are the boss, that's when you let him go and praise him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 Hasn't happened so far, my method is to get four fingers under the collar from the back of the dog, lift arm vertical straighten arm and push straight to the floor. No dog is going to stand up to that and the twist in the collar stops his teeth reaching your arm. This sounds more brutal than it is, the dog isn't hurt, just shown that you are stronger than he is. He will go soft when he realises you are the boss, that's when you let him go and praise him. Three falls or a submision to win some is just gonna be harder than others, especially if you need to do it on more than one occasion, i dunno if you can lift a big mastive or similar like that and i am too chicken to try in a hurry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 No, but as Kent has said, it is down to the individual dog. I tried to pick a puppy that was more submissive, and it's paid off. Just a look can tell him sometimes, other times he needs a word or a nudge in the right direction. My parents' dog is a different story and you have to be very confident and authoritative. Not brutal though, and the most I've done is rolled him over gently. Regarding the OP, I doubt a dog that is cowering infront of its owner is in a good state of mind. A working dog should be happy and confident in what it is doing, but recognise who is in charge. The owner should act as commander in chief, but not oppressor. Often people buy working dogs but cannot cope with their energy if they are not exercised enough, so become more frustrated and angry at the dog's lack of discipline. Horses for courses really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Even though i've wanted to punch her square between the eyes on many occasion , my GSP paints the most pathetic, sad sight if you so much as threaten her so I couldn't i'm starting to wonder if she knows this now. I've had three springers and they've all been great.....i've only ever grabbed the young one by the scruff a couple of times and she's a fantastic little, (for me), gun dog. My old dad used to say a dog is far more fearful of your voice than your hand if being scorned So, No...never smacked any of 'em. I think if you gain thier respect from the off there's no need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bi9johnny Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 have read this with some interest and humour....i have trained many dogs mainly springers and labs but once in a while others and have been in several trail clubs.....i have seen on one occassion a trail judge kicking the proverbial out of a champion lab which was a contributing factor to me stopping....i have always practiced calm repetative training , if it's going bad give up put dog away get another out or give them a rest and try again later....the odd scruff of the neck and shake is max i think...one post says if it takes the urine hell yes...this i realy don't see as i never believe that a dog has the ability to think " hey i will not do this and it will wind him up" i truely think the dog's mind is set on do it and get the prize if that prize be food play or just the pleasure to please...just my opinion and experience regards john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 have read this with some interest and humour....i have trained many dogs mainly springers and labs but once in a while others and have been in several trail clubs.....i have seen on one occassion a trail judge kicking the proverbial out of a champion lab which was a contributing factor to me stopping....i have always practiced calm repetative training , if it's going bad give up put dog away get another out or give them a rest and try again later....the odd scruff of the neck and shake is max i think...one post says if it takes the urine hell yes...this i realy don't see as i never believe that a dog has the ability to think " hey i will not do this and it will wind him up" i truely think the dog's mind is set on do it and get the prize if that prize be food play or just the pleasure to please...just my opinion and experience regards john What you are saying then is that a dog cannot reason? I disagree. A dog can work out a pattern of behaviour that it believes or hopes will result in achieving what it has set out to achieve. How many times does the perfect dog not perform on a trials field? It's not coincidence in my opinion. In my opinion the dog knows that an audience guarantees that it will not be disciplined for doing something it does not want to do. In the same way my ESS will sneak upstairs and empty the cat's food dish the second she is left alone, even when one of us momentarily pops out into the garden to hang washing or collect something from the garage. I have a good friend who trained horses to Olympic levels. He says the same about horses. They will react differently in certain circumstances and invariably show you up in a competition if they don't actually like what they are being made to do. The crux is that a dog that enjoys its work will rarely deliberately misbehave. A dog that is made to work will take the oppertunity to misbehave when it thnks it can get away with it. We call it 'taking the pi$$' The dog is just exploiting an oppertunity. Just like horses and children do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 my local keeper has a spaniel last year whenever a hare came near that used to look at him and decide if having a chase was worth it. My GWP will do the same at times its a decision between what they want to do and what you want them to do, they very much know right from wrong once they have had a certain amount of training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Yes I have a few times. Never for making mistakes in training or for taking the **** out of me though. Once because I came out of the kitchen and caught her chewing the beading around the edge of the wooden floor. When I managed to creep up on her after a spate of her putting her paws on the kitchen surface looking for food. Caught her in the act, made it count. And finally after she had nipped me 3 times while I was sat on the floor once. The first time I shouted NO, the second time I swiped her across the nose and shouted NO, the third time I cracked her with the back of my hand. She ran to her bed in the kitchen, laid in it facing the wall and didn't come out for about 7 hours. She hasn't done it since. I love my pooch, I don't want to cause her pain but equally I don't want her choking on a piece of wood she's chewed while I'm out or hooking a hot pan/ sharp knife or whatever off the kitchen surface in the hunt for food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
covlocks Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) I used to breed and train Rotties. They are powerful and headstrong dogs, that MUST do as they are told, shouting, scolding etc does nothing for them whatsoever. You have to get their attention and bring them under control immediately they step out of line, otherwise with todays DDA, you can condemn them to death. I have tried the Roger Mugford collars that squirt compressed air up their noses, electric collars (which I hate with a passion, and the dog just shrugs them off anyway) - until I found that a good rap got the attention I needed. It wasn't over the top, cruel or brutal, just an attention getter that made the dog realise he had to listen and tune into my voice perminently. Worked for me - and the dogs, who knew when they had crossed the line..... Edited May 10, 2011 by covlocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 until I found that a good rap got the attention I needed. In west Philadelphia born and raised On the playground where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school When a couple of guys, they were up to no good Started making trouble in my neighbourhood I got in one little fight and my mom got scared And said "You're moving with your auntie and uncle in Bel-air" That kind of good rap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 No J@mes... that's C rap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Nice one bi9johnny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billde Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Reading some of peoples thinking on dogs, Dogs they can become very responsive, (responsability?) they will sit, they will fetch, they do all kinds of tricks. But the pecking order comes down to the owner, to show the dog who is the boss. For one simple reason is a dog CANNOT take responsability. people CANNOT teach their kids to take resposability. They get lulled into a false sense of security they think the Merkats on TV are real responsive things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvemanta Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 My previous 3 dogs have been big bolshy animals that need scruffing and pinning down to show who was boss. 2 Gsd and 1 malamute timberwolf x.All three very strong willed but fantastic animals. Current dog is a lovely little black lab bitch she is so eager to please but still naughty My (training) has taught me what to do or so I thought. But she started to cower and take a submissive posture with me . It nearly broke my heart that I hadnt read this little girl quickly enough and had actually made her scared of me. Changed my method to positive reinforcement only ignore bad behavior and seems to be working. Just goes to show all dogs are different. I can honestly say the other 3 were never scared of me they just need to be kept in line very physically and they were happy with that I would go as far as saying they needed it to feel happy. This one is completely different I now have to retrain myself lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danimal Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 different dogs different rules imo u need to adjust your training to suit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danimal Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 and there is a marked difference from a slap round the chops to kicking the **** out of a dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie-fox Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 never ever would i hit my dog (fox terrier) he is part of the family and a much loved friend....so never would i strike him.. shouted is another matter tho,he is a terrier after all !!! Rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGadger Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 Our old country vet once told my father-in-law that his golden retriever had a bit of a nasty streak in him. He'll not take it from any dog, he said, and you need to find an excuse every 6 months or so to give him a good hiding to remind him who's boss, or he'll take over. He was dead right. We got a pick out of the litter sired by this dog, and he was a big cracker, he could quarter, jump gates, point and retrieve,but was very willful. He used to beat up german shepherds for fun. He never started a fight, but finished a few.... He also had to be disciplined fairly regularly. In his case, not physically, other than a scruff-shake now and again and some effective growling when he got a bit big for his boots. Our current cocker bitch is _very_ bold, not frightened of anything, but sensitive. At 9 months a low "No" or disapproving tone is all it needs to get mournful sideways glances.. My problem with her is that she is totally focussed on scenting and questing; retrieving seems not to be in her makeup. Any ideas, suggestions?? Horses for courses.... FG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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