Gimlet Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 My Weihrauch HW60J .17hmr has burned out its SAK mod. At least, I think it has. The baffles are eaten away, ragged and flared in the direction of bullet travel. Looking through the bore of the mod it is no longer round, and crucially it is certainly reducing accuracy. There is a definate improvement if I swap with the SAK from my .22lr. I understand the optimum barrel length for clean burning on a .17hmr is 20 inches. I'm wondering whether the 14" barrel of the HW is accelerating mod wear with extra heat and unburnt gases. I'm not concerned about the drop in energy and velocity from the shorter barrel because those who know better than I say this is really only apparent at the muzzle. At typical 100yd plus shooting ranges the difference is negligable. But it would be nice not to have to buy a new moderator every 1000 rounds. Thats at least 2 mods a year for me. Should I trade the rifle in for one with a 20" barrel- another Wiehrauch if they do a 20" or an Anchutz- or buy a steel moderator? And if the latter, which one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verminator 66 Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 Hmmmmmmmmm might have a point here as my mod was not to bad till I had the barrel chopped and when cleaning after 1st baffle was well burnt out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 My 16" HMR burnt out a SAC in under 500rnds. I changed it to a DM80, and it is still going strong after 6000rnds. The shorter barrel must be a factor, as a shooting buddy of mine has been using the same SAC on a 20" HMR since I met him, and whilst it is worn, it is still in reasonable condition after a few thousand rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 The SAK was never meant for use on .17HMR and after having the same problem as you I bought a DM80 which Dave modified to suit my Anschutz 14" barrel as there was not enough barrel overhanging the stock for the overbarrel DM80 to hang over - if you get what I mean. The standard DM80 fits a 16" barrel "out of the box". When you look at a SAK the internal baffles come to a quite sharp and thin edge and these get chewed up by the blast of HMR hot gases (no problem with .22 subs) but the DM80 is much more solid and although much more expensive is worth every penny. Build quality is superb and because it has a .17 hole rather than .22 it is much quieter as well. To judge how much quieter, try firing a .17 hmr into a sand bank or soft soil a couple of yards away. That way you can hear the suppressed muzzle blast without being overcome by the supersonic crack which will not be developed at that short range. SAK is very good for .22 subs DM80 with .17 bore is excellent for HMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 The SAK is suggested by Jackson Rifles to last 10,000 rounds on a HMR. There are obviously other factors that come into play in this figure. The fact is Jackson Rifles offer a sort of lifetime guarantee on the SAK, thay will replace it for a new one whatever its age/condition for 60% of cost I believe...talk to them for further info/advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 My 16" HMR burnt out a SAC in under 500rnds. I changed it to a DM80, and it is still going strong after 6000rnds. The shorter barrel must be a factor, as a shooting buddy of mine has been using the same SAC on a 20" HMR since I met him, and whilst it is worn, it is still in reasonable condition after a few thousand rounds. Is the rimfire DM80 an over-barrel design? I believe the centrefire ones are, in which case I don't think it will fit the HW. There is very little barrel beyond the fore-end. Have you shot your mates 20"hmr? If so how does the handling compare with your 16? If theres no difference- outside of a vehicle- I'm thinking I might trade in for a 20". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 Ah. You've just answered my question Dadioles. How much more does it cost to modify a DM80 to fit a 14 incher? I think they're £250 to start with aren't they? Would you change your 14" Anny for a longer barrel? Can't help thinking that could be the way to go, but I could just be talking myself into spending more money for no good reason. I'm quite good at doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Elvis Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 My 21" amrican got through 3 scirroccos before i bought a dm80!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Having a shorter barrel does result in a higher degree of unburned, or should i say burning gasses into the chambers of the Sak, being only alli it does erode allot more compared to other mods,I checked mine some years ago after only putting around 1000 through and noticed erosion around the baffles. I ended up changing it for a ASE, after having it on the rifle for nearly 5 years there is no sign of erosion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 (edited) Ah. You've just answered my question Dadioles. How much more does it cost to modify a DM80 to fit a 14 incher? I think they're £250 to start with aren't they? Would you change your 14" Anny for a longer barrel? Can't help thinking that could be the way to go, but I could just be talking myself into spending more money for no good reason. I'm quite good at doing that. Hello Gimlet I have pm'd you with some info, have a chat to Dave of DM80 fame, he will look after you. They are not as expensive as you suggest! As far as the warranty on SAK is concerned. Who can be bothered to go to the trouble of taking up the warranty offer based on paying 60% of the new price plus postage and a telephone call?. From Jacksons point of view the warranty is good publicity and they are still making a profit at that price level. The SAK is simply not made for the hmr, if it was, it would have a .17 hole and not a .22 hole! Jacksons also advise against cleaning the SAK (on health and safety grounds). I dismantle and clean all my mods regularly - and they need it. SAK is a fine choice for .22 (but then so is almost any cheap moderator). Oh... forgot to mention - Annie with 14" barrel is perfect. My advice to users of .22 and .17 rimfire is to get the shortest original factory length barrel possible. That seems to be (typically) 14" Anschutz and 16" CZ. Edited May 29, 2011 by dadioles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 The 20" HMR barrel gives you about an extra 100ftlbs, which amounts to very little out to HMR ranges, and does not seem to affect the accuracy, so go with a short barrel. As already said Dave is a top bloke, his mods are cheaper than most other branded mods, and should you have a problem, Dave provides an excellent back up service. With 6000 rounds through it and still going strong it is well worth the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted May 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 The 20" HMR barrel gives you about an extra 100ftlbs, which amounts to very little out to HMR ranges, and does not seem to affect the accuracy, so go with a short barrel. As already said Dave is a top bloke, his mods are cheaper than most other branded mods, and should you have a problem, Dave provides an excellent back up service. With 6000 rounds through it and still going strong it is well worth the money. I take it you mean 100fps? If so, then clearly at 100+ yds there's no meaningful advantage to a 20"er. Good to have another vote in favour of the short barrel. I do like it, its a fantastically usable little rifle, but I confess I did have a niggling doubt that I might be missing out on a smidge of capability. I'll be sticking with the 14" and seeing what Dave advises next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) This can't be right when we consider all those 'buy a sak mod' recomendations whenever we get the 'which mod threads' surely I use an ASE Utra for my 15" HMR barrel, my SAK lasted less than a year but when we see most members advising newbies to get a SAK guess what the trusting poor suckers will buy? Edited May 30, 2011 by Dave-G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 This can't be right when we consider all those 'buy a sak mod' recomendations whenever we get the 'which mod threads' surely I use an ASE Utra for my 15" HMR barrel, my SAK lasted less than a year but when we see most members advising newbies to get a SAK guess what the trusting poor suckers will buy? This is what happens you see, people ask for advice, they then listen to somebody who thinks they knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) This can't be right when we consider all those 'buy a sak mod' recomendations whenever we get the 'which mod threads' surely I use an ASE Utra for my 15" HMR barrel, my SAK lasted less than a year but when we see most members advising newbies to get a SAK guess what the trusting poor suckers will buy? It isn't right, the SAK works fine on the HMR and the WMR, it is also the cheapest for many and there are only a relatively few people who have a short HMR and use them a lot. I have destroyed a Sirocco on my HMR which has a 22.5" barrel, but my WMR with a 19" barrel and a SAK is still fine. I am not suggesting the SAK is the "Best" mod on a HMR(whatever that may mean), simply that it will offer the best package unless you want a very short HMR and intend to fire it a lot. Jacksons quote 10,000 rounds for a SAK on a HMR, we can all accept that is probably generous, and perhaps more so if you do have a very short barrel, nevertheless, there are an awful lot of people for which the SAK would last a lifetime. How much is a ASE Utra compared to a SAK, and however much of a gimmick it may sound, Jacksons will replace the SAK for 60% if you destroy it! When my latest Sirocco dies, odds are it will be a SAK on the HMR! ATB! This is interesting,seeing as it rates the Sirocco which, from experience I most certainly don't! http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/rifles/381445/17HMR_calibre_sound_moderators_review_.html Edited May 30, 2011 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 I take it you mean 100fps? You are indeed correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted May 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 As ever opinion is divided! Dekers you have a good point about light usage and I may take up Jacksons replacement deal if time and postage make it worth doing. I still use a SAK on the .22lr and can't fault it, but having wrecked one SAK on the hmr I'm having to use the only one I've got left for both rifles so a spare would be no bad thing. But I reckon my 14" barrel with 2500 rounds through it this year and probably more next means a dedicated .17hmr higher spec mod and the DM80 is ahead in the polls. Incidently my rifle's favourite ammo are Winchester Supremes. Most people with HW60s say theirs like Remingtons but mine won't look at them. Hornady are better but throw out a lot more fliers. But I don't suppose ammo brand effects mod wear, they're probably all made in the same factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 do sako make a mod in .17 or just .22? there .22 mods are brilliant the best i've owned or heard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Same as i use ASE utra got this on my annie short barrel HMR have literally put 1000's of rounds through it in the last 6 of 7 years and not a bit of bother. People don't buy these they go for the SAK because it is only half the price.. Old saying buy cheap buy twice comes to mind... :good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 i read the thread title and presumed you were talking about me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 As ever opinion is divided! Dekers you have a good point about light usage and I may take up Jacksons replacement deal if time and postage make it worth doing. I still use a SAK on the .22lr and can't fault it, but having wrecked one SAK on the hmr I'm having to use the only one I've got left for both rifles so a spare would be no bad thing. But I reckon my 14" barrel with 2500 rounds through it this year and probably more next means a dedicated .17hmr higher spec mod and the DM80 is ahead in the polls. Incidently my rifle's favourite ammo are Winchester Supremes. Most people with HW60s say theirs like Remingtons but mine won't look at them. Hornady are better but throw out a lot more fliers. But I don't suppose ammo brand effects mod wear, they're probably all made in the same factory. I have talked to and considered the Third Eye Tactical, over barrel 17 dedicated mod, when I last spoke to them it was in the £70 area. They seem open, reasonable and sensible and suggest it is worth a try on the 17 (was it Craig I spoke to, can't remember now). Anyway, I have NEVER found a mod I am happy with on the 17, and I have had/used a LOT, anyone give an unbiased FIRST HAND report on this mod? I keep thinking about buying one but I have spent too much on 17 mods already and only ever been disappointed! I have experience of use of the DM80 on my rifle (not owned one, just trialled it), I accept it had the edge in sound moderation (JUST) on everything else I have tried, BUT, it was the BIGGEST and HEAVIEST as well, so not ideal as far as I'm concerned! 2500, 17HMR a year is decent use for sure, and my opinion would be that is at the high end usage, I really believe there are many that hardly make a box or two a year. Anyway, for many/most people I still suggest the SAK is as good or better than many other mods! BUT, I am listening to anyone who can tell me there really is a decent 17 mod out there! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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