bring back pistols ?

[phaedra1106]

I think he means the Barbican Armoury at Brancepeth, Co.Durham, they def. do section 7. http://www.barbicanarmoury.org.uk/index.html

 

We applied for membership and were told no problem but never heard from them again so joined 2 other clubs instead! :(

[RC45]

I see what you mean vince,wearing cammo on the range gives the wrong impression........throwing something into the mixing bowl of this highly lengthy topic,I want to put forward the issue of section 7 pistols, is everyone aware of the growing popularity of these pistols? And is everyone aware that bisley is not the only place you can shoot them. I hear the barbican armoury does them (confirmation needed) and also the tunnel in bridport is gonna or is doing them,I think there's a few places also that are also shooting them and storing them, so with this in mind and the rapidly growing lbp and lbr numbers,are we seeing a re-emergence of pistol shooting already? And further to this,if pistols are being stored at locations around the country,then why can't they store ordinary pistols also?

I believe section 7 is available at Bedford and our club in Northants is looking into it. I have seen some Russian stuff available on section 7 for around £600. I know some of the guys at Kingsbury have section 7, I am sure their club is in Wolverhampton.

 

If our club gets section 7 approval, I will let you know.

 

Phil

[Vince Green]

The point I was making a couple of pages back was not that they were dangerous or anything of the sort, they were just ****** pure and simple. They never took the sport that seriously but cherrypicked certain disciplines and by their interest put a lot of money into them causing them to grow.

 

I have a lot of respect for a person who works hard to better his scores, practices his breathing and his trigger technique and improves his shooting year on year. I have no respect for someone who just wants to blaze away, never checks his score and walks away leaving his target still hanging on the frame for somebody else to clear up.

[Vipa]

Well funny, and somehow not funny at all.

 

QED

 

This summarises everything I have struggling to "get at".

 

Shooters seem to have this complete inability to properly look at themselves through the eyes of everyone else. We may consider ourselves the most law obiding but failing to grasp that looking like Michael Ryan post Hungerford was probably "a bad thing"..... The public have longer memories for these large scale madacres carried out by "legitimate" FAC holders.

 

I didn't know that Bisley had banned camo following Hungerford. I didn't know Vince Green was full on into pistol shooting; interesting first hand commentary. No doubt Vince is a plant from the Gun Control Network (insert shaking head emoticon here that I can't manage to do on an iPhone).

 

Bring on BASC and sporting shooters. The public "get" sporting shooting.

 

Sorry, but there it is.

 

I think you are projecting your own interpretation on the public at large there... you say "Shooters seem to have this complete inability to properly look at themselves through the eyes of everyone else" and yet there is no evidence at all to suggest that what you are suggesting IS how 'everyone else' sees shooters.... this attitude genuinely seems to be borne from a feeling of insecurity and, in a lot of cases, down right paranoia! I think you will find that the general public (apart from finding firearms distasteful in general) find the idea of someone killing a 'poor defenceless' animal and then posing (gloating) behid it, fare more abhorrent than punching holes in paper. You then say "The public "get" sporting shooting!!!" You are delusional my friend!!! My mother in law is a 'typical' member of the public, she is actually quite intrerested and supportive of my target shooting exploits. If she finds out I'm going stalking she will call me 'sick' to my face and generally doesn't speak to me for a couple of weeks. I think your perception of the public attitude is completely on it's head! The 'target' shooting community is also much, much larger than the 'sporting' shooting community.

 

I think you would find that if a survey was conducted of the non shooting public, it would be target shooting that would be the sport the public 'got,' not killing animals!

 

Vince didn't answer my question but has hinted that he was an eye patch and diopter target shooting type rather than a PPC shooter which confirms my suspicions as to where his attitude has come from..

 

It was the same when mountain bikes hit the scene.. the old road warriors got on thier high horses and looked down thier noses at this new 'fad' as they thought they were 'better.' in reality they just didn't understand and now mountain biking is much bigger than road biking...

 

The same happened with Archery... compound bows and the type of person they attracted were seen as 'beneath' the die hard recurve shooters

 

I was there for both the above as well as being an active handgun shooter. never had any time for pure target shooting though, far too boring.

 

There are plenty of other examples out there from almost all sports... old boy purists just not understanding the new kid on the block sport.

 

Whilst I can understand Vince's feelings and agree with some of his sentiments, bisley sounds more like a Village People convention rather than a shooting meet! Just because a group of people want to immerse themselves in the atmoshpere does not make them Walts or Rambo wanabees. Does that mean those who play golf dressed head to toe in designer golf gear are nutters when a pair of M&S slacks & polo shirt will suffice? What about all the guys who wear thier team's or england football shirts or even those of you who go out head to toe in Harkilla gear.... wannabe grizzly adams types are you?

 

One of the guys I shoot with at my local club was shooting western style pistol to a very high level when he was younger, yes he dressed in cowboy gear, it added to the realism... with police pistol I can see that wearing a police uniform would 'add to the realism' (although I do find this one a little strange!) At my club, we always wore BDU pants and a black or green T when shooting PPC, it was what we did and how we dressed. Yes Joe public would have probably looked at us and thought we were the army on excercise but we never pretended to be something we weren't or acted in any way 'waltish.' In fact, contrary to Munglers and others fears, the public rarely if ever saw us dressed that way with weapons on show and being used as joe public was never present when we were shooting.

 

I would be interested in any evidence any of you can produce to show that dressing in combats etc, lowers the publics perception of us. I would also be interested in any evidence you have that shows the public's support for killing animals over target shooting ?

[Vipa]

The point I was making a couple of pages back was not that they were dangerous or anything of the sort, they were just ****** pure and simple. They never took the sport that seriously but cherrypicked certain disciplines and by their interest put a lot of money into them causing them to grow.

 

I have a lot of respect for a person who works hard to better his scores, practices his breathing and his trigger technique and improves his shooting year on year. I have no respect for someone who just wants to blaze away, never checks his score and walks away leaving his target still hanging on the frame for somebody else to clear up.

 

Vince... I think you have missed an important point here.... You may think it very 'American' but I don't see that should be an issue.... Shooting guns, firing weapons.... IS FUN...

 

I doub't you will find many on here that wouldn't love to have a go on a .50cal or even put a few thousand rounds through a mini gun given the opportunity (and the ammunition.) Am I right in thinking you would find this distasteful because they wouldn't check thier scores afterwards.

 

I think you need you understand that different people get thier kicks in different ways, and being critical of others just because they do something you personally don't understand or 'like' is a very narrow minded and, I'm sorry to say, selfish and ignorant view of life!

[the running man]

By the Barbican Armoury I presume you mean the range under the Barbican Centre in London Wall. I would still know this as Marylebone RPC but that name might have changed. It always was section 7 as far as I know.

no vince,the place I'm on about is up north somewhere. Marlybone rpc is now gone,as a location,the club still exists but they were turfed out I believe? I was chatting to ollie at the phoenix about it.and as for muglers last post,well I agree sometimes we can't be objective about in looking at ourselves,but this is only becase we are passionate about our hobby/sport...what I totally disagree with is the 'public get sporting shooting' qoute,which to me is a hypocritical contradiction of you're whole post!!!!! The public understand holes in paper,they don't like seeing dead animals....end of story!!!!! The times I've had conversations with people about shooting and they say what has that rabbit done to you? But if I say its only holes in paper,they are suddenly intrested.....

[the running man]

The point I was making a couple of pages back was not that they were dangerous or anything of the sort, they were just ****** pure and simple. They never took the sport that seriously but cherrypicked certain disciplines and by their interest put a lot of money into them causing them to grow.

 

I have a lot of respect for a person who works hard to better his scores, practices his breathing and his trigger technique and improves his shooting year on year. I have no respect for someone who just wants to blaze away, never checks his score and walks away leaving his target still hanging on the frame for somebody else to clear up.

I back you 100% on that vince. We do not tolerate behaviour like that at Any of my clubs.

[Vince Green]

Vince... I think you have missed an important point here.... You may think it very 'American' but I don't see that should be an issue.... Shooting guns, firing weapons.... IS FUN...

 

I doub't you will find many on here that wouldn't love to have a go on a .50cal or even put a few thousand rounds through a mini gun given the opportunity (and the ammunition.) Am I right in thinking you would find this distasteful because they wouldn't check thier scores afterwards.

 

I think you need you understand that different people get thier kicks in different ways, and being critical of others just because they do something you personally don't understand or 'like' is a very narrow minded and, I'm sorry to say, selfish and ignorant view of life!

Oh believe me we have had our fun and I have fired a 50bmg and a lot of other stuff as well here and abroad. Although we were a serious shooting club with one International and several national level shooters that doesn't make us boring,or narrow minded,or selfish,or ignorant.

 

No a plonker is a plonker always will be. Its a state of being. Every gene in every cell in their body has plonker written on it. You either understand this or you don't. Perhaps I have just worked out why you might not.......... Just joking don't get offended

Edited June 6, 2011 by Vince Green

[Mungler]

I think you are projecting your own interpretation on the public at large there... you say "Shooters seem to have this complete inability to properly look at themselves through the eyes of everyone else" and yet there is no evidence at all to suggest that what you are suggesting IS how 'everyone else' sees shooters.... this attitude genuinely seems to be borne from a feeling of insecurity and, in a lot of cases, down right paranoia! I think you will find that the general public (apart from finding firearms distasteful in general) find the idea of someone killing a 'poor defenceless' animal and then posing (gloating) behid it, fare more abhorrent than punching holes in paper. You then say "The public "get" sporting shooting!!!" You are delusional my friend!!! My mother in law is a 'typical' member of the public, she is actually quite intrerested and supportive of my target shooting exploits. If she finds out I'm going stalking she will call me 'sick' to my face and generally doesn't speak to me for a couple of weeks. I think your perception of the public attitude is completely on it's head! The 'target' shooting community is also much, much larger than the 'sporting' shooting community.

 

I think you would find that if a survey was conducted of the non shooting public, it would be target shooting that would be the sport the public 'got,' not killing animals!

 

Vince didn't answer my question but has hinted that he was an eye patch and diopter target shooting type rather than a PPC shooter which confirms my suspicions as to where his attitude has come from..

 

It was the same when mountain bikes hit the scene.. the old road warriors got on thier high horses and looked down thier noses at this new 'fad' as they thought they were 'better.' in reality they just didn't understand and now mountain biking is much bigger than road biking...

 

The same happened with Archery... compound bows and the type of person they attracted were seen as 'beneath' the die hard recurve shooters

 

I was there for both the above as well as being an active handgun shooter. never had any time for pure target shooting though, far too boring.

 

There are plenty of other examples out there from almost all sports... old boy purists just not understanding the new kid on the block sport.

 

Whilst I can understand Vince's feelings and agree with some of his sentiments, bisley sounds more like a Village People convention rather than a shooting meet! Just because a group of people want to immerse themselves in the atmoshpere does not make them Walts or Rambo wanabees. Does that mean those who play golf dressed head to toe in designer golf gear are nutters when a pair of M&S slacks & polo shirt will suffice? What about all the guys who wear thier team's or england football shirts or even those of you who go out head to toe in Harkilla gear.... wannabe grizzly adams types are you?

 

One of the guys I shoot with at my local club was shooting western style pistol to a very high level when he was younger, yes he dressed in cowboy gear, it added to the realism... with police pistol I can see that wearing a police uniform would 'add to the realism' (although I do find this one a little strange!) At my club, we always wore BDU pants and a black or green T when shooting PPC, it was what we did and how we dressed. Yes Joe public would have probably looked at us and thought we were the army on excercise but we never pretended to be something we weren't or acted in any way 'waltish.' In fact, contrary to Munglers and others fears, the public rarely if ever saw us dressed that way with weapons on show and being used as joe public was never present when we were shooting.

 

I would be interested in any evidence any of you can produce to show that dressing in combats etc, lowers the publics perception of us. I would also be interested in any evidence you have that shows the public's support for killing animals over target shooting ?

 

It wasn't until this thread that I learnt Bisley banned camo after Hungerford. If you don't get "why" then ask them.

 

As for your suggestion that the public are more against sporting shooters, really? Funny that I have all the sporting rifles and shotguns I want or need. Good job I don't target shoot with pistols or semi auto rifles eh?

 

Good luck in getting that ban repealed. Until there is an understanding and acceptance of what people see, think and feel outside of the shooting community then the ban will stay, won't it?

 

QED-tastic

[Vince Green]

It wasn't until this thread that I learnt Bisley banned camo after Hungerford. If you don't get "why" then ask them.

 

As for your suggestion that the public are more against sporting shooters, really? Funny that I have all the sporting rifles and shotguns I want or need. Good job I don't target shoot with pistols or semi auto rifles eh?

 

Good luck in getting that ban repealed. Until there is an understanding and acceptance of what people see, think and feel outside of the shooting community then the ban will stay, won't it?

 

QED-tastic

I'm not altogeather sure that the ban on cammo was as a direct result of Hungerford or just a general unease at the way things were going and comments being passed back. It was around the same time sure enough. Certainly the organisers of Pistol AD went further and banned uniforms and inappropriate styles of dress as well. As I said before the thing that used to annoy me more that anything were the blokes who would walk around all day wearing a hostered pistol when I strongly suspect they weren't even taking part.

 

But pistol shooting is never coming back so all this discussion is nothing but a history lesson

Edited June 6, 2011 by Vince Green

[the running man]

It wasn't until this thread that I learnt Bisley banned camo after Hungerford. If you don't get "why" then ask them.

 

As for your suggestion that the public are more against sporting shooters, really? Funny that I have all the sporting rifles and shotguns I want or need. Good job I don't target shoot with pistols or semi auto rifles eh?

 

Good luck in getting that ban repealed. Until there is an understanding and acceptance of what people see, think and feel outside of the shooting community then the ban will stay, won't it?

 

QED-tastic

I have just read you're post and am now thinking what is the weather like on you're planet? Have you been freeze dried? Or just been doing some hard time? Take a good look at what u have posted,its bias to a fault. What vipa said is 100% accurate,the public would choose range disciplined holes in paper over dead bambi or dead thumper or dead fantastic mr fox any day of the week........take that hard look at ureself like you were just preaching about. And as for u having everything uve asked for? What has that got to do with the price of cheese? And if ure good luck wish to getting pistols back rant is somehow supposed to wind anyone up,then u should read some of the posts as obviously ure oblivious to the fact u can still shoot pistols under second 7...........I'm disgusted with you're hypocritical attitude.

[Mungler]

But the public did make a choice - fact.

[the running man]

I'm not altogeather sure that the ban on cammo was as a direct result of Hungerford or just a general unease at the way things were going and comments being passed back. It was around the same time sure enough. Certainly the organisers of Pistol AD went further and banned uniforms and inappropriate styles of dress as well.

 

But pistol shooting is never coming back so all this discussion is nothing but a history lesson

ugh hello! Section 7? Lbp? Lbr? ???never say never.....

[Dr_Scholl]

Vince... I think you have missed an important point here.... You may think it very 'American' but I don't see that should be an issue.... Shooting guns, firing weapons.... IS FUN...

 

I doub't you will find many on here that wouldn't love to have a go on a .50cal or even put a few thousand rounds through a mini gun given the opportunity (and the ammunition.) Am I right in thinking you would find this distasteful because they wouldn't check thier scores afterwards.

 

I think you need you understand that different people get thier kicks in different ways, and being critical of others just because they do something you personally don't understand or 'like' is a very narrow minded and, I'm sorry to say, selfish and ignorant view of life!

 

It's hardly just Americans that have tactical pistol and other shooting competitions. In most European countries, people are allowed to own many of the same firearms as Americans, with varying degrees of red tape. If you look at IPSC and 3 gun matches throughout Europe, you'll see they're using AR-15's, Glocks, and 1911 style pistols, just like in the US. Even by European standards, your gun laws are very strict.

 

Finland

 

Sweden

[the running man]

But the public did make a choice - fact.

what choice is that? What fact is that? What in hades name are you on about?

[Vince Green]

ugh hello! Section 7? Lbp? Lbr? ???never say never.....

Section 7 is about as good as it gets and thats not very good. It all has to be done behind locked doors, you can't bring along friends and family and you can't compete, the guns cost an absolute rip off fortune and you are limited to choice.

 

LBP is better but the balance is destroyed by the long barrel.

 

Best by far is black powder pistol but avoid the trap that everyone falls into of buying some civil war era repro revolver that is never going to be accurate because it never was back then. Buy a single shot percussion, a target model if you can afford it and you are in with a good chance. Join the muzzle loaders and you will get the best pistol shooting now available.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

It's hardly just Americans that have tactical pistol and other shooting competitions. In most European countries, people are allowed to own many of the same firearms as Americans, with varying degrees of red tape. If you look at IPSC and 3 gun matches throughout Europe, you'll see they're using AR-15's, Glocks, and 1911 style pistols, just like in the US. Even by European standards, your gun laws are very strict.

 

Finland

 

Sweden

Yes but the European gun laws are closing things down all the time. Worse, or certainly faster, than here. Different countries have different things going on at any time but the general trend is there.

Some of the European forums suggest a policy of disarmament for political motives is the reason. There is a lot of concern in Europe.

[Vipa]

But the public did make a choice - fact.

Did they? And ther's me Thinking it was the Gov't who banned handguns and semi's... Must have missed the refurendum on that on!

 

Your logic defies belief Mungler and quite frankly really surprises me from a man in your position.. That is just like saying 'god loves me more than the Japanese because that's where the earthquake was and not here!'

 

No... It wasn't the public deciding that they understood sporting shooting it was that hungerford and dunblain were acts committed with handguns and semi autos. As 'sporting rifles' tend to be the most simple firearms technology (as do tactical sniper platforms, they are still legal too!) they were left alone as it's all they could do. To go further would have meant banning everything.

 

You are not blessed with public support for what you do, you are just very lucky the tools that enable you to do what you do didn't fall under the ban!

 

If I showed 2 photos of you to pretty much any member of the public, one with you competing in a target shooting match and one with you kneeling proudly behind a dead animal like the great white hunter, which one do you honestly think they would think

Better of??

[Vipa]

Yes but the European gun laws are closing things down all the time. Worse, or certainly faster, than here. Different countries have different things going on at any time but the general trend is there.

Some of the European forums suggest a policy of disarmament for political motives is the reason. There is a lot of concern in Europe.

 

Interesting Vince, I wasn't aware of that. Quite scary really. Easier to control an unsettled population if they aren't armed I suppose but is an obvious sign that the Gov'ts in those countries are expecting the troubles to worsen!

[the running man]

Interesting Vince, I wasn't aware of that. Quite scary really. Easier to control an unsettled population if they aren't armed I suppose but is an obvious sign that the Gov'ts in those countries are expecting the troubles to worsen!

yes the euro zone is closing things down,the un arms embargo did us no favours! U cannot take a 7.62 to euroland or a 5.56 they are classed as a military arm,so make sure its on ure ticket as a .308 and .223 !!! As for the general sweep and clear of stuff,I'm only aware of france being a bit restrictive,the rest of europe I know nothing of. But with rising food prices globally,I expect they are thinking of the old proverb 'any government is only 3 meals away from revolution'. Which means (to those of you who don't understand) if the people haven't eaten for a few days they are ready for an immediate change,and I suppose privately held firearms in the hands of the people just wouldent do!!!

[Vipa]

The whole premise of the 2nd amendment that seems to cause so much consternation.. It was designed to ensure no government could oppress it's population. What was that famous quote from one of the presidents....

 

The 2nd amendment is there to ensure that no government forgets that they work for the people.. Not the other way around!

 

It's also the same reason firearms legislation started after the 1st world war. The obviously paranoid British Gov't of the time feared an armed revolution!

[Scully]

I'm with Vipa on this one,all the way.And not sure if this is relevant or not really,but what about re-enactors?Very popular past-time in this country,and enjoyed by some very well respected people indeed,including our very own Bill Harriman.Grown men dressing up and running around in staged battles and skirmishes from history.Innocent fun,or a disturbing fantasy?Isn't the chief of ACPO who looked into the Cumbria shootings a re-enactor?

What about soft-air?Some very seriously replicas involved there.Innocent fun or disturbing fantasists?

Cowboy re-enactors?I've talked to people who participate in air-soft 'gaming',and strangely enough most of those I talked to had no desire to own the 'real thing'.Too many restrictions,was one reason.

I think the publics perception of people who like guns is coloured by their own fears and a constant diet of the hype that is anti-gun.

I took pistol shooting quite seriously,but there was always time for fun,and when you get down to it,that's what it's all about...FUN.There were those in our club who just owned pistols for fun,pure and simple.They enjoyed PP1 & 2,falling plate and skittles.Great fun.I no longer shoot pistols,but that's my choice,but I get just as much enjoyment from rifles and shotguns as I did from pistols.If I didn't enjoy it,I wouldn't do it,and neither would you.Get a grip lads.

[Vipa]

It is relevant to this argument scully. Wearing police uniforms during police pistol comps or bdus during practice pistol or cowboy outfits when competing in western shooting comps is absolutely no different to historical reenactment societies apart from the fact they used real ammo and real guns.

 

I find ballroom dancing ok but think those who go out dressed in the silly outfits rather strange, it's not for me at all but why should I lable them as nutters just because I 'don't get it'. It's just people taking what they love to do and immersing themselves as deeply in it as possible. If people find that alone threatening then I fear it is they who have the real problem, not the participant!

[Mungler]

Having gone through the pain barrier of taking pistols away, paying compo and dealing with the fall out in the gun trade and gun clubs do you ever see pistols being reintroduced? Can you imagine the political fall out for the government that repeals the ban should there be a further incident thereafter?

 

It's so not going to happen. But when did we ever let realism get in the way of a debate on here eh?

 

Good luck in getting that handgun ban repealed.

[Scully]

We're going round in circles here!When all else fails you keep repeating that statement about handguns not coming back.I'm not arguing with you,;you may have a point,but I think the thread has moved on from there to one of judging a shooters character and stability of mind simply from the way they dress and the perceived threat other shooters feel they represent because of the type of shooting they prefer and the guns involved.

Do you really think the general publics perception of shooters and shooting,and GUNS in particular,is going to change simply because one discipline of shooting is sacrificed in order to safeguard another?

If that was the case everything would be hunky dory now wouldn't it?Or can you suggest another discipline we should get rid of to placate the public?

I am sick and tired of this misguided belief amongst shooters that THEIR particular discipline is looked on more favourably than another.Can you not see the bigger picture?We're all in this together,like it or not.If you own a gun then your discipline is very much just as at risk as any other,make no mistake about that.

All that these fractures amongst shooters achieve is to make us weak.Even our shooting organisations are fractured;how many do we have now?Even they can't see the bigger picture,and most of those came about because one discipline or another felt the association they were allied to wasn't pulling it's weight when their particular discipline was in the spotlight,so another association was formed,with fewer members and less impact.

If we don't get our acts together and start singing from the same book,well....................