wymberley Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Was quite poorly before and after Christmas and as I couldn't do much my computor "favorites" list grew. I've just had a major edit and noticed the LAG and have deleted it along with all the other dross I'd collected. Isn't it time that Defra did the same? After all, no one seems particularly interested any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Hope you are better now, very sorry to hear you were poorly. There was a thread on this last week, the LAG is still very much in existance and waiting for the primary evidence risk assessment reports to be completed before they have another meeting. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Hope you are better now, very sorry to hear you were poorly. There was a thread on this last week, the LAG is still very much in existance and waiting for the primary evidence risk assessment reports to be completed before they have another meeting. David Thankyou, David. If you have to get shingles, make sure that it's treated in good time, otherwise, like me, you're in for a pretty ghastly undefined good few months. Cheers, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Don't for one minute think that the subject has gone away! All over Europe and the USA lead has/is being banned. The Greens and the bunny huggers throughout northern Europe are determined to make shooting as difficult as possible and any way they can find to stop us shooting they'll come up with it. It's the creep that those in power use to their own ends, a little at a time in the hope we won't notice...until it's gone. Judging by the (pathetically poor) numbers of shooters who responded to the Home Affairs Committee on Firearms Control who gives a **** anyway! You have been warned! :yp: Unfortunately a number of people (organisations, manufacturers and the like) appear to be preparing for defeat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 I think it's already decided Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 now now after all the negative PR we're assured that is not the case I'm waiting till the report comes out as I don't believe much said in the meantime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Nothing has been decided! For sure there are those that want to see lead banned and not just in shooting but across the board. There are those who are still want to get rid of lead shot, I saw this on the RSPB web site over the weekend: Jeff Knott, of the RSPB, said: "The toxicity of lead is well understood. We have successfully phased out its use in paints, petrol and children’s toys and the English lead shot regulations were designed to significantly reduce exposure of ducks, swans and other wetland birds to its damaging effects.” "It is troubling that these regulations are still being flouted and this conviction reinforces the conclusions of a recent report to Government which highlighted that 70 per cent of duck on sale in England were shot illegally with lead. Lead shot continues to contaminate the environment long after the gun has fallen silent.” Lets make sure we all comply with the regs! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) There was a thread on this last week, the LAG is still very much in existance and waiting for the primary evidence risk assessment reports to be completed before they have another meeting. David How long do we have to wait? The primary evidence risk assessment material list is here: http://www.leadammunitiongroup.co.uk/pdf/Primary%20Evidence%20References%2020%20October%202010.pdf As far as I can see the reports/papers that are to be considered consist only of material submitted by the anti lead groups. What exactly are the pro lead groups doing to counteract the overwhelming and damning evidence put forward against lead? Why has it taken so long to assess the primary evidence? Seven months so far!! Some of the reports concern lead used at clay grounds/rifle ranges. Why have CPSA and NRA not been involved in the LAG? Why is so much of the evidence being used against lead coming from the US and Europe? I thought this was to be a UK issue. Who exactly are the 'scientists' working on behalf of the pro lead group, and what are their qualifications? Why as the 'voice of shooting' in the UK has BASC's John Swift put himself forward as chairman of the LAG? A position where he has to remain neutral. As a BASC member I want him fighting for the retention of lead, not sitting on the sidelines. David, rather than passing on information second hand from Mr Swift could you maybe get him to come on here personally and answer members concerns? Edited May 31, 2011 by poontang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 How long do we have to wait? The primary evidence risk assessment material list is here: http://www.leadammunitiongroup.co.uk/pdf/Primary%20Evidence%20References%2020%20October%202010.pdf As far as I can see the reports/papers that are to be considered consist only of material submitted by the anti lead groups. What exactly are the pro lead groups doing to counteract the overwhelming and damning evidence put forward against lead? Why has it taken so long to assess the primary evidence? Seven months so far!! Some of the reports concern lead used at clay grounds/rifle ranges. Why have CPSA and NRA not been involved in the LAG? Why is so much of the evidence being used against lead coming from the US and Europe? I thought this was to be a UK issue. Who exactly are the 'scientists' working on behalf of the pro lead group, and what are their qualifications? Why as the 'voice of shooting' in the UK has BASC's John Swift put himself forward as chairman of the LAG? A position where he has to remain neutral. As a BASC member I want him fighting for the retention of lead, not sitting on the sidelines. David, rather than passing on information second hand from Mr Swift could you maybe get him to come on here personally and answer members concerns? When Moses clambered down Mount Sinai with a stone tablet under each arm, people sat up and paid attention (more then than now of course) to the ten points raised on them. Well, for my money, here's another ten that also deserve attention. Nice one, very nice one, poontang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I will answer your points to the best of my knowledge, but for more specific answers I think its best you contact the LAG directly here: info@leadammunitiongroup.co.uk As I see it this is a risk assessment not a report to generate a final decision on lead ammunition. Back to your points; Going through a raft of research papers to bring together a considered report will, I suspect, take some time. But I do not know how long it will take. Yes those are the main source documents as far as I am aware. The effects of lead ( and other metals) on humans, animals and plants has been a matter of research for many years as I am sure you are aware. The documents look at the reported effects of lead, from these the groups have to determine what, if any, real risk there is from lead through shooting activity and make this report to the main LAG. I believe the main LAG will then generate a report from this information to DEFRA , not any where near a final decision but likely to be more along the lines of what else needs to be looked at. Until the reports are submitted it’s not possible to judge what should be done next. This is the primary evidence group only, looking at a risk assessment, once the reports have come in there will be, I am sure, the need to look in more details at specific shooting disciplines and activities such as clay shooting or full bore target shooting, as you point out, that’s when others such as the CPSA and NRA will be involved as far as I am aware. Of course on live quarry issues BASC will be there as will others such as the NGO for example I believe. There has been allot of research already conducted in Europe and USA so it’s not surprising that this is a primary source of data. It’s not uncommon in scientific research to first look at whether anyone else has already researched what you are looking at, to get hold of that research and review it to see what else needs to be done, rather than just going over old ground as it were. That does not mean there will not be the need for more research in the UK. Remember some of the European research included the UK,such as the EFSA report on lead in food for example. The details of the people on the primary groups and their qualifications I don’t know off hand- you can contact the LAG directly for this info. Who would you rather have in charge of this group – the CEO of the RSPB or WWT? As the Chairman yes John has to be balanced and fair and to make sure the group runs to its terms of reference etc. But he is most certainly not sitting on the sidelines – he’s in the thick of it. John being the chair of the group does not hamstring BASC in any way and BASC will most certainly stick to our guns on our policy on lead shot I can assure you. You can, of course contact the LAG directly to ask any question you like, so you do not have to rely on ‘second hand’ information from me – sorry thought I was helping by passing on info – David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 So lead as a toxin is being looked at big whoop I could save the group all its time and effort and suggest its toxic in the right conditions. Simple fact is though its biggest danger to non waterfowl is when its doing 1400fps in their direction. After that point its harmless birds don't pick up enough of it in the countryside to be poisoned, eating game has never given anyone lead poisoning but that won't stop the group finding that the research says lead is toxic. Our whole defence is the Food standards research and really thats the voice of reason in a load of pretty muddled research, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I wonder if someone can put it better than that. I think it's one big con. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Good post Poontang.As far as I know there are no people on the pro side with relevant 'professional' qualifications in this field,not even a ballistics 'expert'. Talking to J Swift some months ago,he said there are a couple of scientists who are believed to be impartial,but apart from them there is no-one with formal qualifications in this field from BASC. I stand to be corrected on this,which David will no doubt do if I'm incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 We have many staff here who have been involved in the lead shot issue, not least of all Dr. John Harradine, or Director of Research. He and his team have been involved in terminal ballistic research for ages. Let’s wait to see what the results of the primary evidence groups are before we look at what the next steps will be. I think shooting is well represented to stake its case with the GTA, CA, GCWT and BASC involved in the main group and others surely to be brought in to look in more detail if there ay issues on target shooting or live quarry shooting as I have already said. All of the four mentioned are going to do their very best to protect the continued use of lead shot. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 We have many staff here who have been involved in the lead shot issue, not least of all Dr. John Harradine, or Director of Research. That's all very well David (though I'm afraid Dr.Harradine doesn't exactly fill me with confidence) but what have they actually been doing? Surely it's no secret, as their findings will eventually be put forward to the LAG? By the way David, many thanks for your replys, seems the CA chap who used to post on here is very noticable by his absence in the debate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Glad to help. All I can say is that I have worked with John Harradine for over 15 years and frankly could not think of anyone else who I would rather have in my corner on lead shot - I am a scientist by background (Human Biologist) by the way. What have they been doing? I believe they have been going through the wealth of research that’s out there on the three issues they are looking at and trying to sort out what is and is not relevant to lead shot in the context of any risks presented by lead shot in the UK, and then putting this into a balanced primary risk assessment report. As I understand it, as soon as the evidence / report is available, then John Swift will call another meeting of the group. The group’s task then will be, as far as I am aware, to go through the primary evidence risk assessment to see what if any issues arises and what the next steps will be. Obviously I am in no position to judge what will happen next, but looking at the EFSA report I cannot see any food based issues from game. The details of the reports will be on the LAG web site I am sure. But as I say any other questions it’s probably best to e-mail the LAG directly David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubshot Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Not forgetting REACH - Through Europe - Processing and Handle Lead as a Material Been talked about for Years UK Government spend a forune over the years looking @ alternative Materials For Shooters Etc Now waiting for European Parliment to Deal with it BOB/R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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