Paul223 Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi folks, looking for a dosage rate for worming pheasant and partridge with panacur 2.5% (fenbendazole) per liter water please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheasantMan Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I Dose mine strait into the drinkers. I put 5ml per bell drinkers. Theres no rules really depends how bad they are. You cannot over dose them so dont worry too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I pour a good glug into a drinker (25 litre) and give it a good shake, just done them today (8 weeks) and will do them again if the weather is rough in 3/4 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJon Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I though panacur was a cat/dog wormer? Thought solubenol was a game wormer ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I know a gentleman being prosecuted (a client of hours) for illegally using cattle wormer in his pheasants. Without a prescription from your vet using a product not specifically licensed for a condition in a particular species is illegal. What is been discussed here is 1. illegal 2. irresponsible not using drugs in an appropriate ways and possibly not at suitable concentrations. You are risking causing resistance to the wormer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) Apache. I take your point but I think there is a much bigger issue, one being the cost of flubenvet. The active chemicals are the same and it works. Also, if you look on a lot of poultry forums they post advice on this, along with using other products not licensed. You know a gentleman who is being prosecuted, if that's a fact it is a worry and I'm sure it will be in the shooting press in the near future. I am sure fenbendazol (spelling) is not similar to a antibiotic in the way it works, although you may know better, I'm not a scientist. Edited July 9, 2011 by markm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheasantMan Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) And your presuming he does not have a prescription to use panacur. It is used by the many of the leading game farms in the country including ours We use one of the best specialist poultry vets in the country and he reccomends us to use panacur. So let me be clear to you: Its not illeagal (with prescription) And is definatly not in anyway irresponsible. Every drug used in the treatment of most animals including poultry will build up resistance eventually obviously. Having flubenvet in your feed will help with worms but in no way gets rid of them thats a fact. Edited July 9, 2011 by PheasantMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 My prescription says 10ml per liter of water. I know of plenty of other people who use it because they get old stuff free from farmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheasantMan Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Its been Used widely as long as i can remember and does the job!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I take your point but I think there is a much bigger issue, one being the cost of flubenvet. As far as the Veterinary Medicines Regulations are concerned cost does not come into it. I am forced to sell a little old lady a veterinary licensed amoxycillin tablet at £1 each when human licensed ones are available at 5p. I would be breaking the law selling the human generic, despite the cost could make the difference between an animal being treated and an animal being put to sleep. Cost [as far as the law is concerned] has no bearing. Build the cost of the appropriate products into the cost of the shooting. The active chemicals are the same and it works. Yes it works, not in question in any way here. The active ingredients are similar but they are NOT the same. fenbendazole is not the same as flubendazole. Also, if you look on a lot of poultry forums they post advice on this, along with using other products not licensed. And? What's your point? I'm sure you could find many websites with certain religions condoning the bombing of westerners. Because we read it on the internet doesn't mean it's ok and we should do it. I am sure fenbendazol (spelling) is not similar to a antibiotic in the way it works, although you may know better, I'm not a scientist. Resistance to wormers is a huge issue and it's caused by inappropriate use and overuse. One of the worst things you can do is under-dose. By giving a low dose the parasites that have a degree of resistance are able to survive (they would be killed with a suitable dose) and they then breed. You are selecting resistant parasites and leaving them to breed killing the most susceptible. They've done it in sheep and it has got to such a state that some farms have resistance to the three most common wormer groups and have had to give up sheep farming. Resistance to anthelmintics (wormers) is just as serious as antibiotic resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 And your presuming he does not have a prescription to use panacur. If he did then the label would state a dose, they wouldn't need to ask on an internet forum. By law the label MUST contain certain information and when something is being used off license in a food producing animal that would include the dose, species and even the name of the specific vet prescribing the product. It is used by the many of the leading game farms in the country including ours We use one of the best specialist poultry vets in the country and he reccomends us to use panacur. On what grounds? These days it would be very difficult to justify the use of Panacur over Flubenvet as the Flubenvet is licensed in the particular species. I can link the cascade and you can ask the question to your vet why they prescribed the product over the licensed product. So let me be clear to you: Its not illeagal (with prescription) And is definatly not in anyway irresponsible. Every drug used in the treatment of most animals including poultry will build up resistance eventually obviously. Having flubenvet in your feed will help with worms but in no way gets rid of them thats a fact. Flubenvet is very effective if used correctly and will achieve a 99%+ kill in appropriately treated animals. Its been Used widely as long as i can remember and does the job!! So? It's illegal and irresponsible without a vet's prescription. I do hope we get some people prosecuted for it. We are given these rules and we need to obey them. My hands are tied everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 OK apache, you know your stuff. However relating / creating a link to someone having a few chickens to terrorists is a little OTT, also if you google worming chickens, it doesn't come up on the FBI hit list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheasantMan Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) It is possible from specialist poultry vets to get "informed consent" If you obtain this from your sepcialist vet it is possible to use panacur throughout the lifetime of your birds without the need to obtain a new prescription. For use of mdeicinal products under the "cascade". This is an "off label" prescription. Under UK legislation where there are no suitable medicines specifically authorised for the treatment of a particular species or a particular medical condition in that species, a medicinal product authorised for a different medical condition, or for use in another animal species or in humans, or under certain circumstances an extemporaneously prepared product. We work with the feed companys and leading, game farms (including mcfarlane's in america) and vets worldwide, Testing new drugs and trying to get pure breeds back to how they should be as there has been so much cross breeding, pure breeds are very hard to come by especially the old english black neck. If the drugs we used where not suitable we would most definatly not be using them. We have just tested new mycoplasma and worming drugs in our feed this year and i was still forced to use panacur at the end because they just didnt work. Just because your aware of the law it dosnt mean your correct. To The OP this is reccomended does which is on our vets website: http://www.stdavids-poultryteam.co.uk/game-bird-services/medication-dose-rates.aspx Edited July 10, 2011 by PheasantMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 (edited) Many thanks for the replies esp mr pheasant man with the link , vets had prescribed panacur for the birds in this pen 3 years ago when it was last used, just could not remember the dose rate. Edited July 10, 2011 by Paul223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 It is possible from specialist poultry vets to get "informed consent" If you obtain this from your sepcialist vet it is possible to use panacur throughout the lifetime of your birds without the need to obtain a new prescription. Thanks for the new information. Can you link to the part of the Veterinary Medicines Regulations that confirm it, I would be very interested to see that? My understanding is that you can buy POM-VPS medicines 'over the counter' in licensed establishments where SQP's are on the premises. Legally they can only be sold for their label claims - ie they can only sell you Panacur for the cattle/sheep/horse that it has a licence claim for. With a prescription they would need either a vet or a pharmacist in their employment to dispense the prescription. Despite the product being exactly the same you are breaking the law going to your local agricultural merchant for another bottle for use in gamebirds. Vets are advised not to prescribe for animals any longer than 6 months. I'm sure all sorts of things go on, but doesn't make them any less illegal. For use of mdeicinal products under the "cascade".This is an "off label" prescription. Under UK legislation where there are no suitable medicines specifically authorised for the treatment of a particular species or a particular medical condition in that species, a medicinal product authorised for a different medical condition, or for use in another animal species or in humans, or under certain circumstances an extemporaneously prepared product. Yes if you read "where there are no suitable medicines specifically authorised for the treatment of a particular species or a particular medical condition in that species" Then Flubenvet kills everything that Panacur would and Flubenvet has a product licence for use in pheasants and partridges - Panacur does not. Data sheet here: http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Janssen_Animal_Health/documents/S4718.html "Flubendazole is a broad spectrum anthelmintic for oral administration, active against mature and immature stages and eggs of the following nematodes of chickens, turkeys, geese, partridges and pheasants:" IF you had tired Flubenvet and it hadn't worked then your vet could prescribe a different drug as there would be a clinical justification. As much detail on the cascade as you could dream of: http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/pdf/vmgn/VMGNote15.pdf (note that gamebirds are food producing animals and have further levels on control over and above pets, which is where your cascade link comes from) To The OP this is reccomended does which is on our vets website: http://www.stdavids-poultryteam.co.uk/game-bird-services/medication-dose-rates.aspx Might have to send them an email. That's not really on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 Might have to send them an email. That's not really on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 Thanks for the new information. Can you link to the part of the Veterinary Medicines Regulations that confirm it, I would be very interested to see that? My understanding is that you can buy POM-VPS medicines 'over the counter' in licensed establishments where SQP's are on the premises. Legally they can only be sold for their label claims - ie they can only sell you Panacur for the cattle/sheep/horse that it has a licence claim for. With a prescription they would need either a vet or a pharmacist in their employment to dispense the prescription. Despite the product being exactly the same you are breaking the law going to your local agricultural merchant for another bottle for use in gamebirds. Vets are advised not to prescribe for animals any longer than 6 months. I'm sure all sorts of things go on, but doesn't make them any less illegal. Yes if you read "where there are no suitable medicines specifically authorised for the treatment of a particular species or a particular medical condition in that species" Then Flubenvet kills everything that Panacur would and Flubenvet has a product licence for use in pheasants and partridges - Panacur does not. Data sheet here: http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Janssen_Animal_Health/documents/S4718.html "Flubendazole is a broad spectrum anthelmintic for oral administration, active against mature and immature stages and eggs of the following nematodes of chickens, turkeys, geese, partridges and pheasants:" IF you had tired Flubenvet and it hadn't worked then your vet could prescribe a different drug as there would be a clinical justification. As much detail on the cascade as you could dream of: http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/pdf/vmgn/VMGNote15.pdf (note that gamebirds are food producing animals and have further levels on control over and above pets, which is where your cascade link comes from) Might have to send them an email. That's not really on. Let sleping dogs lie, perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheasantMan Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Let sleping dogs lie, perhaps. lol Im not sure where exactly it would be in regulations and wouldnt know where to start but i do know our vets are 1 of the most respected poultry vets in the UK and worldwide. The team are members of the BIAC Expert Opinion Division and the European Poultry Veterinary Study Group so they know there stuff! This is the from we would use to obtain "informed consent" http://www.stdavids-poultryteam.co.uk/game-bird-services/informed-consent-form.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 I know a gentleman being prosecuted (a client of hours) for illegally using cattle wormer in his pheasants. Without a prescription from your vet using a product not specifically licensed for a condition in a particular species is illegal. What is been discussed here is 1. illegal 2. irresponsible not using drugs in an appropriate ways and possibly not at suitable concentrations. You are risking causing resistance to the wormer. so you grassed up your own customer? As I fail to see how else you could get "caught" for this, it has to be said with the cost of licensing products there are lots out there where they aren't licensed but have been used for years. The only reason they aren't licensed is due to the market for gamebirds not being big enough to justify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 so you grassed up your own customer? No! We are trying to help our client out of the mess he has got himself into. He was raided for some other allegations that came to nothing, but they found an amount of cattle wormer and it is all they can pin on him. There's more to the story I am not saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted July 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 No! We are trying to help our client out of the mess he has got himself into. He was raided for some other allegations that came to nothing, but they found an amount of cattle wormer and it is all they can pin on him. There's more to the story I am not saying. oh, so you've grassed him up for using emtryl then ........... only kidding :yp: ps no i don't use emtryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 PheasantMan As you use St Davids you will therefore be aware of their procedures for issuing off label prescriptions. They do not issue off label scripts willy nilly to every Tom, **** and Harry but adhere strictly to the regulations and only issue such prescriptions where it is clinically necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PheasantMan Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Im fully aware of that. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 oh, so you've grassed him up for using emtryl then ........... only kidding :yp: ps no i don't use emtryl ******* hell i felt me heart go then lol ps i dont use emtryl eather it blocks up the drinkers something rotten :yp: :yp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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