njc110381 Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Right guys. I've just read somewhere that ball powder gives better accuracy in powder throwers than extruded types? Is that the case in your experience? It does make sense as I would assume it flows and settles more consistantly? Secondly, if that is the case, I'm nearly out of Varget. What ball powder is available that has a similar burn rate? I'm using it to load 50gr .223, 140gr 7-08 and 7x57 so it needs to be ok with them. Thanks in advance for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 After a good read on the 'net I'm leaning towards BLC2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) You need to check a reloading manual for your calibre and select the next one down (slower) or the next one up the list (faster). I use V133 in my .223 and its an extruded powder - I dont find it any problem but havent compared with any 'ball'powders. The load for mine at 26.0 grains is a compressed load but it shoots fine at 3600fps. I have a second powder V130 for 50 grain bullets but I normally stick to 40 grain v-max as they are perfect for the gun. If you need, I'll check my reloading manual and let you know the best alternative to Varget if u let me know the cal. Cheers Edited July 30, 2011 by Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) I had a browse through my Lee book and it lists BLC2 as being good in the .223. It's ok in 7-08 too, although not the best it gives reasonable velocity for a reasonable charge and I never do chase speed. The 7x57 it seems isn't listed, nor on the manufacturers website other than for 100gr, so it must be too fast for that. But then I have RL22 for my .338 and that is listed quite high in the favourites for 7x57 so I can use that. The good in a thrower thing doesn't matter so much in the 7x57 and .338 as I don't use as many rounds through them. Edit.... Is ball really that much better in a thrower? Edited July 30, 2011 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 Right guys. I've just read somewhere that ball powder gives better accuracy in powder throwers than extruded types? Is that the case in your experience? It does make sense as I would assume it flows and settles more consistantly? Secondly, if that is the case, I'm nearly out of Varget. What ball powder is available that has a similar burn rate? I'm using it to load 50gr .223, 140gr 7-08 and 7x57 so it needs to be ok with them. Thanks in advance for your help. tyhe reason ball powder is more accurate through a "powder thrower" is because its very fine,extruded powder can have slightly different size kernels whiuch will weigh slighty different also they can get chopped when you turn the handle of the thrower which ever powder you use you shouldnt relay on the thrower to throw accuratley,you should throw under your required charge and then trickle up to the weight of powder you require on a personal note I dont like ball powder its can be very dirty,also using a magnum primer with ball powder can help ignition duw to then powder being so fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I like to throw my rounds if and when I can. I managed to group at about an inch at 100 yards with thrown Varget loads at the range yesterday and that's good enough for most shots I take. For final zeroing I had 20 weighed rounds made up to get spot on but then I'll go back to thrown unless I know I will be taking long shots. I understand why long range target shooters or people who feel the need to take 500 yard shots on quarry may be fussy but for me, a thrown load is as accurate as I need it to be. If I can make that thrown load slightly better then great, but I don't want to weigh everything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 yeah its suprising but powder charge matters very much less than many suspect at 100yds, it does when you get out to 200+ though. With that in mind its funny how many develop loads at 100 yds, i have seen visibly different loads bug hole with 5 shot groups at 100yds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 (edited) Which ever powder you use you shouldnt relay on the thrower to throw accuratley,you should throw under your required charge and then trickle up to the weight of powder you require I would agree with that, thats what I have always done. Its not just about accuracy, its for safety as well. Very slim margins of safety on some of these high pressure loads. Edited August 1, 2011 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I would agree with that, thats what I have always done. Its not just about accuracy, its for safety as well. Very slim margins of safety on some of these high pressure loads. depends on how hot you go or which powder for which case. 100 yds bench rest shooters do it all the time and i doubt there is a little yellow umpha lumpa sat in the factory weighing each charge in factory ammo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I just throw straight into the powder scale then weigh every load anyway. With varget and an RCBS thrower it seems to rarely be out but for the time it takes its worth doing. Its not like you use lots of rounds in the field charging 30 cases takes me under 10 minutes that way and lasts a good month unless there are a serious number of foxes about. As Kent says its not for safety in my case as its impossible to double charge mine and would take a good couple of grains extra to be dangerous and the thrower is never out by that much. If you are target shooting I can see you might want to speed things up but not for normal use in the field its not necessary. Of course if you are really bothered then buy a chargemaster and every load done for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 On a lot of my shoots shots over 100 yards are unheard of. Often because the land is broken up by hedges or too uneven to shoot past that range anyway. If I know I'm going out somewhere special I will weigh out a few rounds to take, but otherwise there's little point. Most of my guns shoot start loads or just over. If I was shooting hot loads I agree weighing them would be essential for safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 NJ take that last post and then re read the initial post. The initial one you asked about accuracy now you are saying it doesn't matter. If it matters weigh each one and the powder really won't matter that much, you're thinking of swapping due to purely how easy to throw they are rather than performance of the powder. Personally Varget I find throws fine but it might be the RCBS thrower Vs Lee issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 I used to use Benchmark in my .223 and for bullets under 150grn in my .308, and it was very good. I have the video by G. David Tubb, and he demonstrates that throwing charges is ok out to 200yds, but beyond that you need to weigh them if you want to be consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 I have found AA2230 to be an excellent ball powder particularly in .223. I have not checked the burn rate chart to see where it lies with Varget ( one of my favorites for all weather conditions) As a general rule, again in my experience, ball powders are a little more temp sensitive than extruded powders. I get 3800 w/ 28 grs.2230 under a 40 vmax (26"tube) at 70 degrees F, It will drop to 3650 at 15 degrees F. Varget does not hardly vary. On the weighing charges issue I shoot out to 500 yards with the Swift at milk jugs(1 gal not 5) with dropped charges and no problems as long as the wind cooperates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 I like to throw my rounds if and when I can. I managed to group at about an inch at 100 yards with thrown Varget loads at the range yesterday and that's good enough for most shots I take. For final zeroing I had 20 weighed rounds made up to get spot on but then I'll go back to thrown unless I know I will be taking long shots. I understand why long range target shooters or people who feel the need to take 500 yard shots on quarry may be fussy but for me, a thrown load is as accurate as I need it to be. If I can make that thrown load slightly better then great, but I don't want to weigh everything! +++ I set up the measure checking weights on a scale and check maybe every 5th load, off the bench they shoot as well as weighing each one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Right guys. I've just read somewhere that ball powder gives better accuracy in powder throwers than extruded types? Is that the case in your experience? On a lot of my shoots shots over 100 yards are unheard of. Often because the land is broken up by hedges or too uneven to shoot past that range anyway. If I know I'm going out somewhere special I will weigh out a few rounds to take, but otherwise there's little point. NJ take that last post and then re read the initial post. The initial one you asked about accuracy now you are saying it doesn't matter. I asked about the accuracy of the thrower, not the accuracy of the round. Maybe you should re-read? I want to get the best out of my thrown loads without weighing them. If ball meters more accurately with no expense of my time then that would be a sensible change, right? Stop picking holes that aren't there and be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 buy a different thrower mine go back if they are out by .2 of a grain and its not often possibly one in 10 you're intimating your thrower isn't accurate a direct comparison with the same powder mine throws it fine. I'd keep using the powder that works rather than compromise powder just so you can get your thrower to work. How far out is it? I probably reject one in 10 but that is being very picky the differences aren't large at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Well I fired 30 thrown rounds and 10 measured rounds at the range the other day (100 and 200 yards) and the weighed loads grouped perhaps 1" better at 200. There really isn't much in it as both were well within minute of Fox at the ranges I shoot. I've run out of Varget at a point where I'm also changing the rifles that use it. Now seemed a sensible time to change powder type if it could offer an advantage to my thrown loads. I just happened to think about an article I read a while ago but now can't find that suggested ball was better. At the time I was happy with my Varget loads and had plenty left so didn't want to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 with the weighed group though how many were you finding threw accurately as you may find if its not throwing accurately that ball won't help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 It throws to within about half a dozen kernels if I do weigh and then trickle in to get it spot on. I've never adjusted the scale to see exactly how far out it is, but it's not a lot. I find the Lee thrower ok. It does get a bit sticky with extruded powders, I think because it's trying to cut them? Another reason I thought ball may help a bit? :look: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Here is something i say to every handloader who says their laods are accurate enough or one minute of fox. In the interests of not wanting to wound any quarry it is your duty to produce the most accurate ammunition you possibly can. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Here is something i say to every handloader who says their laods are accurate enough or one minute of fox. In the interests of not wanting to wound any quarry it is your duty to produce the most accurate ammunition you possibly can. Ian. The op stated the range which is very modest, thown loads are as such just fine for his purpose. 300 yds is a different issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Yes i understand that kent but i still believe it is every handloaders responsibility to produce the most accurate ammo he is capable of. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 I have to say not sure how those accuracy levels showed themselves but mine usually changes vertically with different charges with very little horizontal movement. I guess it is the difference between throwers as I just throw and weigh and fill the case 9 times out of 10 its within .1 of a grain if not I just throw it again, I guess I could trickle some on and it would save more time. However well the powder threw I'm not sure I would do away with weighing anyway simply as its habit now who knows if the one you didn't check turns out to be the one you really want the accuracy from. I guess if you bung hundreds down a range then maybe but thats of little interest to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Yes i understand that kent but i still believe it is every handloaders responsibility to produce the most accurate ammo he is capable of. So what do you say to the people who load to 'save money' then? [we all know they don't, but they don't know that..] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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