poachers

[Eskdale hawks]

I can hand on heart say I've never poached.... It's not that I'm super angelic, I just know it is wrong, illegal, effects others and is dangerous ....

 

Keepers/landowners have enough to do without poachers!!!

So! Your dog has never retrieved anything shot,from beyond the boundary of your permission? I expect not, but if it had, then technically you are poaching, as the shot game/pigeon or what ever, becomes the property of the landowner on which it falls, and you need permission to retrieve it. Most people who participate in 'Country sports' poach wether it be intentional or not at some time or another. The fact that the individual mentioned in the original post is poaching most of the time does not automatically make hime a scumbag. He may just enjoy being out in the countryside in persuit of game. You should never judge a book by its cover. I think the post about actually offering the lad some part-time work is actually a good idea. It may just turn him around. Some of the best gamekeepers and ghillies are ex-poachers! An agressive approach will always be met with an agressive rebuff, then it's all downhill from then on.

Like Lurchers, I will also admit to being in places where I didn't have permission to be, and taking Rabbits,in other words I was poaching. In those early days I never harmed any stock or damged any fencing, land, or property. I took only Rabbits, and left the place exactly as I found it. I never left litter in the countryside (still don't). In fact I leave very little trace of ever being there. During those early forays, I have been privilaged to witness at close quarters the way wildlife operates. I have seen and learned a lot about those creatures that few people will ever see in their lifetime. When I was younger I also went 'Nesting', though I never took any eggs. The challenge was to find the different birds nests and identify their eggs. I walked the countryside with the observers book of birds in one pocket and birds eggs in the other pocket. I spent most of my spare time fishing, watching birds and wildlife and taking the odd Rabbit or two. All this, on land where I had no permission to be. Does this make me a bad person? Does this make me a criminal? Remember! There were no PCs, wii's, playstations etc.... 30yrs back. I have no criminal record, I have a clean drivers licence, I hold both SGC and FAC........

On the subject of shooting the dog, ONLY the actual LANDOWNER/FARMER has the right to do this,(not the permission holder),even then it can only be done IF it can be proved that the dog was in the ACT of worrying livestock. Roe deer can not be classed as livestock as they are wild native deer. Only farmed Deer (usually Red Deer) could possibly be classed as livestock. The only way that this could be resolved is to catch him in the act of running a Deer with his dog, (very difficult to do), get him arrested by the police and charged under the wildlife and countryside act(hunting with Dogs). Taking Rabbits with a dog is not illegal. Rabbits are classed as an agricultural pest.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Eskdale hawks

[inthedark]

Every poacher I've dealt with comes out with the same old **** about not doing any harm, you only shoot em anyway, we dont make a mess, one for the pot, etc etc. They're a pain in the ****. The person subject of the OP needs dealing with, whichever way works best, and as he doesn't stick to the law, why should you?

[libs]

I have never poached... Although I think if we all take one thing away from this thread it should be how important paragraphs and grammar are...

[Paul T]

yes mate running some wild life is illegal but rabbits arn't with dogs.like i said farmer have a right chew now to what they used to as its theiving ****s that get everybody a bad name.farmers have the right to be warey giving permission as they dont no you and vice verser.its when you get older you get wiser thats why i have plenty of permission but hands on heart i never stole from farmers and most time poaching in my eyes means stealth so you have been and gone with nobody knowing.but these days most of them deserve what they get as they drive around fields damaging everything in front of them and stealing what they can.

In the context of the original post the wildlife referred to is deer, therefore it is illegal. You are correct at being able to hunt (with permission!) rabbits with dogs.

 

Poaching in my eyes (dictionary definition) means the illegal practice of trespassing on another's property to hunt or steal game without the landowner's permission. I've no time for anyone who either induldges in this practice or otherwise condones it.

[Mr_Logic]

On the subject of shooting the dog, ONLY the actual LANDOWNER/FARMER has the right to do this,(not the permission holder),even then it can only be done IF it can be proved that the dog was in the ACT of worrying livestock. Roe deer can not be classed as livestock as they are wild native deer. Only farmed Deer (usually Red Deer) could possibly be classed as livestock. The only way that this could be resolved is to catch him in the act of running a Deer with his dog, (very difficult to do), get him arrested by the police and charged under the wildlife and countryside act(hunting with Dogs). Taking Rabbits with a dog is not illegal. Rabbits are classed as an agricultural pest.

 

Does not have to be the farmer himself I'm afraid. Animals Act does not stipulate this.

[Kes]

I take issue with the chap who says retrieving fallen game from another's property is poaching - Its not.

Game remains the property of the person who shot it and he is legally entitled to recover his property, but without causing damage to another persons.

 

On another note, last night was a full moon, the first of the poaching season. There, as bold as brass at 9.30 - just after full dark, a poacher walking down the road, rifle with mod and scope across his shoulder in full camo gear with a full face hood so his ID was not visible to a passing driver. I couldnt stop as its a very, steep and dangerous and donwhill bend. Reported the offence immediately.

 

If this was you, I am going to catch you this season if I have to stay out for 2 days. I hope the police search gave you something to think about last night.

 

Poachers are scum and there's no romance or justification for it these days, its just theft.

[Eskdale hawks]

Does not have to be the farmer himself I'm afraid. Animals Act does not stipulate this.

Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 the owner, and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time, will be guilty of an offence if it worries livestock on agricultural land. The dog must have been attacking or chasing livestock in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering or, in the case of females, abortion or the loss or diminution of their produce. An offence is not committed if at the time of the worrying the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of 'livestock' includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Game birds and wild animals are not included."

 

Any dog which is not a working dog can be regarded as worrying livestock merely by being off lead and not under close control in a field or enclosure where there are sheep. A landowner could shoot such a dog, if it can be proved that the action was necessary to protect livestock and that it was reported to the police within 48 hours. The dog's owner can then be subject to all the above penalties too - except being shot, of course.

 

Kes - Then please tell me why , if you hit a pheasant or deer with a car, then legally you are not allowed to stop and pick it up? Here is a question posed by a stalker and answered by a A solicitor who specialises in country sports law.

 

Q) Last week I shot a roebuck, which was standing on the bank that forms a boundary between my farm and that of my neighbour. The buck ran 20 yards and then collapsed in my neighbour’s field. Was I within my rights to recover it from there?

(Name and address supplied)

 

 

A)The bank must belong either to yourself or your neighbour. If the buck was on your ground, you were entitled to shoot it, but not if it was on your neighbour’s, or you would have committed civil and criminal offences. As for the recovery of the carcase, you must have entered your neighbour’s land to remove the roe. In the absence of an agreement with your neighbour, or a genuine, soundly based belief that he would not have minded, you had no right to set foot on his land without his permission, let alone follow up the buck. Though you may think of it as your buck, you may again be liable in civil law for trespass and guilty in criminal law of trespassing with a firearm and illegal carcase removal. Similar liabilities might apply if you fired from your land over ground belonging to another at a buck on land belonging to you but on the other side of it. This would at least be a case of constructive trespass. Usually, all the ensuing unpleasantness can be avoided by prior liaison with neighbours.

 

I hope you are not referring to me, ("If this was you")? I have no need to poach, I have all the land I need. When I was younger I openly 'trespassed' over a wide area of my home town. I knew most of the farmers by sight , some by name and they knew me. I built up an understanding based on trust that allowed me to persue my activities undisturbed. They knew that I would alert them to any wrong doing by others. They regarded me as an extra pair of eyes. I was about when most 'normal' people were in bed. Like I said, I have no criminal record. I have never been in trouble with the police.

 

As for the 'poacher with a rifle/mod/scope', A ) How do you know he was a poacher? B ) if he was indeed poaching and he had an uncovered rifle in a public place, then he was commiting and offence just by being there and have an uncovered firearm in a public place. If he was indeed on private land where he had no right to be then he was commiting an offence of armed trespass. I agree, people like this get everyone who legally shoots a bad name.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Eskdale hawks

[Nial]

well where do i start last year while out lamping with verminator69 on one of my shoots we came across a local lad who has been netting the river through my shoot for sea trout(poaching ) .we chased him across a stubble field in the dark in my landy and he jumped into a wood a would not come out .we found him push bike and were going to drive over it in the landy (we never saw it cause it was dark ) but the farmer didnt want any hassle which i can under stand he has to live there after all .

 

 

You should lift his bike and leave a note saying he can reclaim it from the local police station.

 

:-)

 

 

Nial.

[Colster]

 

 

Kes - Then please tell me why , if you hit a pheasant or deer with a car, then legally you are not allowed to stop and pick it up?

 

Urban myth, based on an old law where it was feasible for drivers to use their vehicles to injure a bird for their own taking.

 

If you hit it on a highway, then literally it belongs to the highways dept but I can't see them pursuing you for the lost meat. As far as deer go though, I wouldn't eat a deer that had been hit by a car, they rarely die quickly and I'd always been led to believe the adrenalin would taint the meat.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Colster

[Eskdale hawks]

Urban myth, based on an old law where it was feasible for drivers to use their vehicles to injure a bird for their own taking.

 

If you hit it on a highway, then literally it belongs to the highways dept but I can't see them pursuing you for the lost meat. As far as deer go though, I wouldn't eat a deer that had been hit by a car, they rarely die quickly and I'd always been led to believe the adrenalin would taint the meat.

You are quite right about the ownership of roadkill!

Here is an extract from the Independant.

"Ownership of roadkill is debatable. Most country people assume that the driver who kills the rabbit, pheasant or pigeon may not make a meal of it, but the driver of the car behind can. In 2004, when I was researching my book on economic cooking, The New English Kitchen, the Highways Agency told me that it owns roadkill, but this rule is rarely enforced. It is, though, the party that is responsible for clearing it away".

 

With regard to Deer, what happens when a Deer is shot and does not drop but runs on? This reaction to the shot is driven by adrenalin. Does this mean that this meat would be tainted also? I personally wouldn't eat venison that had been involved in a collision with a vehicle because if the gut was ruptured (and it more than like would be) then this would render the meat unfit for human consumption. Any bruising will also make the meat taste sour.

[Kes]

Kes - Then please tell me why , if you hit a pheasant or deer with a car, then legally you are not allowed to stop and pick it up? Here is a question posed by a stalker and answered by a A solicitor who specialises in country sports law.

 

 

Hi Eskdale, I was not referring specifically to you - I have been plagued by poachers recently and im my view there is no defence to theft.

WRT to ownership of a bird or deer carcass. The beast doe not become the ownership of the man whose land it falls on - it remains your property. You must assume that the owner would not mind you recovering it - this is reasonable especially if you wish to confirm the animal is truly deadand not just immobilised. Who would want an animal to suffer? You must take the shortest route to recover the animal, not wander about in and out with no attempt to do other than recover the animals body. A branch of a tree remains the property of the person who owns the land upon which the tree stands.

In absolute law, if you as a neighbour wish to take down an overhanging branch, you can do so but the branch is not owned by you and should, in theory only be 'used' with the consent of the owner. Custom and practice means that we accept that the guy who chopped off the branch will dispose of it - in much the same way we can also be presumed to be acting reasonably to recover game, unless we act unreaonably of irresponsibly. No one in their right mind would take a gun - an gun - on to another persons property without lawful permission. This is a specific law and must be treated in that way. You sould leave a gun (disabled) on you own property/permission and recover on foot or with a closely supervised dog.

Try and prosecute someone for doing this reasonably and you'd lose. The law strated to protect ownership and is based upon what is reasonable - understand that and you cant go far wrong. I see no conflict between the advice you quoted and this - can you?

 

Finally, I knew he was poaching because on one side of the highway is the shoot I am a pert -time keeper for and on the other is land owned by a farmer I kow who doe not alow anyone to go on his land with a rifle nless accompanied. Being on the highway without a slip and with your face covered and without permission off the highway at the point you are intercepted is poaching.

 

By the way, If you hit a pheasant or a deer with a car and the owner of the animal is not to hand to recover it, no-one would mind you removing it - unless you were a poacher as this law was designed t protect landowners from theives who gathered birds from the highway without committing the 'going prepared for'

 

Why do you try to defend the indefensible ?

Edited August 14, 2011 by Kes

[cocker3]

[quote name='Eskdale hawks' timestamp='1313278480' post='1497657'

The fact that the individual mentioned in the original post is poaching most of the time does not automatically make hime a scumbag. He may just enjoy being out in the countryside in persuit of game. You should never judge a book by its cover.

 

sorry but he is a scumbag he can enjoy the country side on land he has perm on and i think i will judge this book buy its cove

 

 

Like Lurchers, I will also admit to being in places where I didn't have permission to be, and taking Rabbits,in other words I was poaching. In those early days I never harmed any stock or damged any fencing, land, or property. I took only Rabbits, and left the place exactly as I found it. I never left litter in the countryside (still don't). In fact I leave very little trace of ever being there.

 

 

so you were a crafty poacher big deal you were still poaching and maybe you never harmed any live stock or damaged anything but what about the farmer out at all hours of the night trying to catch you and the strees it caused him haveing some theif on his land ever thought about that

 

 

I spent most of my spare time fishing, watching birds and wildlife and taking the odd Rabbit or two. All this, on land where I had no permission to be. Does this make me a bad person? Does this make me a criminal? Remember! There were no PCs, wii's, playstations etc....

yeh it doe,s make you a criminal what ever way you try to polish it. so 30 years ago every body poached did they because they never had playstations or the likes what a pile of ****

[cocker3]

Every poacher I've dealt with comes out with the same old **** about not doing any harm, you only shoot em anyway, we dont make a mess, one for the pot, etc etc. They're a pain in the ****. The person subject of the OP needs dealing with, whichever way works best, and as he doesn't stick to the law, why should you?

why should i because i am not a criminal simple

[cocker3]

You should lift his bike and leave a note saying he can reclaim it from the local police station.

 

:-)

 

 

Nial.

its funny you should mention that thats where his bike was taken to last night by the farmer

[Kes]

To clarify my earlier post - it seems to have been misinterpretable !

 

I warned the actual poacher " if this was you", no-one else.

 

If anyone else fancies poaching my pheasants then it applies to them also.

I'm sorry but all poachers I come across are scum. If they asked they could beat on the shoot, I'd even take them pigeon shooting but steal my birds and they will get treated as they are.

[cocker3]

so none of yous have ever poached [but yous will probably say no]wwhich what i would expect.how do you no he is a druggie cos he poachers ******** so you dont realy no the lad.i no a lot of lads who wonder off the land they have permission on just like most of yous and yes i have done a lot of poaching when i was younger so that makes me a scum bag druggie to then [even though i hate drugs]so yous hate me to even though none of yous know me and im a good decent bloke who will help anybody out.at the end of the day yous a fireing bullets here at some body yous dont even know fair enough if he give ya **** when you tell him to stay off the land as youve had it 20yrs thats different as you never said that so i would chase him to but he would give up coming on before things got out of line.as for breaking into a house or a car is totally different so you can sme its the same **** as this as it isnt.like you said earlier keep smashing his stuff up every chance you get he will learn to stay away and you cant tar everybody with the same brush cos they do a bit of poaching i dont believe in people that thieve from farmers while out poaching as they dam hard for what they have got so this question is left open for yous to say you wouldnt like it if they came in your garden blar blar as i said its a different kettle of fish.

i know he,s a druggie for 3 reasons

1 think marvin from the scheme on a realy bad day

 

2 talks and looks like a druggie

 

3 i have been told by 10 people who live in the village he lives in he has been in and out of jail for drug offences

 

no mate it doesnt make you a scumbag druggie just a scumbag you asked for that

[Eskdale hawks]

Kes - Then please tell me why , if you hit a pheasant or deer with a car, then legally you are not allowed to stop and pick it up? Here is a question posed by a stalker and answered by a A solicitor who specialises in country sports law.

 

 

Hi Eskdale, I was not referring specifically to you - I have been plagued by poachers recently and im my view there is no defence to theft.

WRT to ownership of a bird or deer carcass. The beast doe not become the ownership of the man whose land it falls on - it remains your property. You must assume that the owner would not mind you recovering it - this is reasonable especially if you wish to confirm the animal is truly deadand not just immobilised. Who would want an animal to suffer? You must take the shortest route to recover the animal, not wander about in and out with no attempt to do other than recover the animals body. A branch of a tree remains the property of the person who owns the land upon which the tree stands.

In absolute law, if you as a neighbour wish to take down an overhanging branch, you can do so but the branch is not owned by you and should, in theory only be 'used' with the consent of the owner. Custom and practice means that we accept that the guy who chopped off the branch will dispose of it - in much the same way we can also be presumed to be acting reasonably to recover game, unless we act unreaonably of irresponsibly. No one in their right mind would take a gun - an gun - on to another persons property without lawful permission. This is a specific law and must be treated in that way. You sould leave a gun (disabled) on you own property/permission and recover on foot or with a closely supervised dog.

Try and prosecute someone for doing this reasonably and you'd lose. The law strated to protect ownership and is based upon what is reasonable - understand that and you cant go far wrong. I see no conflict between the advice you quoted and this - can you?

 

Finally, I knew he was poaching because on one side of the highway is the shoot I am a pert -time keeper for and on the other is land owned by a farmer I kow who doe not alow anyone to go on his land with a rifle nless accompanied. Being on the highway without a slip and with your face covered and without permission off the highway at the point you are intercepted is poaching.

 

By the way, If you hit a pheasant or a deer with a car and the owner of the animal is not to hand to recover it, no-one would mind you removing it - unless you were a poacher as this law was designed t protect landowners from theives who gathered birds from the highway without committing the 'going prepared for'

 

Why do you try to defend the indefensible ?

 

Hi! Kes, Glad you weren't referring to me. Yes it did look like you could possibly be referring to me. I am not trying to defend anyone, just trying to clarify the circumstances. I have already agreed that poaching is wrong.

Please re-read the question posed by a legitimate stalker to a professional solicitor and the solicitors reply.

 

Q) Last week I shot a roebuck, which was standing on the bank that forms a boundary between my farm and that of my neighbour. The buck ran 20 yards and then collapsed in my neighbour’s field. Was I within my rights to recover it from there?

(Name and address supplied)

 

 

 

A)The bank must belong either to yourself or your neighbour. If the buck was on your ground, you were entitled to shoot it, but not if it was on your neighbour’s, or you would have committed civil and criminal offences. As for the recovery of the carcase, you must have entered your neighbour’s land to remove the roe. In the absence of an agreement with your neighbour, or a genuine, soundly based belief that he would not have minded, you had no right to set foot on his land without his permission, let alone follow up the buck. Though you may think of it as your buck, you may again be liable in civil law for trespass and guilty in criminal law of trespassing with a firearm and illegal carcase removal. Similar liabilities might apply if you fired from your land over ground belonging to another at a buck on land belonging to you but on the other side of it. This would at least be a case of constructive trespass. Usually, all the ensuing unpleasantness can be avoided by prior liaison with neighbours.

 

So are you saying that the answer given to the above question is wrong?

[cocker3]

well the water bailif was out yesterday and chased said scumbag along the river but he crossed the river and they could not follow him over the water (why i dont know but there you are )and they lifted his nets. so heres hoping it will give him a scare and keep him away for a while but i dont think it will . his bike was found i a stubble field and the farmer took it to the local police station so if he wants it back he knows where it is :lol: .

Edited August 14, 2011 by cocker3

[cocker3]

So! Your dog has never retrieved anything shot,from beyond the boundary of your permission? I expect not, but if it had, then technically you are poaching, as the shot game/pigeon or what ever, becomes the property of the landowner on which it falls, and you need permission to retrieve it.

i can honestly say no as all on my game shooting i have asked for perm from all boundary farms to retrive any shot game 3 out of 4 gave me per the one that never is against shooting (which is fine by me)so we never shoot near that boundary

[Eskdale hawks]

yeh it doe,s make you a criminal what ever way you try to polish it. so 30 years ago every body poached did they because they never had playstations or the likes what a pile of ****

So I am talking a pile of ****e am I. I am not saying that 30yrs ago everybody poached. What I am saying is that I was always on land were I had no permission to be. Most of the farmers knew me by sight and I them. Some knew me by name. None barr a handful ever gave permission to ANYONE! Like I say, I was there on trust. Something that I find lacking in modern society. Nowerdays, most people who poach do so for financial gain. I didn't. and before you say it I am not trying to "dress it up". Like I said the farmers regarded me as an extra pair of eyes that they were glad of. I have NEVER taken anything but rabbits on any of the land I used to walk over. I have NEVER been in trouble with the law. So how can I be a criminal with no criminal record?

Edited August 14, 2011 by Eskdale hawks

[Kes]

Hi! Kes, Glad you weren't referring to me. Yes it did look like you could possibly be referring to me. I am not trying to defend anyone, just trying to clarify the circumstances. I have already agreed that poaching is wrong.

Please re-read the question posed by a legitimate stalker to a professional solicitor and the solicitors reply.

 

Q) Last week I shot a roebuck, which was standing on the bank that forms a boundary between my farm and that of my neighbour. The buck ran 20 yards and then collapsed in my neighbours field. Was I within my rights to recover it from there?

(Name and address supplied)

 

 

 

A)The bank must belong either to yourself or your neighbour. If the buck was on your ground, you were entitled to shoot it, but not if it was on your neighbours, or you would have committed civil and criminal offences. As for the recovery of the carcase, you must have entered your neighbours land to remove the roe. In the absence of an agreement with your neighbour, or a genuine, soundly based belief that he would not have minded, you had no right to set foot on his land without his permission, let alone follow up the buck. Though you may think of it as your buck, you may again be liable in civil law for trespass and guilty in criminal law of trespassing with a firearm and illegal carcase removal. Similar liabilities might apply if you fired from your land over ground belonging to another at a buck on land belonging to you but on the other side of it. This would at least be a case of constructive trespass. Usually, all the ensuing unpleasantness can be avoided by prior liaison with neighbours.

 

So are you saying that the answer given to the above question is wrong?

No, I'm saying that it says you may not shoot onto anothers land, only on your own. It says if the deer was shot on your land and went over to the other land, you can collect it without a problem if you genuinely believed that the landowner who owned that land would not mind. Here, if your defence was (it was severeley wounded and I wanted to recover it to despatch it) - I dont think you could be prosecuted - the above advice says that.

It says dont take a gun or you are guilty of another offence altogether - I've said that.

the shooter could only be liable for "illegal carcase removal" if the deer was illegally shot on the adjacent land.

 

So the advice isnt wrong. If you read it correctly, it says you can recover deer/pheasant which was shot on your own land if you do so in the beilef that the landowner would not object and you did not take a gun.

 

 

It says no more no less than that - you think it says you cant recover a deer in the circumstances I have set out? You are wrong - IMHO.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Kes

[Eskdale hawks]

No, I'm saying that it says you may not shoot onto anothers land, only on your own. It says if the deer was shot on your land and went over to the other land, you can collect it without a problem if you genuinely believed that the landowner who owned that land would not mind. Here, if your defence was (it was severeley wounded and I wanted to recover it to despatch it) - I dont think you could be prosecuted - the above advice says that.

It says dont take a gun or you are guilty of another offence altogether - I've said that.

the shooter could only be liable for "illegal carcase removal" if the deer was illegally shot on the adjacent land.

 

So the advice isnt wrong. If you read it correctly, it says you can recover deer/pheasant which was shot on your own land if you do so in the beilef that the landowner would not object and you did not take a gun.

 

 

It says no more no less than that - you think it says you cant recover a deer in the circumstances I have set out? You are wrong - IMHO.

Yes I understand what it says and what you are saying. Of course it is every sportsmans responsability to retrieve and humanely dispatch shot/wounded game. What I am saying is, once the shot has been taken and the animal/bird falls on adjacent land, then technically it becomes the property of the landowner and you need permission to legally retreive it. It does not belong to you because it is a wild animal. I aplogise to the original poster as this conversation diverts from the original post.

[cockercas]

Eskdale hawks. You only get branded a criminal when you get caught. You say you have neve been caught. That is why you are a criminal. Just one that hasent been caught.

[Eskdale hawks]

Eskdale hawks. You only get branded a criminal when you get caught. You say you have neve been caught. That is why you are a criminal. Just one that hasent been caught.

I also said that the farmers all knew me!. None of them gave me permission to be on their land and they didn't mind me being there. As long as I didn't cause any damage they tolerated me being there. They also never minded me taking Rabbits as I was doing them a favour. I never made any attempt to evade them. Now that is what is called 'Mutual respect' and respect has to be earned. I earned it as did they!

[highseas]

a lot of hot air hear lads...lets all calm down

 

remember a poacher is a gamekeeper out side in and a gamekeeper is a poacher inside out