Lennie Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Hello everyone I have searched the forum but can't find an answer to my specific question so I'm hoping someone on here can clarify for me… My FEO came round yesterday to speak to me regarding the grant of an FAC (plus he's renewing my shotgun cert.). At the end of the 'interview' he said I would need a mentor for my first rifle, a .17HMR. I said my father could mentor me, which the FEO was happy with. Without calling him back and opening a cans of worms, I wondered if the mentor has to own a .17HMR himself, because my father only has 22 rimfire rifles? I know he did have a slot for a .17HMR but never bought one and may have had the variation removed. If he has had it removed, would he need to reapply for it and would he need to buy a .17HMR to mentor me or would he only have to give me the 'required' experience with rimfire rifles? Maybe I should have asked the question; maybe the FEO should have been clearer in what was needed but you can't think of everything at the time. For example, if my father needs to own a .17HMR, could he just have the variation on his FAC, I then pay for the gun I want (i.e. give my father the cash), he has it on his license and keeps it at his house in his cabinet. Now, because he owns the gun and buys the ammo, would a letter from him in, say 12 months time, saying I had been mentored with his rifle until I had gained enough experience, be sufficient evidence for the firearms office to remove my mentoring condition? Or do we then have the problem that I can't shoot his gun on my land (my permission / occupier)? I guess the crux of it is, does my mentor have to own a .17HMR, plus I have to own one for me to gain the 'required' experience? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 you do not need a mentor for .17hmr,i applied for my fac at the beginning of the year and was told by my firearms dept that i needed a mentor/experience for .22lr and .17hmr,i was on to them for months,in the end i had a phone call from firearms dept saying they were very sorry and they couldn't understand what went wrong and i could have what i applied for, stand your ground and keep on to them,by the way BASC firearms dept was a waste of time,no help at all, andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 you do not need a mentor for .17hmr,i applied for my fac at the beginning of the year and was told by my firearms dept that i needed a mentor/experience for .22lr and .17hmr,i was on to them for months,in the end i had a phone call from firearms dept saying they were very sorry and they couldn't understand what went wrong and i could have what i applied for, stand your ground and keep on to them,by the way BASC firearms dept was a waste of time,no help at all, andrew Thanks Andrew By the way, I have spent the past two hours trying to get hold of someone at BASC in the firearms dept. and I haven't got through, apart from an automated message that no-one's available to take a call, but please lease details and they'll get back to me. Well I don't really want to do that, because I'm at work and it's a bit difficult to start talking about firearms while here. So I have to try and contact them when I can. Alas, no luck so far I will contact by Firearms dept. but I do expect some differing answers to my question too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I would take the mentoring condition and just work your way though it. Clearly the FEO feels you need a bit of guidance. I'm sure he'll not forget your name if you manage to get BASC to overrule his decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Hi Billy I told the FEO that I had been brought up shooting. I have owned or used my Fathers air rifles since I was a young boy, I own shotguns and I have shot my Father's .22 rimfire on many occasions. My father-in-law shoots every type of firearm and I have permission to shoot on two farms, a cricket club and go a couple of times a week with air rifle and/or shotgun. The only thing I said was I hadn't used a .17HMR before and it was of course a grant rather than a renewal. I guess if it's law/preferred for the applicant to have a mentor that's fair enough, but it seems slightly excessive to me. Anyway, that's slightly off-topic. The question is really; if I HAVE to have a mentor, then does my mentor have to own a .17HMR themselves or can they just have an FAC, a rifle and many years experience of shooting them? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) I mentor a lad who owns a .17 HM2 and I don't own one. So in answer to your question, no, the mentor doesn't have to own the exact calibre. Edited September 21, 2011 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I guess if it's law/preferred for the applicant to have a mentor that's fair enough, but it seems slightly excessive to me. I would get your father to write a nice letter explaining how you've shot with him many times using his larger calibre rimfire and you are an experienced safe shot. They may well put the whole mentor idea to bed. There is NO requirement anywhere in law for you to have any sort of mentor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Brilliant Billy. That's exactly the answer I wanted! Cheers mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 In my county the mentor has to have the same calibre of rifle or a larger calibre rifle to the one you are mentoring for which your father does so you should be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) I would get your father to write a nice letter explaining how you've shot with him many times using his larger calibre rimfire and you are an experienced safe shot. They may well put the whole mentor idea to bed. There is NO requirement anywhere in law for you to have any sort of mentor. Thanks Apache That's something else I've considered. My only worry is annoying the FEO. He's new (our previous one retired), so I'm likely to have him, as my FEO, for a long time! It may be worth calling my Firearms dept. and saying what you've said and take their advice. My biggest problem for mentoring is getting my Father out in the cold to go shooting these days Thanks to you Luckyshot for your reply too Edited September 21, 2011 by Lennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) Thanks Apache That's something else I've considered. My only worry is annoying the FEO. He's new (our previous one retired), so I'm likely to have him, as my FEO, for a long time! It may be worth calling my Firearms dept. and saying what you've said and take their advice. My biggest problem for mentoring is getting my Father out in the cold to go shooting these days Thanks to you Luckyshot for your reply too Mentoring dosent have to last very long. I mentored a mate of mine for his first cf rifle, it only lasted 6 weeks and the condition was lifted. Edited September 21, 2011 by Luckyshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Mentoring dosent have to last very long. I mentored a mate of mine for his first cf rifle, it only lasted 6 weeks and the condition was lifted. See that's where the confusion is for me. Everywhere I've searched and read on here, everyone's said between 6 and 12 months for mentoring. My FEO said 2 years!!! It does seem like I've had an awkward one yesterday. I think I should go through the mentoring. Give it until the end of the winter, or 6 months and then get my father to send a letter in saying I've been mentored and go from there. Just to let you know; I'm 40 years old (in two months time), I'm a homeowner with a family and full-time job and a clean record. I even had a shave yesterday! What I'm trying to say is he hasn't looked at me and thought I'm a kid etc – not that it should matter anyway really. Anyway, it is what it is and I'll just have to live with it. Thanks for the answers though, because it seems like I can use my Father as a mentor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Sorry you are having trouble getting through, quite literally all our team are on the phone - it’s that time of year when we get very busy with renewal issues, not helped by the cut backs in funding within the police! If you can’t get through, then leave a message with the best number and time to contact you we will do our best. As you have been correctly told by Billy your mentor does not have to have the same calibre as you. Usually mentoring conditions and the like are only handed out if the alternative would be to refuse to grant Conditions are all but impossible to overturn in Court by the way and there is legal precedent for this, sadly. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Sorry you are having trouble getting through, quite literally all our team are on the phone - it’s that time of year when we get very busy with renewal issues, not helped by the cut backs in funding within the police! If you can’t get through, then leave a message with the best number and time to contact you we will do our best. As you have been correctly told by Billy your mentor does not have to have the same calibre as you. Usually mentoring conditions and the like are only handed out if the alternative would be to refuse to grant Conditions are all but impossible to overturn in Court by the way and there is legal precedent for this, sadly. David Thanks David I don't have an issue with BASC, I've never tried calling them before actually. I'm sure it's normally fine and next time I call I will give them a time which suits me best to receive their return call. Does everyone who's applying for a FAC grant and hasn't had experience with that rifle before have to go through the mentoring condition or is it really dependent on county, FEO etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) Sorry you are having trouble getting through, quite literally all our team are on the phone - it’s that time of year when we get very busy with renewal issues, not helped by the cut backs in funding within the police! If you can’t get through, then leave a message with the best number and time to contact you we will do our best. As you have been correctly told by Billy your mentor does not have to have the same calibre as you. Usually mentoring conditions and the like are only handed out if the alternative would be to refuse to grant Conditions are all but impossible to overturn in Court by the way and there is legal precedent for this, sadly. David Lennie wrote. I told the FEO that I had been brought up shooting. I have owned or used my Fathers air rifles since I was a young boy, I own shotguns and I have shot my Father's .22 rimfire on many occasions. My father-in-law shoots every type of firearm and I have permission to shoot on two farms, a cricket club and go a couple of times a week with air rifle and/or shotgun. cant see him getting a refusal (nor should he ) ( or need a mentor)with this amount of experience. Edited September 21, 2011 by markbivvy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39TDS Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 All that and they said you need a mentor for 2 years? What's that all about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I'm struggling with all this Mentoring Malarkey, I can possibly see the justification when someone new to all this decides to have a pop and wants a deer calibre straight off with no previous history! BUT, I have had to mentor a guy who had an 80ft lb FAC air rifle, and a lot of experience, when he requested a HMR. I have also had to mentor a guy who had a .243, and many years of field experience, but it was fox conditioned, when he asked for deer on it they insisted on a Mentor! From the point of view of the Firearms Dept, and the society we live in, it is simply about covering ones ****! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Does everyone who's applying for a FAC grant and hasn't had experience with that rifle before have to go through the mentoring condition or is it really dependent on county, FEO etc? It depends. I have always tried to show relevant experience before applying for various firearms. I took my DSC1 and did some paid stalking before putting in for larger calibres. I'm late twenties and had FAC couple of years, no mentor for rimfires and no mentor for centrefires including a .308 for deer (open tickets for all in North Yorkshire ). I don't know if anyone gets a formal mentoring condition but if you build yourself a good case then they have no reason to impose one. When I put in for 3 centrefire rifles it seemed at the time I was getting a bit of a grilling why I wanted 3 different calibres and the chap smiled at the end and said he was just making sure I knew what I wanted and why. My reasoning was clearly sufficient. You don't have to bow to their 'suggestions'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 I think the key is that the FEO is new. So he doesn't know his **** from his elbow. Suggest politely taking this up with the Licensing Manager - explain that you've been shooting for years, that this is a 17 HMR, and you find it very difficult to see what a mentor will teach you, since you can already shoot a rimfire safely (since you have been shooting one for years and nobody's dead!). I stress though - put this in a manner of "Are you sure this guy is right, because it seems odd to me" rather than telling them. Even though this chap is clearly wrong. It would be different for me if you had never fired a rifle before - then I think it sensible so long as done right. But in this case (and remember, the law and guidance says licensing must be considered on the individual case's merit) I fail to see how a mentor makes any difference except annoying everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 A mentor for a 17HMR - Seems a bit excessive to me especially as you have explained that you have experience with your father already using different calibres of rifles! As for the "mentoring" lasting for 2 years, where is that coming from - It is my understanding that there is no time limit for mentoring, it is just a case of showing that you are safe, competent and able to shoot your chosen calibre without causing any danger to the general public? I had to have a mentor for my .222 for foxing. The stipulation was that he had to have a rifle of the same calibre or larger and that the condition lasted until he wrote a letter stating that he had been out with me and I had shown that I was able to assertain what was a safe or unsafe shot and that I was able to get positive target identification. The mentoring only lasted for a very short time and involved him coming out in daylight twice (Once while zeroing and showing that I could fire the rifle fairly accurately and once to show him over my permissions to show safe and unsafe shots) and two more times while out with the lamp to show that I could positively identify my "target" safely enough so that I wasn't going to shoot a sheep or a cat or anything not classed as "legal quarry"! I nailed a fox on both of the lamping trips and he was happy so wrote a letter saying so and the condition was lifted straight away. It sounds to me like your "new" FEO is lacking in experience and going a bit over the top trying to cover his ar$e! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 I think we, the shooting classes, and organisations like BASC have to be very wary with this mentoring system. A few years ago no one had ever heard of such a thing. Now it has become the norm. As David BASC said - it is meant to be used where refusal is the only other option. Where is that written down David? It is different county by county. I think their is another side to this. The police are protecting their own backsides. After recent gun incidents and deaths the police came in for a lot of stick. Why was a certificate issued to this character, etc? By using one of us as a 'mentor' they are stepping one pace back from their responsibilities. One of us makes the final decision and advises them that the student is ready to be turned loose on his own. I wonder what the reaction of the police would be following an incident where a 'mentor' has been involved. Who gets the stick? It is a good idea and I mentored Pavman for his centre-fired rifles and was pleased to be of help. The big thing about me deciding to do it was that I know him very well. I wouldn't do it for a casual aquaintance. He/she may be alright out in the field under supervision but what are they like on their own or when impressing their mates etc? Be very careful my friends - I think this one is a ticking time-bomb... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 [quote name='Frenchieboy' timestamp= and he was happy so wrote a letter saying so and the condition was lifted straight away. Just noticed this at the end of your post Frenchieboy - Backs up my comments above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 It is a bit variable I agree, when I first applied I was granted 22 with no problem, but my 30-06 was conditioned on my passing NSCC (the older version of today’s DSC1) The main question is to ask how long you have to be mentored for. After all you don’t want or need to be mentored from now up to your renewal! Much will also depend on EXACTLY what is says on your certificate. If it says you can be mentored by anyone with Sec1 that’s one thing, (as others have found on here) if it says it must be by someone with X years 17hmr experience that’s something else all together! As a member please call us 01244 573010, if you can’t get through leave a message and Anne will get back to you David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Cheers guys for all of your comments (this is why I think Pigeon Watch is the best forum of all shooting forums). My father has to write a letter to the FEO (via Firearms dept.) stating he's happy to be my mentor with his details etc. I was wondering whether to ask my father to reinforce my experience on his letter? Maybe they'll have a re-think and say I already have the relevant experience? It's getting very difficult to get a FAC and, while it shouldn't be easy, I don't think unnecessary obstacles should be put in the way of people with experience and own other guns and licenses already. I was actually saying to my father-in-law that I would rather go on a short course than a two-year mentorship – I'm wondering if that what they want me to say??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 As a member please call us 01244 573010, if you can’t get through leave a message and Anne will get back to you David Hi David Thanks again. I will call today, after I get a few jobs out of the way this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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