410 powder sugestions

[gotgcoalman]

Essentially from what I read earlier in the thread.

Loading a cast .36 ball and a sprinkle of shot is section 2 ammo?

[cervusman]

I have a Remington 1100 410 skeet, so load 1/2oz of 9 shot in Remington and Winchester cases, I use that load for other clays and squirrels in my O/U 410. For pigeon shooting I use 7 shot

[gotgcoalman]

So,off hand shooting 40 yards at 30cm outer circle.

All balls connected and the flyers were wads.

Very few pellets made it down range.I can only assume they became embedded in either the wads or soft cast balls on firing.

No sights at all due to the hushpuppy on the gun. A better group should be achieved with a bead sight.

12.3gr SP3,cx2000 primer,wad column to get the correct  height 3x over powder cards and 2 fibre wads finished off with a rto.

 

[Downforce]

On 16/04/2021 at 19:14, gotgcoalman said:

Very few pellets made it down range.I can only assume they became embedded in either the wads or soft cast balls on firing.

How many of what size pellets/balls did you use? I'm assuming with 8 hits in the circle thats more than one cartridge?

D

[Downforce]

On 13/04/2021 at 17:30, gotgcoalman said:

Essentially from what I read earlier in the thread.

Loading a cast .36 ball and a sprinkle of shot is section 2 ammo?

Well what you said isnt completely correct in all cases, but mostly.

So the law says if you have at least 5 pieces of shot and none of them are larger than 0.36" it's not Section 1 and therefore is Section 2 - but if you only "sprinkled" lightly and had 3x #7 shot and 1x 000 Buck (0.36") that would be classed as being a Section 1 cartridge - Obviously 3x #7 shot and 2x 000 Buck is enough to add up to five so would revert to S2.

At the end of the day where do you stop calling shot shot and start calling it ball - they are all balls aren't they - does it make sense to say 00Buck at 8.4mm is not a ball but 000 Buck at 9.1mm is a ball?

If it's 12G or 16G you could just have 5x 000 Buck (or more), plenty of commercial loads around like that but you cant fit that in a .410 and its too heavy at >20gm to create a good load that doesnt cause too high pressure.

Thats why I was so interested in the Winchester Super X load.

D

[Whiff-of-grape]

Looks like I've found the right thread. I want to reload with Nobel 80 and 82 because that's what I've got. Laying out 45 quid and more for new powder is beyond my cut of the housekeeping. I annealed and fire formed 50 303 cases and sized them down correctly. The rims needed a few thou off the front face to seat properly, so I need some reloading data if anyone would be so kind (and knowledgeable). Obviously the primer is a large rifle size (CCI) and I have cork wads and an appropriate punch for cards. The cases are 2 1/8 inch from front of rim to the mouth. Any information gratefully received.

[Downforce]

4 hours ago, Whiff-of-grape said:

I annealed and fire formed 50 303 cases and sized them down correctly.

Wow ! So what do they look like out of interest? How did you take the rim down? (Does that weaken the case significantly?)

I am learning loads from very knowledgeable folk on here and definitely no expert on powders but what you are creating has been done before as a thing but I don’t know about with that particular powder - I have spoken to people that remember 303 being fired from 410s in NI during the 70s but it would be interesting to see if there’s actual recipes out there.

Very keen to see the responses

D

[Dasher]

The below is from "fourten.org.uk", not sure but some of it may transfer over to 303 cases .............

I am a reloader and have accumulated all kinds of dies and reloading tools. I found that 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 44-40 and .444 Marlin cases all chamber in a .410. 45 Colt cases wouldn't go all the way into the chamber. I decided to use 44 magnum cases and bought some oversize cardboard .410 wads (made for brass .410 cases which I have never found). Using large pistol primers, I loaded 5 grains of Bullseye under the wad. I filled the rest of the case with #12 shot (that's what they use in .22 birdshot loads) and put a thin cardboard wad over the top, then sealed it with Elmers glue thinned with enough water to make it run. It didn't take long to burn up 100 rounds of my 'hopper loads. Light report, no recoil and on the few occasions I connected on a grasshopper - well they just disappeared in a puff of debris. A few unfortunate bumble bees also fell prey to my .410. The only problems I had were that the .44 mag cases were a little undersized and swelled up in the oversized .410 chamber. The rims were also smaller than the 410s and had a tendency to slip over the extractor and jam things up.

I next tried .444 Marlin cases. These are 2 3/16" long, the same length as a crimped 2 ½" .410 shell. I loaded these with 14.0 grains of 2400 powder, the same oversized wads and about ½ ounce of #9 shot. I had the equivalent of a 2 ½" field load that cost only pennies to load. The shells swell a bit and I run them through a .444 resizing die every third reload or so, but they work great. I use large pistol primers in these cases also.

My friend's 5 year old received a small cut down .410 for his birthday and wanted to shoot it. I let him finish up some of the old .44 mag loads I had on hand and he loved them. Mostly pointed it at trees and shot leaves, but for him it was real shooting! But the same problem with the cases slipping over the extractor was still there. He tried one of the .444 Marlin loads, but complained it "kicked" too much. I revisited the 45 Colt cases and noted that they would chamber about half way, then get tight. I found that the 45ACP is a slightly smaller diameter case than the 45 Colt, so I resized a few in my 45ACP die and found they fit the .410 perfectly plus the larger rim doesn't slip over the extractor.

My next load for little Jimmy will be the same as in .44 mag cases, but in the 45 Colt cases, with a little more shot as the case capacity is slightly larger.

My .410 shotguns get a lot more use with these inexpensive loads. I haven't found the equivalent of a 3" load yet, but some plastic shot capsules loaded in the .444 Marlin cases should work.
I must include this warning!! These loads are experimental and not recommended for all .410 shotguns, especially older models which may have excess headspace. I don't have the means to measure chamber pressures but pressures appear to be nominal as the shot charge is fluid and doesn't offer much resistance in the barrel. Also, the cardboard wads do not seal the burning powder perfectly and I am sure there is some blow-by which keeps the pressures lower than with a plastic wad. However, if you want perfection buy commercial ammo!!
Ron.

[Dasher]

More from "fourten.org.uk"......

 

Method for reforming and reloading .410 brass cases from .303 British

Ed Harris (ke4sky@att.net )
 

http://www.fourten.org.uk/brass303.jpg

Over the years I've tried most of the methods for reforming common available rifle brass into workable .410 cases. While .444 Marlin has the correct base diameter, it is neither plentiful nor cheap, and its rim diameter is too small so that it often falls off the extractor. Brass for the .303 British is both plentiful and cheap here in the US, and can be easily reformed to make suitable, if somewhat short .410 cases which permit normal 2-1/2", 1/2 oz. shot charges, buck & ball or buckshot/roundball loads. I recommend starting with either new or once-fired commercial brass. Military cases have a harder anneal and are more prone to mouth splits unless you reanneal them first. Best is if you have an RCBS .35 Brown-Whelan expander die. This has a long gentle taper from .30 caliber to .40 intended to expand .30-'06 cases to .40 in one pass, which is necessary to form a new shoulder farther forward than the original, to headspace them for wildcat fire-forming. If you have one of these, inside neck lube your brass with lanolin or lithium wheel bearing grease and gently neck up your cases from .30 to .375 in about 3 separate stages. If the mouths split, then you need to mouth anneal cases before starting and/or do the reforming process in more gradual stages. Another expedient method is to buy Lee .38-56 Winchester dies, which are relatively inexpensive, being made for the Cowboy action shooters. First remove the decapping stem and either lathe turn or taper the expander plug portion with a file in the drill press, to produce a gradual taper which will enter the .303 case mouth easily and enlarge to the full .375" diameter over a distance of about 3/4", leaving only a slight cylindrical portion at the top. This works like the Brown-Whelan expander, but makes .375 Flanged cases instead. Prime and load these with a fire-forming charge of 12 to 13 grs. of #2400, with a ball of newspaper wadding pushed firmly onto the power charge with a wooden dowel, then fill the case with any available small shot up to the mouth and place a 000 buckshot or cast .375 round ball on top. Crimping is done using the .38-56 seater die, but first you need to substutute insert a Lyman or RCBS lubricator-sizer top punch for a blunt roundnosed .45 bullet for the seater plug in the die. Tighten the seater plug to bottom the shoulder of the cast bullet top punch against the interior shoulder of the .38-56 seater die. This results in a nearly flush seated, nicely radiussed heavy crimp which results in perfect fire-forming. The rounds look almost factory quality. Since the .303 brass is a bit small at the base, before fire forming take two wraps of ordinary paper masking tape around the base to take up the excess space, and to center the fire-forming round in the chamber. This ensures that the case body will expand evenly all the way around, instead of possibly leaning off-center on just one side. Once the case has been fired, you can remove the tape, because the expanded body will center itself in future firings. Reload fire-formed cases using .444 Marlin dies with the .303 shell holder. After fire-forming you can use Ox Yoke Originals .44-45 felt wads sold for cap & ball revolvers. Be sure to change the roundnosed cast bullet top punch over to your .444 seater to use there after you have fire formed the cases. The buck&ball loads are quite effective against coyotes and similar varmints. The 2.25" long case will accept FOUR 000 buck or .375 round balls over an Ox Yoke wad and 13 grains of #2400, crimping the last one in the end. This makes an authoritative and deadly load which much greater killing power than the anemic .410 slug. Warning: This site has NO responsibility for any reloading data submitted by contributors. Reloading, and associated safety procedures, are YOUR responsibility.

 

 

[Whiff-of-grape]

4 hours ago, Downforce said:

Wow ! So what do they look like out of interest? How did you take the rim down? (Does that weaken the case significantly?)

I am learning loads from very knowledgeable folk on here and definitely no expert on powders but what you are creating has been done before as a thing but I don’t know about with that particular powder - I have spoken to people that remember 303 being fired from 410s in NI during the 70s but it would be interesting to see if there’s actual recipes out there.

Very keen to see the responses

D

I fire formed by loading a goodly charge of powder followed by a wad and filler and topped off with a .312 lead ball. I shot them through a 410 sub calibre insert in my 12b. Out of 53 cases I got 50 useable ones. The cases taper slightly from the rim end then the front half is parallel and matches the chamber. To thin down the rim, I grip the case in a close fitting piece of stainless tube that I slit down the side. This prevents the case being deformed by the lathe chuck jaws. I leave about an inch sticking out and reduce the rim to about half thickness with a carbide tool, machining from the front of the rim. The body of the case is not reduced. I've put a sizing die down the case and they slide easily into my 410 chamber. If doing this, it is important to anneal the cases before loading and fire forming. Heat to cherry red and quench in cold water. Fully dry the cases before reloading. I'll post more once I find  safe load for the powders quoted.

[Whiff-of-grape]

20 hours ago, Dasher said:

45 Colt cases wouldn't go all the way into the chamber.

I picked up some 45LC shotshells with aluminium cases, so I tried them in the 410. Like you, I found they would not fully chamber so I put a 45ACP sizing die down them which cured the problem. They fire and eject OK but being Blaser cases, there is a bar across the primer hole. They will do until I  can get the 303 cases loaded.