Muntjac with 22cf`s....What bullet ?

[al4x]

We rely on bullet manufacturers very heavily to produce many types of match and expanding products. They TEST consistency not just once, but many times throughout production cycles to maintain desired standards on all types of projectile. Here we see an expansion test on various deer bullets and just remember this, Hornady(who's bullet this is) is one of the largest bullet manufacturers in the world and receive a lot of feedback on what is working and what isnt. I didnt get a photo as it would be unreresentative but throughout the offices in tha factory, about the only animal I didnt see stuffed and mounted on a wall was an elephant and that may be due only to size. These guys have been there, seen it and done it themselves from Aardvark to Zebra, they know what they are doing and I am happy to trust their advice, they make millions!

 

seeing as one of the posts thats not tripe on here got ignored its worth assuming that none of the Hornady DEER bullets shown are A max?

[Ackley]

The only useful piece of evidence you have actually posted throughout this 12-page (so far!) thread is the BCs for Berger 52

grain bullets.

 

 

 

really,for someone who thinks there so clever you have a bad memory

1. all A max are made the same not as you say the 52gr are made diferently

2. you can see the difference between Berger match and varmint bullet,again showing you have never used or seen them

3. meat damage is mainly caused by the wrong bullet length to the twist its being fired from

Iam sure there are more points but Iam getting bored keep showing your wrong

 

 

 

 

You have said that my pointing out your very poor grasp of English is not offending you. Now you say I am insulting you. Which is it please?

 

 

as I have said if you wish to keep throwing insults lets do the job right face to face

 

 

 

If you don't acknowledge the part sectional density plays in penetration, that's up to you. Plenty of normal, knowledgeable people do, however, so I won't worry too much.

 

 

yes i do acknowlage sectional density but if I bullet isnt designed to expand what is the point of using it,I have posted 2 links which expalins all about meat damge and SD,obvioulsy you dont really understand what your on about,I can give you more if you wish,if it helps,this is from an expert http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm

 

 

 

 

We've been round this in circles, with you shooting down everything I say. You allege that you used to use match bullets on deer and don't any more, but we haven't heard anything of the effects of those bullets. I have used match bullets on deer and I have told of their effects.

 

I base my recommendations and my practice on verified fact, preferably verified by me.

 

I have used match bullets in many calibers and seen there effects 222,223,22.250,243,243AI,6.5x55,308,30.06,270wsm,300wsm,7mmwsm,6x47,6.5x476mm BR,260AI, all I have either shot or been with at the time when shot at deer or vermin,all calibers listed I have personally reloaded for,so you could say Ive been around the block,the effects were different in each caliber which its going to be a 222 with a 52gr A max is going to show totally different results to a 180gr Amax in as 300 wsm.I have seen match bullets drop deer on the spot Ive also seen them run.Ive seen neck shots which the bullet has fragmentated in the chest and ruined the meat,Ive seen bullets urn and exit out there back side,Ive seen bullets breakup on the shoulder,at the end of the day all the mess ups has been with match bullets,hence why I dont use them anymore,yes somepeople get good results BUT how many deer are they shooting ? 1 or 2 I dont know but the guys who shoot a lot will sooner or later get problems

 

 

If a manufacturer says a given bullet doesn't work on something then fine. Originally I used the 52 A-max because it DOES say it expands well and the quarry was fox and rabbit. In those tests both quarry died very fast and humanely but the expansion was consistently not as severe as other varmint bullets, which is why I tried them with success on muntjac.

 

I carried this through with the 30 cal but that one didn't work. Which leads me to my original assertion that they are OK on munties in a 52-grain form, but not on the bigger deer in a bigger form.

 

 

match bullet will work on any vermin as there thin skinned and any sort of trauma will kill it,deer are different iys no good shooting a bullet that isnt intended to expand or penerate into the vitals,you may as well throw stones at them

 

 

Thus far you have bleated on about FAC conditions, which is utter hogwash and simply because you can't read a simple sentence in English. The rest of your posts (berger BC excepted) have simply been bleating about how I'm (and NJC presumably, since he uses these bullets too) unethical. Not a single test or piece of info to back this up.

 

So I'm bored. Provide evidence, or shut up.

 

 

with regards to FAC condition,if we wasnt to use expanding ammo on animals we wouldnt be given the condition,as i have said ask for your coindition to be removed and see if you still have the condition to shoot deer and vermin,seems you wont step up to that one,

I wish people would use the correct bullet for the job in hand,its not a difficult thing to do,I dare put money on the table that if anyone called there FEO,and told them they were using match ammo on deer they would be in bother

look you do what makes you happy but dont go telling others its the right thing to do,when obvioulsy it isnt

Ive been there and done it and some,I found out the hard way

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would have put my replies in a diffrent colour to make it easier for you but I couldnt work out how to do it

Edited December 31, 2011 by Ackley

[njc110381]

I've taken in everything fister wrote. He's one of the members here that I really do respect.

 

When we talk of Deer it's almost hard to include the little Munty. Of course the A-Max may not be suitable for larger Deer - I don't know because I've never used them on the larger species but for small quarry they work just fine.

 

I wonder how many of the posters who are having a dig have actually tried these bullets? We keep getting told that we don't want to be given info passed on from "a friend of a friend's great uncle" so as I see it having used them more than a few times with no failures gives me the right to have an opinion?

 

The funniest thing I have noticed is that there are loads of members here who use the A-Max that haven't even posted on this topic. I'm not at all surprised - they can't be ***** with the **** that goes with it.

[CharlieT]

Neil

 

The funniest thing I have noticed is that there are loads of members here who use the A-Max that haven't even posted on this topic. I'm not at all surprised - they can't be ***** with the **** that goes with it.

 

 

Of course, one could also make the presumption that they know it's the wrong thing to do and don't want to shout about it

[njc110381]

Who asked you anyway?!

[Ackley]

Neil

 

 

 

 

Of course, one could also make the presumption that they know it's the wrong thing to do and don't want to shout about it

exactly,if your going to use them "dont shout about it" I know people who use them for gods sake but somethings are best kept between freinds

[njc110381]

exactly,if your going to use them "dont shout about it" I know people who use them for gods sake but somethings are best kept between freinds

 

 

You could have said that 13 pages ago!

[Ackley]

You could have said that 13 pages ago!

I did and always have

post 11 and 16

Edited December 31, 2011 by Ackley

[Mr_Logic]

Ackley, you said:

 

1. all A max are made the same not as you say the 52gr are made diferently

2. you can see the difference between Berger match and varmint bullet,again showing you have never used or seen them

3. meat damage is mainly caused by the wrong bullet length to the twist its being fired from

Iam sure there are more points but Iam getting bored keep showing your wrong

 

In response:

 

1. I have never said that, but I have said there is a different relative jacket thickness on the 52 Amax. I can't explain otherwise why the lower SD bullet with the same tip and hollow cavity construction will expand less violently than the 178 30 cal bullet, when the 52 is driven considerably quicker.

 

2. I have used the varmint 52gr, I have a half-used box downstairs. I've not used the match version; I see no point when I can beat the BC and also get the benefit of reliable expansion with the A-max, all while paying less. My match stuff needs a much higher BC because it needs to go a hell of a lot further than the 52s can manage.

 

3. This is plainly wrong. Assuming the bullet is actually stable, this is simply not a massive factor. If the bullet is unstable, then yes the lack of stability induces yaw etc which then contribute to the bullet doing strange things rather than sailing on through. This was what meant that originally the 5.56 NATO did OK on the terminal ballistics front - 55gr bullet from a 14 twist = limited stability. I've seen it myself from the .222 with a 55gr projectile.

 

However, it is simply NOT the cause of meat damage in almost all cases.

 

 

You also said:

 

---

with regards to FAC condition,if we wasnt to use expanding ammo on animals we wouldnt be given the condition,as i have said ask for your coindition to be removed and see if you still have the condition to shoot deer and vermin,seems you wont step up to that one,

I wish people would use the correct bullet for the job in hand,its not a difficult thing to do,I dare put money on the table that if anyone called there FEO,and told them they were using match ammo on deer they would be in bother

look you do what makes you happy but dont go telling others its the right thing to do,when obvioulsy it isnt

Ive been there and done it and some,I found out the hard way

---

 

I will mention the fact next time I see my FEO - it's perfectly legal and works well so there is no harm. The condition is a standard one, and since I will generally have section 5 bullets for any hunting tool, I have no intention of removing it. However, as I pointed out before, the condition does not affect the use of match ammo on deer; this is governed solely by the Deer Act.

 

I haven't ever said that it is the right or the wrong thing. I've said that it's legal, because it is, and that it worked for me, because it has. If someone doesn't want to use the A-max on a deer, I am not going to argue with them. If they do, I will caution that it is likely to be quite destructive, and that it's a bad idea on anything bigger than roe where penetration is very important.

 

I am not going to debate whether it is RIGHT to use the a-max, but I am going to correct anyone who says that, in England, it's illegal. I also cannot tolerate your flagrant rubbish on an open forum, simply because plenty of people will get the wrong idea and then regurgitate your tripe elsewhere.

[Redgum]

Shame I have never used Amax as I love a good PW slagging match

 

Happy Newyear ta ya all.

[gixer1]

no matter what i post its never good enougfh is it,you have a serious problem mate when adults are trying to have a conversation,didnt you know children should be seen and not heard

anyway if you can read these may keep you off this thread of a while,you never know you may learn something

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/terminal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics

again prooving that "you" need to use the correct bullet for the job your doing match bullets are not suitable for hunting

 

Ackley,

 

It's nothing to do with not being good enough, it's your arrogant attitude and the fact that you try to put others down when you are proven wrong by others as you seem to have your nose out of joint....

 

As for your child comment - its a shame you aren't closer so we could discuss this face to face since you seem so sure of yourself ....

 

As usual an interesting thread ruined again when you get involved....as Neil said - most of us have backed up why we say with what we have done, you seem to just be able to quote web pages...my son could probably do that

 

Anyway, happy new year, I'm going to get a drink!

 

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,

and never brought to mind ?

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,

and auld lang syne* ?

Edited December 31, 2011 by gixer1

[Redgum]

Ackley,

 

It's nothing to do with not being good enough, it's your arrogant attitude and the fact that you try to put others down when you are proven wrong by others as you seem to have your nose out of joint....

 

As for your child comment - its a shame you aren't closer so we could discuss this face to face since you seem so sure of yourself ....

 

As usual an interesting thread ruined again when you get involved....as Neil said - most of us have backed up why we say with what we have done, you seem to just be able to quote web pages...my son could probably do that

 

Anyway, happy new year, I'm going to get a drink!

 

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,

and never brought to mind ?

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,

and auld lang syne* ?

Must be the time of the month

[cockercas]

i agree with ackley. pick the right bullet for the job in hand. i used to think ackley was an arrogant cock but i changed my mind reading his replys on other topics. like now other members have taken to insulting the bloke. i got board reading others posts and just scrolled down reading ackleys posts

[Mr_Logic]

If I were you, I'd read some fact and not his pointless guff.

[Ackley]

If I were you, I'd read some fact and not his pointless guff.

you carry on sunshine

[Mr_Logic]

Lalalalalalalalala ...

[cockercas]

mr_logic. ackely is the one who has been backing his side of the debate up. with links ect i got board reading the same 'guff' you and a couple of other members kept posting. if plod stoped you, and new a little bit about deer stalking. mabey hes intrested in getting involved in stalking, and the topic of what gun/ammo you have used to kill the deer thats in the boot of your car comes up. saying oh i used xxxxx gun and A-max target ammo is going to get you on the end of some serious questions. yes its a grey area in the law but with HO ruling that A-max is target ammo and not sec 5 expanding il let you stand in court argue it out. and if u do it might just clear this little grey area up.

[jamie g]

happy new year everyone

[Mr_Logic]

mr_logic. ackely is the one who has been backing his side of the debate up. with links ect i got board reading the same 'guff' you and a couple of other members kept posting. if plod stoped you, and new a little bit about deer stalking. mabey hes intrested in getting involved in stalking, and the topic of what gun/ammo you have used to kill the deer thats in the boot of your car comes up. saying oh i used xxxxx gun and A-max target ammo is going to get you on the end of some serious questions. yes its a grey area in the law but with HO ruling that A-max is target ammo and not sec 5 expanding il let you stand in court argue it out. and if u do it might just clear this little grey area up.

Ackley has not given anything useful!

 

Simply put, from a legal perspective, THE CLASSIFICATION OF A BULLET IS IRRELEVANT WHEN SHOOTING DEER. It's in big letters because I don't know how to say it more plainly.

 

i've provided the LAW, and the WORDING. We've established already that Ackley's FAC condition argument is incorrect and based on error understanding the words.

 

Now, how exactly can you argue I've not provided evidence to back up my findings? No relevant evidence has been provided to show a-max is illegal at this time. That is my Issue here - people saying something is illegal and morally wrong, when we have clearly shown it is perfectly legal and in some circumstances a very good idea!

[Ackley]

If I were you, I'd read some fact and not his pointless guff.

 

the facts are in the links,written and tested by experts and not someone whos sitting at his keyboard that may shoot the odd deer here and there spouting "its works for me so it OK to use Ive tested it"

got news for you mate you aint tested nothing,you have been lucky Ive shot more match ammo at deer then you can imagaine,I burnt 2 barrel outs testing different bullets,sometimes it will work and sometimes it wont,there is no repeatable performance unlike using a proper expanding bullet

so Mr Logic whats the facts ?? you have shot a munty with a 52 a max and it died,cant dispute that as it would if hit correctly,Ive shot deer with 168gr A max they dies too,does it make it right to use a match bullet that isnt designed to expand or penerate,you seem so keen to bring sectional density into the deabte but you done really undrstand it yourself,or you would use a bullet that isnt designed to penerate,

here you go an real experts veiw http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm hes knows more about the job than you or I ever will

Ive shot 150gr Nosler Ballistic tips which have split deer in two,WHY ?? as there a proper expanding hunting bullet, there not a varmint bullet which break up.

I will tell you MR Logic,they were running too fast hence prooving velocity does cause meat damage,the only time they didnt destroy the meat was past 400 yards as the bullet was slowing down

but what do I know Ive never done any shooting have I.

[Ackley]

Ackley has not given anything useful!

 

Simply put, from a legal perspective, THE CLASSIFICATION OF A BULLET IS IRRELEVANT WHEN SHOOTING DEER. It's in big letters because I don't know how to say it more plainly.

 

i've provided the LAW, and the WORDING. We've established already that Ackley's FAC condition argument is incorrect and based on error understanding the words.

 

Now, how exactly can you argue I've not provided evidence to back up my findings? No relevant evidence has been provided to show a-max is illegal at this time. That is my Issue here - people saying something is illegal and morally wrong, when we have clearly shown it is perfectly legal and in some circumstances a very good idea!

 

Mmmmmmmmmmm but you still wont call your FEO and ask for the condition to aquire expaning ammo to be removed from your FAC as you damm right know the condition to shoot deer and vermin will also be removed,WHY if you so confident its legal

tell you what give me your FEOs number and I will call for you

[Mr_Logic]

Mmmmmmmmmmm but you still wont call your FEO and ask for the condition to aquire expaning ammo to be removed from your FAC as you damm right know the condition to shoot deer and vermin will also be removed,WHY if you so confident its legal

tell you what give me your FEOs number and I will call for you

As I keep saying, this is utterly irrelevant. Why do you keep jabbering on about it?

[Mr_Logic]

the facts are in the links,written and tested by experts and not someone whos sitting at his keyboard that may shoot the odd deer here and there spouting "its works for me so it OK to use Ive tested it"

got news for you mate you aint tested nothing,you have been lucky Ive shot more match ammo at deer then you can imagaine,I burnt 2 barrel outs testing different bullets,sometimes it will work and sometimes it wont,there is no repeatable performance unlike using a proper expanding bullet

so Mr Logic whats the facts ?? you have shot a munty with a 52 a max and it died,cant dispute that as it would if hit correctly,Ive shot deer with 168gr A max they dies too,does it make it right to use a match bullet that isnt designed to expand or penerate,you seem so keen to bring sectional density into the deabte but you done really undrstand it yourself,or you would use a bullet that isnt designed to penerate,

here you go an real experts veiw http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm hes knows more about the job than you or I ever will

Ive shot 150gr Nosler Ballistic tips which have split deer in two,WHY ?? as there a proper expanding hunting bullet, there not a varmint bullet which break up.

I will tell you MR Logic,they were running too fast hence prooving velocity does cause meat damage,the only time they didnt destroy the meat was past 400 yards as the bullet was slowing down

but what do I know Ive never done any shooting have I.

From that article:

 

"SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration"

 

My point was that an a-max bullet with a higher SD than an A-max bullet with a lower SD would penetrate better. I.e. a long, thus heavy, 6mm bullet with higher SD would penetrate better. Therefore, it was worth a go; this quote rather backs that up, wouldn't you say?

 

You say about 150gr Noslers splitting a deer in two, and then say that hunting bullets are completely reliable. They're clearly not - no bullet type is.

 

Ultimately meat damage is a combination of many factors. I have never denied velocity is one of them - it's very important indeed. I HAVE denied that twist rate, in all but a tiny number of cases, has any effect.

 

I've shot quite a few with the 52 A-max, and they work nicely. Also numerous foxes and rabbits; the expansion level has been very consistent. Has anyone actually come out and said they've shot a 52 A-max at muntjac WITHOUT getting good results? Plenty, such as yourself, say we're evil because it doesn't say Muntjac-suitable on the box, but I don't recall anyone actually having problems that's gone out and done it.

 

I also doubt Hornady would publicise the use of A-max on deer if they're sooo terrible.

 

However, I don't want to argue about whether they are SUITABLE; there is no point, we will never agree so let's leave it.

 

I DO want you to concede that they are LEGAL, irrespective of whether or not you AGREE with their being legal.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Mr_Logic

[Ackley]

As I keep saying, this is utterly irrelevant. Why do you keep jabbering on about it?

because the simple "fact" is if youn havnt got the condition on your FAC to auqire expanding ammo you wont have the condition to shoot deer or vermin,the two conditions go hand in hand thus prooving we have to shoot expaning at live animals

if you have just a target condition on your FAC you cannot shoot animals of any kind

hence call your FEO seeing you feel so strong A max is legal and have the condition removed,this will proove my point which is a "fact" which you seem to go on about so much

as i said i will call you firearms dept myself and ask them there take on match ammo send me the number or an e mail address,this will put an end to your ramblings

as someone said to me put up or shut up

[cockercas]

ive e-mailed basc. il post the reply when it comes