roughshooter Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Post abandoned Edited February 12, 2012 by roughshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 The lone green flake looks like Vectan A1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankeedoodlepigeon Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Coke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) The powder closely resembles the old 'Smokeless Diamond' from many years ago. Edited February 12, 2012 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Looks a bit like 'Unique' Useful powder picture database here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/150413-photographic-database-gunpowders-uruguay.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Not sure but I wouldn't have thought trying to identify a salvaged powder by posting pics of it on the internet is the greatest idea. Unless it's just out of curiosity not because you plan to use it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) i wouldnt try identifying it by its looks, there are about 5-6 powders that look the same. you cant guess the powder, really. i advise you to ditch it, cook. Edited February 12, 2012 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) i wouldnt try identifying it by its looks, there are about 5-6 powders that look the same. you cant guess the powder, really. i advise you to ditch it, cook. There's a story behind this, I read it on the Wildfowling forum Edited February 12, 2012 by nabbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 There's a story behind this, I read it on the Wildfowling forum Where's the link then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Put it this way, unless you buy your powder in new sealed tubs, you don't know for certain what you are buying and when you have reloaded a good batch of cartridges and then realised the powder might not be, what it was claimed to be, then you have a dilemma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Roughshooter Make a burn gauge by routering a tuning fork shape in a piece of hard wood (much better if you can mill it out of steel )then use a known powder in one leg the new powder in the other and test .Then start with 1 oz of lead and 20 grains of powder (only after the burn test) every one runs scared of unknown powder I have been using unknown powder for years with load developments I have never blown up a gun or had a dangerous load Deershooter :good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Roughshooter Make a burn gauge by routering a tuning fork shape in a piece of hard wood (much better if you can mill it out of steel )then use a known powder in one leg the new powder in the other and test .Then start with 1 oz of lead and 20 grains of powder (only after the burn test) every one runs scared of unknown powder I have been using unknown powder for years with load developments I have never blown up a gun or had a dangerous load Deershooter :good: That's why I lurk on these forums, learn something every day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK fowler Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 still say its 381/380 thats been cross contaminated with vectan at the gamebore factory and has gone out the back door as offcuts not for resale thats a good clear photo and it is spot on for alliant powders but at the end of the day it was rejected for a reason and I would think safety first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Roughshooter Make a burn gauge by routering a tuning fork shape in a piece of hard wood (much better if you can mill it out of steel )then use a known powder in one leg the new powder in the other and test .Then start with 1 oz of lead and 20 grains of powder (only after the burn test) every one runs scared of unknown powder I have been using unknown powder for years with load developments I have never blown up a gun or had a dangerous load Deershooter :good: The 'test' you've described is unscientific and potentially misleading. Modern single or double based small arms propellant is only designed to perform properly when confined in a firearm chamber, with a predicable and measurable pressure curve. The grain size and shape, surface inhibitors and whether or not it is progressive, constant burning or regressive are all designed with this in mind. Burn it in the open and it will burn sporadically and almost certainly not in the way it was designed to do in a gun barrel. I say this from having some professional involvement in propellant testing in a former life (albeit with much bigger calibres than 12g). Saying you've not blown up a gun - yet, is hardly a recommendation is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) It might be unscientific but never seen a powder burn sporadically dont forget you have a test load burning alongside it Do you think they invent a new powder and only then load it in to a shell and test it ,never its burnt in open atmosphere first Grantham had one of the largest ammunition manufacturers in Europe (MARCOS) and I have friends who used to work there one still has all his documentation from the powder testing. (did you know that 3 inch artillery shells use a propellant of a similar burn rate to Alliant reloader 7 now who would have one of them they dont want? wonder if they did cutoffs ? Its all about safety as long as you dont use the fastest powder in the world and only 1 oz of lead to start with you should never blow your gun up just be sensible and dont overload Deershooter Edited February 12, 2012 by deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 It might be unscientific but never seen a powder burn sporadically dont forget you have a test load burning alongside it Do you think they invent a new powder and only then load it in to a shell and test it ,never its burnt in open atmosphere first Grantham had one of the largest ammunition manufacturers in Europe (MARCOS) and I have friends who used to work there one still has all his documentation from the powder testing. (did you know that 3 inch artillery shells use a propellant of a similar burn rate to Alliant reloader 7 now who would have one of them they dont want? wonder if they did cutoffs ? Its all about safety as long as you dont use the fastest powder in the world and only 1 oz of lead to start with you should never blow your gun up just be sensible and dont overload Deershooter threads like this really annoy me. powders arnt just invented and then used willy nilly. when they are manufactured the nitroglycerine content is calculated. then assayed to confirm this. burning stuff isnt the best way of calculating stuff. it just burns. burning stuff in the open is a million miles away from burning it at 14000psi. both powders, such as hodgdon clays and longshot can both shoot 32g lead loads. but they are not even anywhere near the same. in the burn rate chart, they are about 100 places apart. why would you load a unknown powder? thats just f`d up. and saying its 381 is misleading too. there is about 5 powders that look the same, i bet they didnt tell you what was originally loaded into the hulls (shot and weight). it is all about safety, of those loading and those stood 3ft behind the shooter. there are fast powders that produce high pressure even with 1oz loads, just destroy the lot. i`m still freaked out by the single flake of "other" powder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) cookoff13 "What freaks you out about the single flake of other powder" ? do you think it would make a round dangerous ? have you never had sex with out a condom, drove at 31 mph, or even ate a pork pie a day past its sell by date Some one has to develop the "published loads that you use " have you ever checked all the data yourself" as at least one .410 load published by clay game is 100 bar over pressure using CSBO with 19 grams of shot I take it that you have never loaded by using cut offs, lots of us on here have and for a number of years with no problem I am not advising people with little knowledge try this first off, but Roughshooter has enough experience to work this thing out Deershooter Edited February 12, 2012 by deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 By putting Hodgson clays and universal on my burn gauge you can easily tell that clays is a super fast powder its not rocket science I have never experienced a fast powder to burn slower than a known slow one Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) But, with all due respect, burning in air is not the same as burning under pressure. Edited February 12, 2012 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 I fully understand it well burn different under pressure but the burn test will let you know weather its a fast powder or a slow powder if you use a test of something like Vecton AS this will give you a comparison Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughshooter Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) I have loaded some very successful steel shells with this powder in both 12g and 10g - with what seems like a good velocity, clean burn, better than factory pattern and reasonabble velocity. The data I have for CSBO and some of the Alliant powders is not dissimilar - I will use the powder but would like to know for sure what it is - just for personal knowledge and peace of mind. I know what weight of powder was used with 3 1/2" 12g. 70mm 20g with ITM and can backtrack and make up a safe load. The 10g loads I have made have successfully killed geese and have burnt better than Bluedot and some of the other powders. I did not particularly want to publish the photo - I messaged FC as he is familaiar with a lot of powders and he asked me to publish it. We all know that we have to be careful when loading and if I could have had a little clarity then that would have be great but as it is then I will get some of these carts that I have loaded tested to asscertain pressures and velocity. By the way the odd flake of powder is not from the factory loads but from the container. There is no contamination of the powder I do not recommend any one loads with an unknown powder Regards Graham Edited February 12, 2012 by roughshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 cookoff13 "What freaks you out about the single flake of other powder" ? do you think it would make a round dangerous ? have you never had sex with out a condom, drove at 31 mph, or even ate a pork pie a day past its sell by date Some one has to develop the "published loads that you use " have you ever checked all the data yourself" as at least one .410 load published by clay game is 100 bar over pressure using CSBO with 19 grams of shot I take it that you have never loaded by using cut offs, lots of us on here have and for a number of years with no problem I am not advising people with little knowledge try this first off, but Roughshooter has enough experience to work this thing out Deershooter well, apart from the other flake, it just makes me think, what other powders are mixed in. we wouldnt of seen that odd flake if it had been identical to the main powder, clays and steel look the same, so does TEO, and 381, and a few others. who`s not to say they are mixed in to? we just cant say. the "someone" who has to develop a published load should be aware that mixed powders are dangerous and not ideal for "development". infact on the clay and game cd there are a few loads that shouldnt even be published, one being over 14kpsi, thats not funny, some idiot is going to trust that. no i have never loaded with cutoffs, i cant see the point. i buy a lb of whatever i want to shoot. its silly getting a powder cheap then trying to find or develop a load. the first stop of development should be the proof house. thats what its there for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 another thing came to mind, why were the original shells rejected? it could be as simple, they could just recoil too much. or they could be just over pressure. so taking the load data from weighing the powders isnt ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 another thing came to mind, why were the original shells rejected? it could be as simple, they could just recoil too much. or they could be just over pressure. so taking the load data from weighing the powders isnt ideal. Or the printing was Kr@p. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner269 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Pour oil on it and then bin it, it'll be much safer for you and everyone around you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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