njc110381 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 For the record i shoot a short barreled CZ Varmint that i bought used, a very old Parker hale moderator and a 6x42 S+Bender scope. Wow, that's almost identical to my rig - same gun (cost me £150), 6X42 Docter scope, JLS mod that looks just like a PH! If I was starting out looking now and was on a budget I'd buy another CZ for certain. Nothing from the American market matches them for price and reliability. An old Brno will be just as good. Get one with a short barrel as there's no advantage to a longer one if using a scope. The powder is burned inside about 12" and a short barrel is more rigid so potentially more accurate too. Mine's 16" which I find about right, although 14" wouldn't hurt. The only thing I would suggest if looking for a really cheap gun is to make sure you can get magazines for them. Guns like the old BSA Sportsman 5 shoot just as well as any other but if you lose the mag you're stuck unless you're lucky enough to find one used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bala Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 BRNO Model 2. Very cheap, very accurate, very reliable. I believe the later CZ are just as good. +1 cz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Wow, that's almost identical to my rig - same gun (cost me £150), 6X42 Docter scope, JLS mod that looks just like a PH! If I was starting out looking now and was on a budget I'd buy another CZ for certain. Nothing from the American market matches them for price and reliability. An old Brno will be just as good. Get one with a short barrel as there's no advantage to a longer one if using a scope. The powder is burned inside about 12" and a short barrel is more rigid so potentially more accurate too. Mine's 16" which I find about right, although 14" wouldn't hurt. The only thing I would suggest if looking for a really cheap gun is to make sure you can get magazines for them. Guns like the old BSA Sportsman 5 shoot just as well as any other but if you lose the mag you're stuck unless you're lucky enough to find one used. Yep i paid exactly the same price - it was mint and i bought it when the HMR thing first took off, dealers were full of great LR's at the time. The point about the mags is very good- have a look at the costs of mags as well as the availability, loosing a CZ mag is no great biggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Yep i paid exactly the same price - it was mint and i bought it when the HMR thing first took off, dealers were full of great LR's at the time. The point about the mags is very good- have a look at the costs of mags as well as the availability, loosing a CZ mag is no great biggy Yes indeed. Spare mag for an HW is £50. A mate has an old Beeza Sportsman. Its older than I am and shoots sweet as a nut. Edited February 19, 2012 by Gimlet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Distance is the deciding factor. 50 yards or less, standard 22LR semi + subbies. 75 yards or less, 22LR custom semi or standard bolt action both using subbies. Over 75 yards 22LR bolt action using HV rounds or 17HMR bolt action. Over 90 yards 17HMR. Over 150 yards 17 Hornet or similar. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerstalkerlunt Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I have had both a semi Ruger (10/22) and my current .22 a CZ silhouette bolt action. I loved plinking away at rabbits with the semi but even with a moderator and subs, the action cycling makes a loud noise which at night seems to amplify and echo around scaring any rabbits in the vicinity. So I swapped it for the CZ which is extremely quiet with a SAK moderator on, I definitely have a higher success rate with the CZ due to lower noise levels also they are better built than rugers. I had a lot of issues with my ruger close to the end but that was due to the cocking level spring being ******** after like 2000 rounds. I am starting to look into acquiring a .17 hmr but I have been put off up to now due to ammunition prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmoo Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Distance is the deciding factor. 50 yards or less, standard 22LR semi + subbies. 75 yards or less, 22LR custom semi or standard bolt action both using subbies. Over 75 yards 22LR bolt action using HV rounds or 17HMR bolt action. Over 90 yards 17HMR. Over 150 yards 17 Hornet or similar. A I should think for now a .22lr would be more than ample distance wise, I can usually crawl to within 60yds no problem, its the last 20 to get in air rifle range that is the hard bit. When I find that most of my work starts to be out of .22lr range, perhaps a 17hmr would be the next option. I think I will probably apply for both, dont mean I have to get both. I will start with the .22lr and see how that pans out. I have used them in the past and it must be one of the best calibers ever invented, silent, hits with a fair punch and cheap as chips, i am aware of the odd down side, but your going to get pros and cons with any caliber. Rick O'sheas are not an issue for me, I would never take a shot that aint got a back stop and a good 300m fall out left and right, I'm lucky have the room and land to allow this. Bring on the FAC and lets go shopping. Schmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Distance is the deciding factor. 50 yards or less, standard 22LR semi + subbies. 75 yards or less, 22LR custom semi or standard bolt action both using subbies. Over 75 yards 22LR bolt action using HV rounds or 17HMR bolt action. Over 90 yards 17HMR. Over 150 yards 17 Hornet or similar. A That seems a lot of guns and different ammo just to get to 100yds I am sure you didn't mean it that way though I just fail to get the whole HV thing though, they shoot poop at 100 compared to hows the subs will group are more noisy and its easy enough to "learn to shoot" subs this far via hold over- chest shooting as and were required by the individual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I should think for now a .22lr would be more than ample distance wise, I can usually crawl to within 60yds no problem, its the last 20 to get in air rifle range that is the hard bit. When I find that most of my work starts to be out of .22lr range, perhaps a 17hmr would be the next option. I think I will probably apply for both, dont mean I have to get both. I will start with the .22lr and see how that pans out. I have used them in the past and it must be one of the best calibers ever invented, silent, hits with a fair punch and cheap as chips, i am aware of the odd down side, but your going to get pros and cons with any caliber. Rick O'sheas are not an issue for me, I would never take a shot that aint got a back stop and a good 300m fall out left and right, I'm lucky have the room and land to allow this. Bring on the FAC and lets go shopping. Schmoo. Personally i should hold off on the HMR and don't be tempted to add it at first application. You might fancy something better like a .22,.20 or even .17 small centrefire. There is always a chance they say yes to HMR and no to the .22lr on grounds of ill percieved safety issues or your justifiable needs for owning two bunny guns. My mind keep it dead simple on a first application as you can always do a variation after " i need a .22lr bolt action and moddy, heres my good reason / permission" is a lot more clear cut yes /no. If you get any grief about mentors, training etc. try them with an FAC air rifle initially but there should normally be no issues realy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmoo Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Personally i should hold off on the HMR and don't be tempted to add it at first application. You might fancy something better like a .22,.20 or even .17 small centrefire. There is always a chance they say yes to HMR and no to the .22lr on grounds of ill percieved safety issues or your justifiable needs for owning two bunny guns. My mind keep it dead simple on a first application as you can always do a variation after " i need a .22lr bolt action and moddy, heres my good reason / permission" is a lot more clear cut yes /no. If you get any grief about mentors, training etc. try them with an FAC air rifle initially but there should normally be no issues realy So my FEO may say no to a 22lr and suggest a 17hmr for the same job, or have I read that wrong ? Given the choice I would want the 22lr, as it is silentish and perhaps better at clearing rabbit from a stealth point of view, or is the sound the impact it has on the rabbit have the same sort of effect on other rabbits sitting nearby as the crack from a 17hmr from 100 odd yds ? Thanks for all this info, it is appreciated. Schmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Contrary to popular opinion I'd say try ano HMR before hand if you can. If you were closer you could try mine if livestock aren't ano issue then why restrict yourself to 70 yards when you could shoot up to 150 easily. Noise wise is a bit of a red herring as they can't work out where its come from and tend to look up. On heavily infested groung I've unloaded two mags as fast as - could reload in the past. Wind the other rumoured issue is a poor thing to worry about as they are less affected than .22lr's. Simple facts are you'll get fewer wounded bunnies and no zinging rounds disappearing into the distance something I can't get used to hence they can be easier to get on a first application. Cost wise well they are a little more than a shotgun cartridge so you have to be really tight to worry about it. If you've spent a fiver on bullets you'll have a fair pile of bunnies to show for it. If you do go .22 then as said you won't go wrong with a cz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmoo Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Contrary to popular opinion I'd say try ano HMR before hand if you can. If you were closer you could try mine if livestock aren't ano issue then why restrict yourself to 70 yards when you could shoot up to 150 easily. Noise wise is a bit of a red herring as they can't work out where its come from and tend to look up. On heavily infested groung I've unloaded two mags as fast as - could reload in the past. Wind the other rumoured issue is a poor thing to worry about as they are less affected than .22lr's. Simple facts are you'll get fewer wounded bunnies and no zinging rounds disappearing into the distance something I can't get used to hence they can be easier to get on a first application. Cost wise well they are a little more than a shotgun cartridge so you have to be really tight to worry about it. If you've spent a fiver on bullets you'll have a fair pile of bunnies to show for it. If you do go .22 then as said you won't go wrong with a cz Thanks for that al4x, Rick O'shea wise the hmr does make sense, but im sure they have their moments too, but I was concerned about the noise, I have not heard one for a while, so in your experience the rabbits dont react to it ? Have you shot both at rabbits near other rabbits, what if you could only have one, which one spooks them the least from their ideal distances, say 80 odd for 22lr and 150 for 17hmr. Then there is the cost of ammo, what does 17hmr work out a round, I think both would be good in the cabinet, for different circumstances. Do you think FEO's are more inclined to grant 17hmr over 22lr, or is this a massive what if question. Thanks Schmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Putting in for a .17HMR as well is perhaps a good idea, as said there is no need to actually get one but it saves the hassle of a variation. I wish I'd added it when I applied, as I now fancy one and it would have cost nothing... .22lr with subsonic is fine for 100 yards, it really doesn't take a genius to work out the drop at those ranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 If you stand down range of ano hmr obviously not in a dangerous position then when you hear the crack you can't work out where its come from, hence bunnies don't tend to run and just look for wjhere the noise cane from, personally I think more spook with a lr when it hits bunnies they get a noise thats easy to pinpoint and run. Cost wise latest - believe was £12 for 50 rounds. You do obviously need to be aware of ricockets but the bullet is half the weight has a polymer tip to aid expansion and going a lot far faster which means it looses more energy when it hits and being half the weight looses energy far faster than a relatively slow moving lump of lead you get from a .22lr. d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmoo Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Putting in for a .17HMR as well is perhaps a good idea, as said there is no need to actually get one but it saves the hassle of a variation. I wish I'd added it when I applied, as I now fancy one and it would have cost nothing... .22lr with subsonic is fine for 100 yards, it really doesn't take a genius to work out the drop at those ranges. I didnt know if putting in for both the .22lr and a 17hmr might make me look like some sort of gun crazed mad man, I was think about putting in for FAC air rifle too, so a .22lr, 17hmr and a FAC air rifle or some sort. Can but try and see what the FEO says, perhaps even use his advice, my FEO seems to be pretty clued up and shoots himself ( I have heard that a few FEO's are not that gunny ). Thanks for your input. Schmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmoo Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 If you stand down range of ano hmr obviously not in a dangerous position then when you hear the crack you can't work out where its come from, hence bunnies don't tend to run and just look for wjhere the noise cane from, personally I think more spook with a lr when it hits bunnies they get a noise thats easy to pinpoint and run. Cost wise latest - believe was £12 for 50 rounds. You do obviously need to be aware of ricockets but the bullet is half the weight has a polymer tip to aid expansion and going a lot far faster which means it looses more energy when it hits and being half the weight looses energy far faster than a relatively slow moving lump of lead you get from a .22lr. d So hmr ammo is simular to shotgun ammo prices, so not too bad. Expensive compared to 22lr but not worse than my shotty and I use them like their going out of fashion. The hmr would make my life alot easier, I wouldn't have to spend as much time crawling around on my belly all the time LOL. Thanks al4x. Schmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I applied for .22lr, .17HMR, .22 FAC air first time and got them all, as did a few others i know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat g Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Schmoo, Put down both HMR and 22lr on your application mate. Like i said they are two completely different tools for different jobs and any FEO worth his salt will know that. You have said you have big flat fields on your permission as well. One of the reasons i gave when applying for my HMR was to take corvids at range which is what i mainly use the HMR for but for rabbiting especially at night the 22lr is my 1st choice. Honestly i can't see you having any problems at all applying for both. You are better getting them both granted together than not applying then finding you require HMR which is then going to cost you another £26 for a variation before you even budget for your rifle. If i were you i would apply for 22lr with mod, 17HMR with mod and FAC air with mod. Say if you dont buy an FAC air rifle and wanted to move onto a c/f you can use that slot on your ticket and not have to pay for a variation. "a one for one " so to speak. That would be my advice mate, Good luck by the way ATB, Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 As above, apply for the lot- HMR, .22 LR and FAC air plus mods for each. With your acreage its perfectly reasonable for serious rabbit control. Don't be shy, be positive. You're applying for these guns to do a job of pest control and do it properly. Let the FEO know that you understand the pros and cons of each weapon and why you want all three. While you're at it ask for 1200 rounds to keep and 1000 to buy. The HMR, whatever the make, is likely to be ammo fussy, so you want to be able to buy as many of its favourite rounds from the same batch as you can. And you are likely to buy all rimfire ammo at a better price if you buy them in slabs- 500 for .22 and 250 for HMR. Point this out to the FEO and the fact that on heavily infested ground you can easily get through a 100 rounds in one night. When I put in for my HMR I told the FEO that I also wanted it for its short range fox capability for shots of opportunity only. At the mention of foxes he offered me a .22-250 as well. I didn't take him up on it at the time and ended up going back for a .222. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 All police areas and individual FEO's are different currently £26 for a variation - yeah i should give them but one desision to make not three or four. Listen up close .22 lr and subs is massively quieter than a hmr, if you have any sort of fieldcraft you will understand this statement " both calibres will clear a field of rabbits in totally different ways" To explain the sound difference sub sonic (subs) means around 1050 fps under the speed of sound there is no sonic crack only the noise of the powder being burned which incidently is realy tiny with any reasonable moderator it makes the firing inaudable other than the mecanical click. The 40grns of lead sriking an object is effectively the only noise. Multiple shots are more a probibility than a maybee. I have actually moved rabbits closer for a shot by shooting interntionally well behind them at the ground Now the HMR makes a sonic crack we hear that regardless of the moderator, it is not confined to the area were it is fired but a reflective noise. if you were stood in a safe location you might even hear a series of cracks as the noise reflects off telephone poles, trees and the likes. Multiple shots? well i found that was often as not pure luck if they are well out in the open they will often clamp down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) That seems a lot of guns and different ammo just to get to 100yds I am sure you didn't mean it that way though I just fail to get the whole HV thing though, they shoot poop at 100 compared to hows the subs will group are more noisy and its easy enough to "learn to shoot" subs this far via hold over- chest shooting as and were required by the individual Exactly so, it just depends how far his average shot is and what i consider the options to humanly be at that distance. I never had a lot of faith in HV rounds in 22LR, none of my rifles liked them but I did shoot a very old Marlin lever action that loved Remmy Yellowjackets. If you can stalk in to 20 yards from a rabbit you will have little trouble with deer if and when the time comes, it is superb training. A Edited February 20, 2012 by Alycidon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Exactly so, it just depends how far his average shot is and what i consider the options to humanly be at that distance. I never had a lot of faith in HV rounds in 22LR, none of my rifles liked them but I did shoot a very old Marlin lever action that loved Remmy Yellowjackets. If you can stalk in to 20 yards from a rabbit you will have little trouble with deer if and when the time comes, it is superb training. A yes i suppose those of us who learnt to stalk into 20yds because we had to in our early teens with an open sighted air rifle had a good appreticeship. It seems strange to me to hear i cannot get closer than 100yds! Wot in a blooming great pickup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I think that comes down to the can't or won't question. I don't like to stalk in to Rabbits often - I prefer to plug them at 100 yards plus by just walking in, getting prone and doing the deed. On open ground it's good to have that option which I think rules out the LR. Yes the gun is quiet but the impact sure isn't so I don't feel that it gains much in that respect other than perhaps if the neighbours are an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmoo Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I think that comes down to the can't or won't question. I don't like to stalk in to Rabbits often - I prefer to plug them at 100 yards plus by just walking in, getting prone and doing the deed. On open ground it's good to have that option which I think rules out the LR. Yes the gun is quiet but the impact sure isn't so I don't feel that it gains much in that respect other than perhaps if the neighbours are an issue. I think you have got me swaying towards the 17hmr , I will put in for 22lr, 17hmr and FAC air rifle. And to start with if all gets approved by the FEO go for the 17hmr, as I only shoot from first light till dark, and tired of falling over in the dark LOL Having the option of being able to just walk up take aim and pick em off from over three times as far as I have to now really does appeal, I will from time to time take out the sub 12ft air rifle just to test my stalking skills, dont want to lose what I have had to learn over the years, in order to get close enough to take the shot with the air rifle or shotgun. Just hope I dont become a lazier old fat bloke, than I am now, mind you I aint getting any younger and the appeal of not having to crawl on my belly for hours and hours over the course of a trip, really does appeal, oh yes. I havent got the set up for shooting in the dark as yet, but im sure as time goes by I will be able to hide a few quid from the War Office ( Mrs ) and start to get NV stuff, thats when I think I will get a 22lr for work in the dark. Thanks Schmoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwifruit Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 try the marlin .22lr under lever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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