digger Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Wondered how long before the Stockwell shooting was mentioned. They never gave him a chance? so if they had and it wasnt a mistake and the guy had a suicide vest on with a trigger in his hand what then?? Officers would have been blown apart along with others and slated for not pulling the trigger. Obviously not being there or in their shoes and relying on the media is the way forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) The Stockwell shooting is completely irrelevant, those officers thought they were dealing with a suicide bomber. What would you have prefered them to do? Fire a round and then check if it's done the job while he blows them and half the train to kingdom come. Most of the recruits to firearms units have a high testosterone and brylcreem count and no amount of training will overcome this. Edited March 31, 2012 by Livefast123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Wondered how long before the Stockwell shooting was mentioned. They never gave him a chance? so if they had and it wasnt a mistake and the guy had a suicide vest on with a trigger in his hand what then?? Officers would have been blown apart along with others and slated for not pulling the trigger. Obviously not being there or in their shoes and relying on the media is the way forward. A bit of topic. But i don't think its OK to shoot someone because they (might) have a bomb. Is there anyone on this forum that would think it was OK if it was a member of their family took the seven rounds to the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) On the flip side, what would happen if the police had left somebody who maybe had a bomb and then they killed xxx number of people by detonating it? They are damned if they do, damned if they don't Edited March 31, 2012 by Livefast123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Would it be better to lose a family member in a bombing the police could have prevented but didnt in case they were making a mistake? As livefast said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have witnessed some department activity that has smacked of bravado / macho aggression / and self-importance. I’m not sure whether it is nervousness or just being Mr macho man but there is a problem in the system of the people in charge. Years ago when handguns were owned the club just loved to go onto the military ranges after the firearms unit had been training as they left live rounds all over the place. The guys with 9mm had a field day. There was one occasion when they left the range and left a sleeve holder with weapons in it on the ground where the transit had been parked. The mil weren’t impressed. When I was a kid I had to learn the sportsman’s poem. A FATHERS ADVICE. If a sportsman true you’d be Listen carefully to me. . . Never, never let your gun Pointed be at anyone. That it may unloaded be Matters not the least to me. When a hedge or fence you cross Though of time it cause a loss From your gun the cartridge take For the greater safety’s sake. If twixt you and neighbouring gun Bird shall fly or beast may run Let this maxim ere be thine “Follow not across the line.” Stops and beaters oft unseen Lurk behind some leafy screen. Calm and steady always be “Never shoot where you can’t see.” You may kill or you may miss But at all times think this: “All the pheasants ever bred Won’t repay for one man dead.” Keep your place and silent be; Game can hear, and game can see; Don’t be greedy, better spared Is a pheasant, than one shared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) The actual officers in the Stockwell shooting believed 100% they were going to certain death but they still went. It wasn't their fault that the information they were given was wrong. Never doubt their personal courage, deplore the people that sent them if you will but not the guys who at the time totally believed they were seconds away from eternity.If he had a bomb, as they were told, their chances of survival would have been zero. He would have blown it before they could have got a shot off. Police fireams officers in general have too much testosterone as said in other posts. they are usually failed officers who get directed to the service because they have accumulated complaints in normal policing and their superiors don't know what else to do with them. The rank and file coppers have a low regard for them. But from time to time they are put in positions of extreme mortal danger. Would you want it? Its only a job after all. Edited March 31, 2012 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 The actual officers in the Stockwell shooting believed 100% they were going to certain death but they still went. It wasn't their fault that the information they were given was wrong. Never doubt their personal courage, deplore the people that sent them if you will but not the guys who at the time totally believed they were seconds away from eternity.If he had a bomb, as they were told, their chances of survival would have been zero. He would have blown it before they could have got a shot off. Police fireams officers in general have too much testosterone as said in other posts. they are usually failed officers who get directed to the service because they have accumulated complaints in normal policing and their superiors don't know what else to do with them. The rank and file coppers have a low regard for them. But from time to time they are put in positions of extreme mortal danger. Would you want it? Its only a job after all. I think it takes more courage for officers who go out on the beat every day unarmed than armed officers. How many armed officers have being killed compared with unarmed officers. Most armed officers will never be in any more danger than their unarmed colleges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 The actual officers in the Stockwell shooting believed 100% they were going to certain death but they still went. It wasn't their fault that the information they were given was wrong. Never doubt their personal courage, deplore the people that sent them if you will but not the guys who at the time totally believed they were seconds away from eternity.If he had a bomb, as they were told, their chances of survival would have been zero. He would have blown it before they could have got a shot off. Police fireams officers in general have too much testosterone as said in other posts. they are usually failed officers who get directed to the service because they have accumulated complaints in normal policing and their superiors don't know what else to do with them. The rank and file coppers have a low regard for them. But from time to time they are put in positions of extreme mortal danger. Would you want it? Its only a job after all. how do you know what they believed were you there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Fairly safe to say none on here were there? Too many people form opinions from Cops With Cameras and their own dealings with the police. Been a tad naughty = a general dislike. Sad really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Well, you can start by going through their evidence to the inquest. Confirmed bomber going down on to the train. Shoot to kill authorised. They would have to have been very lacking in imagination not to realise what that would have meant for them had it been true. Also their actions when they shot him seven times, they believed absolutely he was the real thing and they were crapping themselves. Its the people who got the information wrong that should have been made more to answer but they somehow managed to duck the blame and the inquest focussed on whether a warning was given. Edited March 31, 2012 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Edit. Edited March 31, 2012 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tel Time Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 i can see the humour in the photo but its wrong, first rule drummed into me was a weapon is always loaded, for those ex firearms officers it should have been a given that there is NO mucking around with guns, they are paying the price now for a lack of judgement, brutal but better than death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 The Stockwell shooting is completely irrelevant, those officers thought they were dealing with a suicide bomber. What would you have prefered them to do? Fire a round and then check if it's done the job while he blows them and half the train to kingdom come. Most of the recruits to firearms units have a high testosterone and brylcreem count and no amount of training will overcome this. Rubbish..... Was he a suicide bomber? No... Did he get a chance? No... Did they get it wrong? Yes.... Shoot first and answer the questions later! Yes.... (Most of the recruits to firearms units have a high testosterone and brylcreem count and no amount of training will overcome this) Rubbish... If you can pass the shooting test and have the control on a DSC 1 course you dont pass...Let alone roam around in a landrover dressed in black.....pointing your gun up your mates ****.... KICK them out and find some one who has the control. TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 What would you have done teh? Not been in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Do the police really need to be armed? They are involved in more bungled firings than were actually required in a 3 year period (2010 stats). Police marksmen have fired their guns more times by mistake than when responding to threats in the last three years, an investigation has found. One policeman was accidentally shot dead and two others were left with chest and hand injuries following 110 weapon blunders.Officers have only used their guns 29 times in response to actual incidents - and six members of the public have been killed by armed police in the last three years. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1294974/Bungling-armed-police-fired-guns-accidentally-110-TIMES-3-years.html#ixzz1qjjOohjp Edited March 31, 2012 by Greymaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Well, you can start by going through their evidence to the inquest sorry but inquest evidence may not be what happened on the day just what was presented to the coroner but really this shooting does not have much to do with the photo as we could quote wrongful shootings all day long and is it about if the police are popular no....the real questions has been answered 100 times already is it ok to point real guns in jest... no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 It's going a little OTT, but I have never heard so much bull **** regarding the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes in my life. He was staying in some flats where some suspects were, the instructions given to the officers were to observe the suspects, not do anything. The followed the wrong man (a mistake I accept can happen). When he got to the station officers were supposed to stop him getting on the train, instead they hung around having a H&S meeting first. By the time they actually entered the station he had already had time to buy a newspaper and was heading to the train. He was actually on the train by the time they reached him. Also, as they entered the station they were told over the radio that it wasn't him they were after. Obviously they were so hyped up at that stage they didn't have the self control to stop. Witnesses say they did not challenge him, instead they pinned him down and shot him. He was pinned down before they shot him, he could not have detonated anything as he was unable to move due to having several officers on him. If he had planned to detonate anything he would have done so before being made unable to move, so all the rubbish about stopping him detonating it when he was pinned down is just nonsense. Two officers fired a total of eleven shots according to the number of empty shell casings found on the floor of the train afterwards. Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at close range. The police missed him completely with 3 shots, and hit him once in the shoulder. After all this the police spoke lies, followed by lies followed by even more lies, before vital CCTV evidence managed to disappear. Much of the information on this is available here. Returning to the original topic (the bum gun), they did all this after the death of Ian Terry. In short, they feel they know everything even after accidentally killing people with firearms and won't learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Do the police really need to be armed? They are involved in more bungled firings than were actually required in a 3 year period (2010 stats). Is it being armed or the training that's the problem. Looking at the statistics how come the PSNI around 9000 armed officers that would have only basic training in firearms as part of their overhaul training and also don't leave their firearms at the station before going home like they do in the MET. Have less negligent discharges than the (HIGHLY TRAINED OFFICERS AT THE MET). ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE LEAGUE TABLE:Metropolitan Police 56 Northern Ireland 31 Bedfordshire 3 Devon and Cornwall 2 Lincolnshire Police 2 Edited March 31, 2012 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggins. Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 I can`t believe that there are shooters on here that believe it`s ok to point a gun at someone just for a laugh. If you do think it`s ok then i wonder if your FEO would deem you responsible enough to own a firearm. You never know he may have already read your comments. The only ones i would expect to be doing that are the kids on the street playing cowboys and indians. Those officers should have known better and got what they deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 What would you have done teh? Not been in that situation. You seem more than a little defensive over the Menezes shooting! Have we hit a nerve? The facts are: They got it wrong and shot an innocent person (several times) You can type till the cows come home, but those involved, still enjoy getting up in the mornings and Jean Charles de Menezes was killed by people who clearly could not show restraint when it came to pulling the trigger. Regarding what I would do is not relevant to the subject of Firearms Officers pointing guns at their collages or killing innocent people. TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 TEH, not looking for a row just trying to see it from the officers view. Im sure they were not cold blooded hit men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 TEH, not looking for a row just trying to see it from the officers view. Im sure they were not cold blooded hit men. im amazed there view isnt out of a barred window lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I can`t believe that there are shooters on here that believe it`s ok to point a gun at someone just for a laugh. If you do think it`s ok then i wonder if your FEO would deem you responsible enough to own a firearm. You never know he may have already read your comments. The only ones i would expect to be doing that are the kids on the street playing cowboys and indians. Those officers should have known better and got what they deserved. I think you have slightly got the wrong end of the stick. What I and a couple of others are saying, is that some of the over the top, self righteous, pompous, supercilious clap trap spouted on this thread about what was obviously a staged photo just beggars belief. Furthermore, how some who post this pompous nonsense can then go on to condone the Stockwell shooting on the grounds that he could have been a bomber again reinforces my thoughts. I am more than happy for my licensing department to read my comments and if my comments worry you that much, you may feel it your duty to point my licensing manager in my direction. I would be only to pleased to furnish you with my FAC number, just PM me for the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 im amazed there view isnt out of a barred window lol Why? Irrespective of the validity of the target they were following orders... Security forces whether military or civilian cannot function without a chain of command and not following orders is not an option.. Just think yourself lucky you aren't asked to do that kind of job unless of course you are so special you think you could have done it better or differently... which, for the record would have meant disobeying orders! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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