David BASC Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 All the BASC codes are in the public domain so anyone can see them and print them off, let alone the tens of thousands that are distributed by the police. Maybe there could be a set bank of questions on law and safety that could be added to the questions asked at application or renewal, but this would, inevitably, make the licensing managers cry out that they want more money for licences! However as Furguson Tom says its already happening in some forces. As or the shooting community promoting shooting wider, well this has been going of for the last few years with the British Shooting Sports Council funding the national Shooting Week and the CA running the web site and doing the press releases… David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 All the BASC codes are in the public domain so anyone can see them and print them off, let alone the tens of thousands that are distributed by the police. Maybe there could be a set bank of questions on law and safety that could be added to the questions asked at application or renewal, but this would, inevitably, make the licensing managers cry out that they want more money for licences! However as Furguson Tom says its already happening in some forces. As or the shooting community promoting shooting wider, well this has been going of for the last few years with the British Shooting Sports Council funding the national Shooting Week and the CA running the web site and doing the press releases… David Ok then, we'll just carry on as we are and wait for the legislation. It won't take many more incidents involving licensed shooters before compulsory 'training' is on the agenda. Maybe that's what the organisations are waiting for? After all they'd be the one's running any courses, and taking the money for them. I really don't think we do ourselves any favours sometimes. We should be at the forefront of promoting safe and legal practices....not waiting to be told by others how we should go about our chosen sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Bingo. All as we do is moan, yet do nothing. Surely there would be anoth man power on here to make a few 'have a go days' happen. David, I have never seen anything in east Yorkshire to promote shooting in national shooting week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Is there actually a problem that needs fixing in the first place Mandatory training would just become another empire building exercise and stop people bothering. I think that if people are prepared to go thru the hassle of getting a licence they would largely also put some effort in to studying the sport they are about to take up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry31 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Its a difficult question I can see the need for some sort of basic safety requisite however I also think theres enough hoops to jump through already the real problem will rear its head if god forbid theres a serious accident and the legal knee jerk reaction takes place then what? Night school for guns nvq in shooting a health and safety card before you can get bullets ummm I think it needs some thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Is there actually a problem that needs fixing in the first place Mandatory training would just become another empire building exercise and stop people bothering. I think that if people are prepared to go thru the hassle of getting a licence they would largely also put some effort in to studying the sport they are about to take up. It's not about mandatory training. I don't think anybody wants that. There's loads of information out there, mainly on the internet, but it's all over the place. My idea would be to bring it all together on one site, and on application point the applicant to that site so they can have all the information they need in one place. As to whether there's a need? well looking at some of the questions asked here and elsewhere I'd say yes there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Sitsinheadges. I mention one individual who has a fac yet dose not know basic stuff, I believe he is not on his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) This is already in place in many target shooting clubs, although maybe not in law. I have recently got my FAC for target shooting sports only, without any use for game shooting etc. Therefore, in order for my FAC to be processed, I had to undergo a probationary membership of a target club of a minimum 3 months and the club rules (as in many other clubs) state that in order to provide the relevant reference for target shooting, I had to prove myself a safe and responsible shooter. This required me to be able to quote range safety rules, as laid down in the 'Bisley Bible', emergency procedures, firearm handling safety, was observed to demonstrate safe handling and shooting of a variety of guns, and knowledge of basic gun assembly and cleaning. Some clubs require full NRA/NSRA training and certification as a Range Conducting Officer as the final part of the probationary training. Only at that point will they confirm to the police that you are a full member, as required for the FAC. For myself, as I already held an SGC, I managed this in the three month minimum, but for many, this can be a six month probation, and this is before you can even start to apply for the FAC, meaning that in Lincolnshire (Who currently take 6 months to process an FAC) for example, from first attending the club as a visitor, the minimum time till you can get your FAC is 9 months. No wonder some people give up, but I must admit to some comfort that the people around me are all up to the minimum, unlike at my local clay ground, where I have twice seen SGC holders waving loaded or closed guns around (Both severely taken to task and one thrown off the ground). I enjoyed the training and feel safer in myself, but like many on here, I am concerned that unless we take the lead, it is the thin end of a very big wedge. Edited July 24, 2012 by Bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 i see both parts of the arguments, but let me tell you of a few concerns. A guy goes wildfowling, buys some nontoxic cartridges, doesnt fully research what he needs. puts a 3" in a 2,3/4" chamber. to cut the story short, small trip to A&E, and he has to inform the police his gun disapeared. it blew up into bits. he has the stock and tore open action, barrels are gone. - he should have known. A guy goes shooting and brings a totally absurd cartridge for pigeons, i`m talking silly big, the kind of silly big where there are only 9 pieces of shot. doesnt understand, fall out zone, pattern range, etc. -he should have known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Its a difficult question I can see the need for some sort of basic safety requisite however I also think theres enough hoops to jump through already the real problem will rear its head if god forbid theres a serious accident and the legal knee jerk reaction takes place then what? Night school for guns nvq in shooting a health and safety card before you can get bullets ummm I think it needs some thought We shouldn't look at the safety and legalities of our sport as a 'hoop to jump through'. It should be a given that anyone using a gun has the basic knowledge required to carry out their shooting safely and within the law. You're quite right in saying that a few serious accidents could make the authorities start looking at mandatory training. Surely then it would make sense to lessen the chances of an accident by making it easier for new shooters to access all the information they need BEFORE we find ourselves going down the legislation route? There are plenty of countries who do have mandatory training........it wouldn't take much for it to be enacted here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry31 Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Im not downplaying the whole process of obtaining a FAC. or indeed trying to say that safety shoulnt be the first and foremost consideration . Im saying that there are already enough stages to complete however im concerned that without doing something ourselves now we could be forced down a difficult path. Its not just newbys either some folk do get complacent take a look on youtube at rabbit shooting by a professional outfit see if you can spot 2 cars full of people directly behind the rabbit ill give you a clue one of the cars is a shogun in a really hard to see bright silver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I go back to my post earlier. I like to think i am a reasonably bright bloke ( others may differ in their opinion) But some things that are glaringly obvious now were not always clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Is there actually a problem that needs fixing in the first place Yes, to a limited degree. Mandatory training would just become another empire building exercise and stop people bothering. Don't know; it would be interesting to see how things are in the countries where this is a requirement - eg, France, Germany. I think that if people are prepared to go thru the hassle of getting a licence What hastle? Fill in a form, have some photo's done, get a counter-signature (referee) and post it off with a cheque. Make coffee and buy biscuits. they would largely also put some effort in to studying the sport they are about to take up. It wouldn't be a bad thing if this, or anything else for that matter, stopped the "fashion hobbyists" in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I am totally against testing. The things that go wrong are down to stupidity or criminal intent - little to do with lack of training. If you establish basic training, some bright spark will suggest that it is periodically updated - just to check that you still understand. Then it will become a cottage industry. Will there be training for clays - for rough shooting - for driven game - practical shotgun. just where would it end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 But if we took the matter up on our own it maybe wouldn't become mandatory. It could help us preserve the sport we love doing. If WE are proactive in promoting the sport. Instead of relying on basc and the like. 5 years down the line I think it will be very hard to get fac anyway, look at all the posts about mentor conditions. Getting more and more common Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I am totally against testing. The things that go wrong are down to stupidity or criminal intent - little to do with lack of training. If you establish basic training, some bright spark will suggest that it is periodically updated - just to check that you still understand. Then it will become a cottage industry. Will there be training for clays - for rough shooting - for driven game - practical shotgun. just where would it end? Precisely, how many young people are killed in cars every year despite having a long course of training and gruelling tests at the end of it? Training would just become another stick to beat shooters with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) I am totally against testing. The things that go wrong are down to stupidity or criminal intent - little to do with lack of training. If you establish basic training, some bright spark will suggest that it is periodically updated - just to check that you still understand. Then it will become a cottage industry. Will there be training for clays - for rough shooting - for driven game - practical shotgun. just where would it end? I take your point, but no offence intended - the whole application procedure IS a test - of your suitability, criminal record, temperment, etc, etc, etc. The FEO visit (I know that some FEO visits are a joke!) is a form of test, supposedly to examine and satisfy them that you are competent, safe and knowledgable. In a properly conducted FEO visit for FAC, you have to provide good reason for every firarm you request, and they will expect you to have a good knowledge base, what else is that other than a 'test'? I think that anyone who does not believe (as you and I seem to agree) that the powers that be have not considered compulsory testing and updating are being naive in the least. If we as shooters, possibly via organisations such as BASC etc do not at least discuss this and prepare contingency plans for proposals IF it is ever seriously discussed at government level, then we could be caught with our proverbial underwear around our ankles! Edited July 24, 2012 by Bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Sitinhedges makes the perfect point I was about to post –what is the problem we are trying to fix? Is there nay evidence that compulsory testing or training reduces accidents? Not that I have found. However, a good PR message to the wider shooting public would that shooters follow voluntary codes and that its self policed by other shooters. Cockercas, point taken what sort of events do you think would be more successful in E Yorkshire? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshLamb Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 In theory, it would be a good idea but in reality it will never happen. The sport has had so many set backs as it is, also police force have had massive staff and funding cuts. When I got my SGC I didn't know one end of a bang-stick from the other, so I went and had lessons on clay and spent time with shooters who taught me loads, also loads of valuable info on here. But I know many people who wouldn't have done the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobydog Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 When my feo came round he said if possible do Basc safe shot course, wouldn't stop me getting a sgc if i didn't but for my own piece of mind , did this, cost £20 and took 1 hour not much to keep the feo and myself happy that i was competent with a gun, also got to do some clays and a cup of tea. So maybe something on those lines may not be a bad idea. Scobydog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I am totally against testing. The things that go wrong are down to stupidity or criminal intent - little to do with lack of training. If you establish basic training, some bright spark will suggest that it is periodically updated - just to check that you still understand. Then it will become a cottage industry. Will there be training for clays - for rough shooting - for driven game - practical shotgun. just where would it end? I'm totally against paid training courses too. There are however some really basic safety and legal questions which come up on here on a fairly regular basis. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it's always best to ask if unsure, but often the questions come AFTER a certificate has been issued. This forum, and others, only covers a tiny fraction of the shooting community, so I would guess there are plenty of new shooters who either don't ask or possibly do ask but may get the wrong answer from friends or others. As I said earlier, collate all the information in one place and tell new applicants where to access it, and they can then educate themselves KNOWING that they've got the correct information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Sitinhedges makes the perfect point I was about to post –what is the problem we are trying to fix? Is there nay evidence that compulsory testing or training reduces accidents? Not that I have found. However, a good PR message to the wider shooting public would that shooters follow voluntary codes and that its self policed by other shooters. Cockercas, point taken what sort of events do you think would be more successful in E Yorkshire? David Maybe the difference is that some of us were brought up with guns in a different age and the attitude to them was totally different then with none of what seems to be the constant fear of having them taken away that we have now, and none of the current hysteria that we now have regarding guns generally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 However, a good PR message to the wider shooting public would that shooters follow voluntary codes and that its self policed by other shooters. David How about sending out a good PR message to the wider GENERAL public? Not a lot of point preaching to the converted. How about sending out the message that the shooting community are doing all they can to educate new shooters. Personally I don't think we are, and I can see it coming back to bite us on the bum sooner or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Maybe the difference is that some of us were brought up with guns in a different age and the attitude to them was totally different then with none of what seems to be the constant fear of having them taken away that we have now, and none of the current hysteria that we now have regarding guns generally. Exactly. Which is why we have to adapt, and be one step ahead of those who would have more restrictions brought in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Hi David, anything would be better than nothing. If stuff is going on then its not very well advertised. I was bought up with guns. I've been shooting since I could pull the trigger,BUT many new shooters are talking the sport up and there dads/granddads don't shoot so there just mulling along, even if they are breaking the law they don't know it. Take my erleyer example, he didn't know he wasn't allowed to shoot fox with his lr, and that he couldn't go on others land unless it was cleared first. Simple stuff for us in the know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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