Big Game hunting,(particularly big five)

[wildfowler.250]

I'd love to do a trip to Africa at some point but mainly for the antelope species. I know that you can pay a lot of money and shoot lion/leopard. However, I like to be able to justify what I shoot. I have no real intention to hunt a leopard but how would I warrant shooting one of I wanted to? Is it ok to say that you pay a large sum of money to shoot an animal who's population is very strictly controlled. And the money helps ensure that the remaining animals are looked after and protected from poachers? Do the lions/leopards get eaten?

I know elephants are and they also cause a lot of damage.

 

I can imagine if I was to try and justify big game hunting to friends they would think my reasons are ********. Just interested to hear your views?

[poontang]

Elephant, Lion and Leopard populations are all in decline.

 

Whether it be through hunting, human expansion into their range, poaching or the fur trade they are declining all over Africa.

 

Personally I can't think of a single reason to hunt them. Occasionally there may be a rogue animal, or one that is injured where a bullet may be the best option, but I see no reason why that couldn't be done by a local marksman.

 

For every trophy beast that's shot, it's one less animal able to breed and help build the population.

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks for the reply poontang. I didn't think elephants were in decline but I could quite easily be wrong. I was just curious whether big 5 hunting is in anyway sustainable.

 

Funnily enough I believe cheetahs are so inbred that you can take a skin graft from one animal and place it into another without any adverse reaction. Just a little fact I remembered

[sako751sg]

If its regulated correctly and numbers are sustainable I don't see any problems at all with it. Obviously if numbers are at a level where shooting has a detrimentary impact in the big picture then it's something that shouldn't be happening. Hopefully the revenue goes towards trying to combat indiscrimate poaching ect,but you never know as a lot of these countries are very prone to corruption. To think that a dead animal being through legit or poaching is the same,is very naive. A dead deer taken by a well placed pill or chased and ripped to shreds by poachers dogs over here are not the same,although both have the same ending.

[Bleeh]

Elephant, Lion and Leopard populations are all in decline.

 

 

Go do some reading about Elephant populations, then edit this comment.

[MiLisCer]

I have a good friend who is a game warden in South Africa - like he keeps telling people - without the "shooting" for sport - then a lot of these animals would already be extinct - they are now managed and controlled (looked after for want of a better word) to enable them to be hunted - the money then goes to help the local infrastructure - local trade benefits from the tourist/hunter etc.

[Poacher]

Go do some reading about Elephant populations, then edit this comment.

way too many ellies

[shakari]

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I’ll introduce myself first and then (I hope without causing offence) correct a few misconceptions/misunderstandings.

 

I’m Steve Robinson. An ex pat Brit and I’ve been working in the African hunting safari industry for 32 years or so. I’ve hunted professionally in 7 African countries, I've conducted a fairly large number of hunting & photo safaris in many of Africa's finest true wilderness areas & also conducted a fair number of game capture operations using a variety of methods from dart guns to helicopters & I've hunted the Big 5 many times over.

 

I've also written a fair number of articles on various aspects of African hunting, co-written one book and written another (How To Become A Professional Hunter In Africa) and have the largest info website on African hunting on the net. – I’m going from memory but think it’s currently running at about 800 pages. I’m also quoted in a number of books & scientific papers & my photographs have been published in a number of books, magazine articles & scientific papers etc.

 

I also lived in Africa for 11 years and have recently emigrated to Portugal as part of the retirement & not getting murdered process. J

Please don’t think that statement is bragging. That isn’t my intention at all. My intention is simply to let you know that I do know what I’m talking about.

 

Moving on:

 

Elephant & leopard are NOT in decline at all. Populations of both species are very healthy indeed and elephants especially are (despite recent poaching issues) generally increasing in numbers. Some countries such as Botswana are actually suffering a massive overpopulation problem and this is actually causing massive habitat destruction problems that of course then causes declines in all animal populations that occur in those areas. The two biggest problems that elephants face is human encroachment that has resulted in creating ‘elephant islands’ and an overpopulation that is in some cases threatening total habitat destruction..

 

Leopards have never been accurately counted & probably never will because they're so secretive but there are absolutely no shortage of them.

 

Lions are a more complicated issue. They breed easily and quickly but again, human encroachment combined with the local populations (esp the Masai in Tanzania & Kenya etc) has indeed resulted in a population decline but it’s nowhere near enough to threaten them as a species.

 

If you look at the countries that do allow controlled sport trophy hunting, you will see those countries have the most successful game populations by far and those that don’t, have the least successful populations. The main reason for this is if the local populations see wild animals have a value to them by way of income & employment etc, they’ll protect them but if the animals don’t give them those things, they view & treat them as competitors for their crops & will kill them as quickly as possible and by any & all means possible. Prime examples of both are Tanzania that does allow trophy sport hunting and has extremely healthy game populations & Kenya that does not allow sport trophy hunting & has rapidly declining game populations.

 

Sport hunting brings in large amounts of much needed hard currency into the countries concerned and is considered high income/low impact to the environment whereas photo safaris do the opposite.

 

As for local marksmen...... quite honestly, they’re about as rare as rocking horse doo-doos.

 

Regarding the comment: “cheetahs are so inbred that you can take a skin graft from one animal and place it into another without any adverse reaction” is utter tripe. I don’t know where that information came from but believe me there’s not a shred of truth in that statement.

 

I don’t know the rules about posting links here but will post one and if it is against the rules, I hope the moderators will forgive me and remove the link.

This might be of interest: http://www.shakarico...rt-hunting.html

 

I'll be happy to answer any questions to the best of my ability.

Edited September 29, 2012 by shakari

[poontang]

Go do some reading about Elephant populations, then edit this comment.

 

Thanks for the advice, but I'll pass if it's ok with you?

 

IUCN, CITES. WWF, IFAW and plenty of others all say the same. Although there is a slight growth in the population (around 4%) in South Africa and some East African countries, there are large declines in populations (up to 80% in some regions) in Central and West African countries.

Overall the population has fallen from an estimated 4million in the 1930's to about 550,000 today.

 

That's a pretty steep decline in anybody's book.

 

If you get off on shooting Elephant that's fine...go for it.

 

The OP asked for peoples opinions on big game hunting, I gave mine. Still to hear your opinion on the question though.

[shakari]

Thanks for the advice, but I'll pass if it's ok with you?

 

IUCN, CITES. WWF, IFAW and plenty of others all say the same. Although there is a slight growth in the population (around 4%) in South Africa and some East African countries, there are large declines in populations (up to 80% in some regions) in Central and West African countries.

Overall the population has fallen from an estimated 4million in the 1930's to about 550,000 today.

 

That's a pretty steep decline in anybody's book.

 

If you get off on shooting Elephant that's fine...go for it.

 

The OP asked for peoples opinions on big game hunting, I gave mine. Still to hear your opinion on the question though.

 

The figures quoted by IUCN, CITES. WWF, IFAW etc simply can't be relied on because the closest anyone has come to doing a proper survey was Ian Douglas Hamilton back in the 70s or so...... Some areas are indeed suffering population declines but overall, there are far too many elephants and some areas such as Botswana are now suffering a massive overpopulation that's resulting in overgrazing & habitat loss.

 

I don't yet have full posting rights so have to wait for my posts to appear but once I do get full posting rights (assuming I do) I'll try to post a few pics to show what overpopulation does to the habitat.

[shakari]

OK. Here's some examples of what happens when an eco system suffers from too many elephants and a very short summary of what happens afterwards:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of the trees in Africa take hundreds of years to grow and have been destroyed in seconds. Once the tree cover and the grass is destroyed, the rains come and wash the top soil away which then starts the desertification process and that means nothing can grow and therefore no animal survive in the area.

 

If elephant numbers are not kept under control, as happened in Kenya in about the late 60s or 70s or so, we end up with this:

 

 

 

Every little white speck you see is an elephant bone. These last two pics are from the book the end of the game by peter beard. - All the others are mine and I hold copyright on them and I do not give permission for them to be reproduced.

Edited September 29, 2012 by shakari

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks for all the replies! Really appreciate it and I will do a full reply taro,(shattered just now!).

 

 

 

Regarding the comment: “cheetahs are so inbred that you can take a skin graft from one animal and place it into another without any adverse reaction” is utter tripe. I don’t know where that information came from but believe me there’s not a shred of truth in that statement.

 

shakari, thanks for all your info. It's not tripe. I was informed this by a professor who lectured immunology. I can't remember the full details right now but basically.... Cheetah's had a disease outbreak hundreds,(or thousands) of years ago which killed the majority of the population. since then the remaining animals bred and repopulated. These cheetah's all express the very similar MHC molecules which control interactions with leukocytes and determine compatibility between two individuals for a transplant. Because they are closely related and the MHC molecules expressed are so similar, you can,(allegedly) take a skin graft from one cheetah and transfer it onto another without any adverse reaction.

 

The exact details of the above isn't 100% correct but it's pretty close

[wildfowler.250]

found this online:

 

 

Cheetahs are very inbred. They are so inbred, that genetically they are almost identical.

The current theory is that they became inbred when a "natural" disaster dropped their total world population down to less than seven individual cheetahs - probably about 10,000 years ago. They went through a "Genetic Bottleneck", and their genetic diversity plummeted. They survived only through brother-to-sister or parent-to-child mating.

cheetahs will accept skin grafts from each other, and not reject the graft, about 50% of the time

[shakari]

Mate, I'll guarantee you it is utter tripe . Your man may well be a God in immunology but he knows **** all about cheetahs or Africa. However, if he'd care to contact me, I'll be delighted to put him in touch with the leading cat experts in Africa who will be happy to correct his misconceptions.

 

It might be possible between cheetahs in the same home range (though I SERIOUSLY doubt it) but never in a million years would it be possible between any two cheetahs.

 

I'd certainly be interested to see what scientific paper he got that from though.

 

I don't actually see what it has to do with the viability & justification of African hunting but either way, If you can't post the link(s) to the papers, perhaps you could post the link(s) to the site(s) where you got that info please?

 

In recent weeks, I've seen sites that say there are only 4 or 5 white rhino left alive, that they turn the colour of the soil they eat & that all rhino are grazers that weigh several thousand kilos & all live on the savannah............. but it doesn't mean that any or all of that is necessarily true.

 

FWIW, King cheetahs are very inbred but I have my doubts that interchangeable skin grafts would work even with them.

Edited September 29, 2012 by shakari

[DaveK]

Steve, you're on a hiding to nothing. What are people going to believe? Something they've read about or someone who's lived with it for years and made a living from it?

 

Have a good trawl. You'll find a good deal of top notch posts and topics but you'll equally find as much armchair twaddle. Entertaining though.

[SA Shooter]

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I’ll introduce myself first and then (I hope without causing offence) correct a few misconceptions/misunderstandings.

 

I’m Steve Robinson. An ex pat Brit and I’ve been working in the African hunting safari industry for 32 years or so. I’ve hunted professionally in 7 African countries, I've conducted a fairly large number of hunting & photo safaris in many of Africa's finest true wilderness areas & also conducted a fair number of game capture operations using a variety of methods from dart guns to helicopters & I've hunted the Big 5 many times over.

 

I've also written a fair number of articles on various aspects of African hunting, co-written one book and written another (How To Become A Professional Hunter In Africa) and have the largest info website on African hunting on the net. – I’m going from memory but think it’s currently running at about 800 pages. I’m also quoted in a number of books & scientific papers & my photographs have been published in a number of books, magazine articles & scientific papers etc.

 

I also lived in Africa for 11 years and have recently emigrated to Portugal as part of the retirement & not getting murdered process. J

Please don’t think that statement is bragging. That isn’t my intention at all. My intention is simply to let you know that I do know what I’m talking about.

 

Moving on:

 

Elephant & leopard are NOT in decline at all. Populations of both species are very healthy indeed and elephants especially are (despite recent poaching issues) generally increasing in numbers. Some countries such as Botswana are actually suffering a massive overpopulation problem and this is actually causing massive habitat destruction problems that of course then causes declines in all animal populations that occur in those areas. The two biggest problems that elephants face is human encroachment that has resulted in creating ‘elephant islands’ and an overpopulation that is in some cases threatening total habitat destruction..

 

Leopards have never been accurately counted & probably never will because they're so secretive but there are absolutely no shortage of them.

 

Lions are a more complicated issue. They breed easily and quickly but again, human encroachment combined with the local populations (esp the Masai in Tanzania & Kenya etc) has indeed resulted in a population decline but it’s nowhere near enough to threaten them as a species.

 

If you look at the countries that do allow controlled sport trophy hunting, you will see those countries have the most successful game populations by far and those that don’t, have the least successful populations. The main reason for this is if the local populations see wild animals have a value to them by way of income & employment etc, they’ll protect them but if the animals don’t give them those things, they view & treat them as competitors for their crops & will kill them as quickly as possible and by any & all means possible. Prime examples of both are Tanzania that does allow trophy sport hunting and has extremely healthy game populations & Kenya that does not allow sport trophy hunting & has rapidly declining game populations.

 

Sport hunting brings in large amounts of much needed hard currency into the countries concerned and is considered high income/low impact to the environment whereas photo safaris do the opposite.

 

As for local marksmen...... quite honestly, they’re about as rare as rocking horse doo-doos.

 

Regarding the comment: “cheetahs are so inbred that you can take a skin graft from one animal and place it into another without any adverse reaction” is utter tripe. I don’t know where that information came from but believe me there’s not a shred of truth in that statement.

 

I don’t know the rules about posting links here but will post one and if it is against the rules, I hope the moderators will forgive me and remove the link.

This might be of interest: http://www.shakarico...rt-hunting.html

 

I'll be happy to answer any questions to the best of my ability.

someone that knows the crac!!!

[swiss.tony]

will we see that wolverine 303 cap gun in action soon on a elephant lol board now off bed some of us av bin out big game hunting fluffy bunny rabbbbits laters girls

[Kes]

I am sure there are many perspectives, as many as there are hunters who will pay for shooting, particularly Americans.

That satisfies my concerns that the money used for conservation is safe and PROVIDED its well regulated the populations are secured.

What worries me is the levels of corruption in Africa generally, life is cheap - an animals life cheaper but valuable in dollars so I am not so sure the animals are safe - what with that and the 'bush meat' culture and even necessity.

 

So you wont find me shooting the big five - I'd go and shoot them like doc holiday might but as a shooter I want to be sure these animals survive and, for me, thats the best way to help.

 

Just MO.

[shakari]

Kes,

 

There is indeed a lot of corruption in Africa & life is indeed cheap..... in fact, very cheap but the sport trophy hunting is generally very carefully controlled and it's the hunting that ensures the ongoing success of the game populations.

 

Probably the best example of that in recent decades is the white rhino where the Kwa Zulu Game Dept saved the species by allowing a few old males that were past breeding age to be hunted and using the money gained to finance their breeeding & research programmes.

 

Rhino are currently suffering a huge bout of ruthless poaching but prior to that, the KZN game dept had taken the species from being seriously at risk to relatively numerous.

 

Whether you choose to hunt Africa in general and the Big 5 in particular is entirely up to you but don't for a moment think that by not doing so, you're contributing to conservation or saving the species because you ain't.

[wildfowler.250]

Thank you very much for all the replies. Nice to hear your views Shakari I sent you a PM as I had quite a few questions and I thought it would be easier just to message you

 

 

ATB

[shakari]

And replied to.

[Kes]

I am stiil of the opinion shooting big game with a camera (doc holiday reference) can benefit their conservation rather more.

I hope no-one gets the bug to shoot one because they are 'rare' - couldnt live with my conscience I am afraid

[Imperfection]

Must admit this is an informative thread! I've learnt so much in very little time about a subject i'd not even thought about.

 

...and it hasnt been locked yet.

[wildfowler.250]

I am stiil of the opinion shooting big game with a camera (doc holiday reference) can benefit their conservation rather more.

I hope no-one gets the bug to shoot one because they are 'rare' - couldnt live with my conscience I am afraid

 

Having thought about it. How many trips out with a camera would it take to equate what 1 person would pay to shoot 1 elephant,(for example). And it's much less desturbance/pollution. Try YouTube'ing Dara O'brian on safari's and all he talks about seeing is land rovers. Would love to do a plains game safari one day. The only one of the big 5 I would ever shoot,(if I could afford to) would be a buffalo. But it was still interesting to hear the opinions from everyone.

 

No real point in ever locking a thread as you can't really argue with someone over the Internet anyway I'd just switch off the computer

[shakari]

I am stiil of the opinion shooting big game with a camera (doc holiday reference) can benefit their conservation rather more.

I hope no-one gets the bug to shoot one because they are 'rare' - couldnt live with my conscience I am afraid

 

The Big 5 aren't 'rare' at all & hunting & import quotas are strictly enforced so they can't be overshot and it's the hunting of these species that not only conserves their populations but also in turn conserves the other game and indeed their habitat.

 

FWIW, I'm a very keen photographer & like especially to specialise in getting close to dangerous game (on foot) with a camera instead of a rifle and have guided a relatively large number of both photo & hunting safaris & although both are enjoyable, it's the hunting safaris that help & support game populations the most.......... Don't forget that properly conducted sport trophy hunting by it's very nature takes the old animals that are past their prime and allows the younger bulls to have their turn in the breeding cycles.

 

Examples Here: http://www.shakariconnection.com/hunting-africa-free-of-charge.html especially 2nd pic down

 

& also

 

 

 

And yes, I did have the lens in the lion's mouth as he yawned!

 

 

As usual, the images are my copyright & they are not to be reproduced without my permission