The Police are making me break the law

[al4x]

Here's an example of someone who clearly should not have been sent to prison - and I rather fancy his chances of getting off with this similar offence to be higher than anyone saying 'my FEO/FLD said it's OK to break the law'.

http://www.dailymail...ng-service.html

 

not that you had a lot of credibility but you lost the lot in comparing this case with someone with a renewal being processed. He had an illegal gun, no one in the military can bring back trophy weapons and stash them under the bed. The fact he had lots of excuses for why it wasn't his fault is irrelevant.

 

In the case of a license holder trying to comply with the law and the police licensing dept running slowly and advising you as you have an application in and it is their fault that they wouldn't prosecute its as far from similar as you can get.

You have one view licensing and normal cert holders have another thats it, the fact remains many thousands of us have been caught up in the technicality and taken the advice of licensing and not been locked up. Certainly in my case though it was a fortnight the new license was back dated from date of expiry of the last one so in their eyes I was never without one. We can talk what iffs all day the real point is what actually happens and a chief constable has ultimate charge of licensing and operations and if one try and trip the other up then its hardly going to help his job prospects.

[bedwards1966]

There are hundreds in Hampshire caught up in the backlog, and are just waiting out their renewal, as instructed.

 

As iv previously said, my flo is a serving officer not a civi. The letter acknowledging the receipt of the application I posted above is proof.

 

And the police will prosecute everyone, because they put them in that situation and advised them to keep hold of their guns...... Ok, I guess we'll all have to wait out on that one....

 

Proof of what?

It's proof that the FLD won't prosecute you for breaking the law. That means absolutely nothing to the divisional police or the CPS!

Just because anyone in the police tells you it's OK to break the law does NOT make it legal! Nor does it prevent you being prosecuted.

 

If you got a letter from the Chief Constable telling you it's OK to drive without a licence, insurance, tax, MOT, and that they would not prosecute you if you did it, it would not make it legal, and they could still successfully prosecute you. It's only the government that have the power to make or amend laws.

 

In what way is it different for your FLD to say it's fine to break the law and somebody who passes you on the street, or says something on a forum? They're both as qualified (i.e not) to tell you to break the law.

Your silly idea that they could not prosecute is ignoring the simple fact that they can, that they have no legal authority to legalize something, and the fact that you ARE breaking the law.

 

JL

 

You keep harping on about having no certificate - well I would beg to differ as the new one runs from the date the old one expires - ah but you pipe in you don't actually have the certificate so you are in illegal possession - neither do you have it once it has been lost, sent in for variation, destroyed in the washing machine, eaten by next door chimp - these situations do not leave you in illegal possession either.

 

 

Maybe you should take the LLB exam instead of being a barrack room lawyer - try it for real.

 

Your wrong. When you send it a certificate for any change you still have one, as it's been granted. You're simply sending it in for an amendment, and while you may not hold it in your hand, you are a certificate holder.

 

When renewing a certificate once your old one has expired, you are no longer a certificate holder, regardless of whether an application is in for another.

For the period of time that passes until the police grant you a new one, you do not hold a certificate, it's as simple as that. If they print it and backdate it then to anyone looking back it seems that you have never been without, but until the certificate has been granted, you are not a certificate holder.

 

Strangely enough, BASC have lawyers, and they say that you are in illegal possession of firearms if waiting for a renewal. It's so obvious and simple that it shouldn't take a lawyer to see that.

Somehow I can't see the BASC lawyers being wrong on this.

[al4x]

so in that case why do you fill in renewal forms and its not classed as an initial grant? and why aren't you pulled immediately your license expires?

[bedwards1966]

not that you had a lot of credibility but you lost the lot in comparing this case with someone with a renewal being processed. He had an illegal gun, no one in the military can bring back trophy weapons and stash them under the bed. The fact he had lots of excuses for why it wasn't his fault is irrelevant.

 

In the case of a license holder trying to comply with the law and the police licensing dept running slowly and advising you as you have an application in and it is their fault that they wouldn't prosecute its as far from similar as you can get.

You have one view licensing and normal cert holders have another thats it, the fact remains many thousands of us have been caught up in the technicality and taken the advice of licensing and not been locked up. Certainly in my case though it was a fortnight the new license was back dated from date of expiry of the last one so in their eyes I was never without one. We can talk what iffs all day the real point is what actually happens and a chief constable has ultimate charge of licensing and operations and if one try and trip the other up then its hardly going to help his job prospects.

 

Your completely missing the whole point.

He was punished for breaking the law, where he was clearly no threat to anyone and not doing any harm.

People on here seem to think that the justice system recognizes people who are doing no harm and are on a 'technicality', and that as a result they won't be prosecuted for breaking the law.

He suffered brain damage causing him to forget he had it (according to 'expert witnesses'), so he appears to have genuinely forgotten about it - yet despite his record of service to the country, he's still been punished.

So what chance do you think you have of avoiding a penalty if you say 'well yes, I knew I held them illegally, but as I was told I could and aren't doing any harm I thought you'd let me off? I'm a good bloke really.

 

'The fact he had lots of excuses for why it wasn't his fault is irrelevant.'

I'm very glad you understand that. It's just the same for any such offence, and if you get up in front of a court for the illegal possession of firearms because you certificate has expired the fact that you have an excuse is also irrelevant.

[Dirty Harry]

**************************************ATTENTION**********************************

Here are the news headlines......

1. The CPS will only prosecute a case that the police give to them.

2. The police would never bring a prosecution if you had sent in your renewal before the old certificate expired. It says so in the form.

3. If they did try they would also be liable under the use,cause, permit legislation as they have caused you to be in unlawful possession and potentially mislead you into thinking its ok.

4. No matter who stopped you at the roadside or wherever all firearms licensing matters will go through the firearms licensing department they would put their recommendations on the file and again they would never support a prosecution because they have a backlog.

5. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. It's full of people who don't know what they are on about.

6. If you have a question about firearms licensing why don't you ask the firearms licensing department? A bit of a no brainier really.

7. Lastly my SGC and FAC have been up for renewal recently. Both went more than a month over but it did not stop me shooting the same as normal. Maybe I should have arrested myself and seized my guns!

 

Please note this post if free from what if's and maybes.

 

Harry

 

[al4x]

Your completely missing the whole point.

He was punished for breaking the law, where he was clearly no threat to anyone and not doing any harm.

 

 

having an unsecured handgun under the bed not a risk you are unreal, its a risk if he goes off the rails and uses it during a matrimonial discussion, its a risk if one of his kids finds it and plays cowboys and indians with it the risks are real. The excuses fairly hard to believe, and its got no similarities at all to our licensing process

[bedwards1966]

so in that case why do you fill in renewal forms and its not classed as an initial grant? and why aren't you pulled immediately your license expires?

 

Because it's easier for the police to renew, as it only requires them to look back at anything that has cropped up since the last certificate was granted. If they did renewals the same as initial grants they'd have to dig up everything for your entire life again, which is a waste of effort, time and money.

 

You aren't pulled the moment your certificate expires because nobody has chosen to. But they most certainly can, and very likely will, prosecute someone over this. As I say, it only needs someone who wants to make a name for himself/herself, or who's anti gun, and you are caught committing a serious offence, incurring a very hefty penalty and almost certain loss of all future shooting.

[al4x]

about time we had some sense posted. Just in case the I think brigade missed it the first time

 

**************************************ATTENTION**********************************

Here are the news headlines......

1. The CPS will only prosecute a case that the police give to them.

2. The police would never bring a prosecution if you had sent in your renewal before the old certificate expired. It says so in the form.

3. If they did try they would also be liable under the use,cause, permit legislation as they have caused you to be in unlawful possession and potentially mislead you into thinking its ok.

4. No matter who stopped you at the roadside or wherever all firearms licensing matters will go through the firearms licensing department they would put their recommendations on the file and again they would never support a prosecution because they have a backlog.

5. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. It's full of people who don't know what they are on about.

6. If you have a question about firearms licensing why don't you ask the firearms licensing department? A bit of a no brainier really.

7. Lastly my SGC and FAC have been up for renewal recently. Both went more than a month over but it did not stop me shooting the same as normal. Maybe I should have arrested myself and seized my guns!

 

Please note this post if free from what if's and maybes.

 

Harry

[bedwards1966]

**************************************ATTENTION**********************************

Here are the news headlines......

1. The CPS will only prosecute a case that the police give to them.

Yes, and if the police give them a case, they are very likely to prosecute someone, even if someone else in the police thinks they shouldn't.

2. The police would never bring a prosecution if you had sent in your renewal before the old certificate expired. It says so in the form.

What form? They can't tell you it's OK to break the law, they don't have that authority. Fact.

3. If they did try they would also be liable under the use,cause, permit legislation as they have caused you to be in unlawful possession and potentially mislead you into thinking its ok.

Yes they would have some awkward questions to answer. But using that as a guarantee that your not going to be punished for breaking the law is very foolish.

4. No matter who stopped you at the roadside or wherever all firearms licensing matters will go through the firearms licensing department they would put their recommendations on the file and again they would never support a prosecution because they have a backlog.

No, you could be arrested on the spot. You could then get to the police station, and as they see you don't hold a certificate they could then charge you, end of. The firearms department would have no significant input into that - you may be charged before they even found out.

5. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. It's full of people who don't know what they are on about.

Yes, it's full of people who don't understand that the police can't make the laws.

6. If you have a question about firearms licensing why don't you ask the firearms licensing department? A bit of a no brainier really.

Well as they're telling people it's OK to break the law, what should I be asking them? They're known to get things wrong.

7. Lastly my SGC and FAC have been up for renewal recently. Both went more than a month over but it did not stop me shooting the same as normal. Maybe I should have arrested myself and seized my guns!

I'm not really concerned what you do, but you are illegally possessing firearms. That is a serious offence, and being told by anyone it's OK is not relevant.

 

Please note this post if free from what if's and maybes.

It's just based on the assumption that you'd not be charged with an offence that is so easily proven it's impossible to be found anything other than guilty because of the trouble the FLD would be in when the muck hit the fan.

 

Harry

 

The CPS will bring any charges they like against anyone they like, whether it's a genuine mistake or whether you were told 'it's OK' is meaningless to the them.

Edited November 15, 2012 by bedwards1966

[Dirty Harry]

 

 

The CPS will bring any charges they like against anyone they like, whether it's a genuine mistake or whether you were told 'it's OK' is meaningless to the them.

 

La la la la la la la la la la la la

I'm not listening because your talking ********.

La la la la la la la la la la la la

[al4x]

he is a frigging police officer and giving you the actual process you are now spouting rubbish just for the sake of it,

 

we are now back to the why has no one been charged when thousands of people have been in the situation

Edited November 15, 2012 by al4x

[Dirty Harry]

Al4x,

 

Don't bother, it's not worth it.

Like I said if the op has a question he should ask the firearms licensing department not the Internet.

They can be contacted by phone, email or letter. They are real people who know what they are on about.

 

I'm going shooting........with my GWP........a real Gundog!

 

Harry

 

[al4x]

enjoy your day is that pheasant or anything rough that comes along, with the hope it won't include any chickens and cats if your proper gundog is like mine

[chrispti]

I'm going to organise a Hampshire meet, I'm expecting hundreds to turn up and it will be held at Winchester prison.

 

Look forward to seeing everyone of you (folk with certificates in for renewal) there ........

[Dirty Harry]

enjoy your day is that pheasant or anything rough that comes along, with the hope it won't include any chickens and cats if your proper gundog is like mine

 

Rough shooting and yes he will take anything on. He hates cats and the last one that came in the garden I had to pull out of his mouth.

 

[Scully]

This is a great thread,and while I can see everyones point,one or two points are indisputable,the main one being that in the strict sense of the law,if you are in possession of guns and your license for those guns has expired,you are breaking the law,and nothing your issuing authority tells you can change this.That is a fact;BASC will tell you this,and the link someone posted from a lawyer(?) states this also.I have never disputed this fact.

I do not agree however(that even though the Police most certainly can prosecute)they would do so.This doesn't mean it couldn't or wont,or hasn't happened,but if the Police were looking for easy convictions(and the opportunity has existed for donkies years)then why isn't it happening on a daily basis?Why aren't the shooting press full of instances of this?Why aren't our shooting organisations shouting from the bell tower and doing something about it?And perhaps most importantly, WHY AREN'T WE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT?You needn't answer the last one;I know the answer.

Bedwards posted something along the lines of people getting what they deserve,and I agree,but I think we(shooters)get what we deserve because not many of us are prepared to stand up and say 'enough of this *****',we just idly comply with every little piece of ****** legislation and unreasonable rubbish those in authority care to dish out.

I would be more than willing to take this matter to its conclusion if I'm ever faced with prosecution following the assurances of issuing authorities or FEO that this wouldn't happen if I'm found in possession of my own firearms without a valid license,due to the incompetent service of a licensing authoritiy.(A service I was paying for for the benefit not of me,but of the general public) I wouldn't go quietly I can assure you.

[al4x]

enjoy the day sounds far better than my prospect of work and arguing with idiots when I get the odd spare moment

[Dekers]

enjoy the day sounds far better than my prospect of work and arguing with idiots when I get the odd spare moment

 

 

You mean you work in those odd moments you are not here, I thought that was when you just stopped to make a cuppa!....... :lol:

 

I think you will need to find a few more spare moments on this thread, its still going round in circles...

[al4x]

Its not we have come down to the conclusion if you are too scared to go outside your front door in case you get run over then you apply for a section 7 as lets face it the odds on getting run over are higher than being arrested for not having one.

 

Its irrelevant here as now most interviews are over the phone they are well and truly caught up and renewals are coming through early, my mates had his new ticket a month before expiry.

[Dekers]

Its not we have come down to the conclusion if you are too scared to go outside your front door in case you get run over then you apply for a section 7 as lets face it the odds on getting run over are higher than being arrested for not having one.

 

Its irrelevant here as now most interviews are over the phone they are well and truly caught up and renewals are coming through early, my mates had his new ticket a month before expiry.

 

:lol: My last from nearly a year ago came about a month early too, but the previous renewal didn't and I asked for, and got, a temporary. If my next is a problem and I have done everything correctly I will get another temporary, I never was good at odds, I prefer as sure as possible.

 

You guys can do what you like, I have stayed on the periferies of this one because it IS a big circle!

[al4x]

You guys can do what you like, I have stayed on the periferies of this one because it IS a big circle!

 

indeed funny thing is I seem to remember being told a section 7 would mean a load more work that would result in my renewal going to the bottom of the pile, I could have complained but I know they are under pressure and most of my dealings have been fine so just went with it and in the end I think it was a fortnight late it landed on the doormat but dated from expiry so who knows, that one wasn't signed their end so had to go back as well so it was a while back before everything just came off the printer

[Dekers]

indeed funny thing is I seem to remember being told a section 7 would mean a load more work that would result in my renewal going to the bottom of the pile, I could have complained but I know they are under pressure and most of my dealings have been fine so just went with it and in the end I think it was a fortnight late it landed on the doormat but dated from expiry so who knows, that one wasn't signed their end so had to go back as well so it was a while back before everything just came off the printer

 

Well mine just said a temporary will take as long to do as the proper one, so I said, "well I'll take the proper one then", got a temporary!

 

My experiences, my region, it will rain tomorrow frost the next day, then sun, then wind, then a new FEO turns up and the latest Temp at the Firearms Dept gets the push, the Manager goes on maternity leave, the printer runs out of ink, they lose the keys to the office......... !

Edited November 15, 2012 by Dekers

[al4x]

thats about it, tell you what though making them call people rather than visit on all the simple cases has certainly worked as far as speeding things up. Whether getting them in the office and sitting there with the paperwork and actually processing it rather than jaunting about for cups of tea and biscuits means they have shifted the backlog and are working well despite cut backs. Actually it seems to be working so well it can't last

[timps]

I find this an entertaining thread and do see both sides, whilst I totally agree it’s illegal to hold the firearms without a certificate and if you didn’t have it in writing from the police that you could do so, then you could be in trouble.

 

However with the letter I would suspect that you would have a very strong defence.

 

It is established case law that, while offering significant mitigation at sentence, there is no defence of entrapment in English law (R v Sang [1980] AC 402). However, it is also considered to be an abuse of court process for agents of the state to lure citizens into committing illegal acts and then seek to prosecute them for doing so. State-created entrapment of this sort will result in a stay of proceedings.

 

First entrapment is not a substantive defence in the sense of providing a ground upon which the accused is entitled to an acquittal. Secondly, the court has jurisdiction in a case of entrapment to stay the prosecution on the ground that the integrity of the criminal justice system would be compromised by allowing the state to punish someone whom the state itself has caused to transgress.

 

The last bits on both quotes prove my point, the argument would be that had he not received the letter from the police then he would have placed his guns with a licence holder / RDF and not broken the law.

 

It’s irrelevant whether the letter is legally correct or from the chief constable himself, it is from the firearms department (the state) and is the ONLY reason you broke the law, which in my opinion (as a layman mind you) would qualify in a stay of proceedings.

 

The CPS would know this and would act accordingly.

 

Without the letter this defence would be difficult to prove hence why BASC and solicitors say lodge your guns.

 

If it was me I would ask for an official letter like this and I would feel covered even though I am breaking the law, if they refuse to send one I would lodge my guns.

[JonathanL]

There are hundreds in Hampshire caught up in the backlog, and are just waiting out their renewal, as instructed.

 

As iv previously said, my flo is a serving officer not a civi. The letter acknowledging the receipt of the application I posted above is proof.

 

And the police will prosecute everyone, because they put them in that situation and advised them to keep hold of their guns...... Ok, I guess we'll all have to wait out on that one....

 

Seriously mate - are you just not bothering to read what you are repsonding to or do you just not understand it?

 

It doesn't matter what the police say. You are still breaking the law.

 

The police cannot offer a 'no prosecution' guarantee because they are not responsible for initiating prosecutions to start with.

 

If you have an accident with, or lose or damage an illegally held gun then you will not be insured.

 

If you take a mate out shooting who does not hold a certificate then their possession of your gun is unlawful as you do not have a certificate of your own.

 

J.