overandunder2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) No, you're missing my point. Cannabis abusers in the UK .....8.2%. Cannabis abusers in Singapore.....0.005%. Quite a difference eh? Now I'm no expert on the subject, but I would suggest that the harsh deterrents, as opposed to legalising cannabis, has played a part in this. The liberal approach to users only lasts so long. I would also suggest that their rigorous education programmes plays a part. I can't see then how legalising cannabis over here would be sending out a positive educational message? Perhaps you could explain? The BBC?......Really? i know singapore well there is a lot of drug education there and singaporeans for the most part are not interested in drugs, most arrests there are malays viet and thai couriers .the whole mentality of the singaporean is so different you could not compare it to the uk. also the whole country is about 35 miles wide and long much easier to police and govern especialy as it is a 1 party state, they recently revoked the mandatory death sentence Edited December 13, 2012 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 i know singapore well there is a lot of drug education there and singaporeans for the most part are not interested in drugs, most arrests there are malays viet and thai couriers .the whole mentality of the singaporean is so different you could not compare it to the uk. also the whole country is about 35 miles wide and long much easier to police and govern especialy as it is a 1 party state, they recently revoked the mandatory death sentence Thanks for that. Like I said I'm no expert, and it's obvious the education programmes seem to work. Just as a matter of interest, do you know what the education involves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpkiller Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Taking drugs is like playing Russian roulette, the legalization argument is like saying using less bullets or a smaller caliber will save money or lives rather than saying "STOP PUTTING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) its more than just schooling its the ethic there they are big on study asnd family values they do fear the law but many have no desire to break it as they have a sense of duty and failure is not an option there as there is no welfare. also drug use could get you cained and jailed at the very least. peir pressure is the reverse from here if you do bad at school your class mates think you an idiot not most popular kid in the class so that view also for the most part applies to drugs. drugs happen there in the clubs im told but iv never ever seen drug use in asia Edited December 13, 2012 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 its more than just schooling its the ethic there they are big on study asnd family values they do fear the law but many have no desire to break it as they have a sense of duty and failure is not an option there as there is no welfare. also drug use could get you cained and jailed at the very least. peir pressure is the reverse from here if you do bad at school your class mates think you an idiot not most popular kid in the class so that view also for the most part applies to drugs. drugs happen there in the clubs im told but iv never ever seen drug use in asia Interesting. Thank you. So, part of the education I would assume would be about the dangers of drugs, and the very real threat of the consequences of using them? I don't suppose legalisation would be entertained in any shape or form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) no it will not be legalized but the singapore model could not work here as we have far more people and much more land mass and they dont fear law or care for authority like singaporeans do so we could not enforce like singapore does. i doubt the education on drugs is that good it will be what the government wants to tell the kids which will be the worst points but it works for singapore. the crime level is tiny. times are changing there it was not so long ago they had censorship on movies but drug legalization never. what i can say its not just the death penalty the rest of asia has that and theres plenty of drugs there Edited December 13, 2012 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) Singapore is interesting , I'll look into it for sure, But fear their culture is far too different for direct comparison. But it is interesting, Thanks poontang for bringing it up. so what your saying gazz is ,,if a drug user was to break into your home and steal some stuff to sell to supply his habbit you would not want him jailed,,sorry but i would. Where have i said this?!? If people commit crimes on drugs, regardless of the criminality of drugs, they should face the law! Alcohol, Cannbis, Heroin or whatever! Guys, You might not agree with what im saying but don't misrepresent my arguments! At this point some of you are arguing a version of me that doesn't exist.. Its very strange... More news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20722527 The movement is huge guys, its massive in the states and its coming here. Disagree all you like but at least understand what your disagreeing with. Check the comments on the above article, Me and lumpy are not the only advocates. Edited December 14, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) The millions saved in legalising (well, At least decriminalising) drugs, Not just cannabis, Will be saved from the current millions (if not billions) of £'s associated with imprisonment of non violent drug users, Thats very clear (even if you dont agree with it) so no idea why you state that "we" "don't say how". The drug enforcement would focus on illegal trafficking (as we do now) but not users, So there is the saving. Not the same as now. Yes we would have to meet or atleast undercut the criminal market in costs (Could you source the flurishing alcohol black market? Ive personal heard of no such thing, Would be interesting to read). The same is for other drugs, Cannabis will be more difficult than other drugs to do this. The NHS will still have to treat OD's yes, As they do now. If we take portugals example though heroin use fell and rehab was up, so compared to now we would be treating LESS (hence more money saved!) The argument stacks up simply with decriminalization and the cost of imprisonment before you ever factor in tax . You might not agree with the arguments, But don't just ignore them when they have already been presented. BTW: Anyone who addresses an audience with 'Guys' or 'Team' is naturally assumed to be a winker where I last worked. The thing is, if you knew about drug enforcement from a first hand account, as in doing it, rather than theorising about it in college, you would know that there is hardly any cost associated with jailing users because the criminal justice system does everything that they can not to jail them. The only time users get sent to prison is where there are additional circumstances such as theft or violent behaviour or where there is evidence of intent to supply. The average British bobby doesn't give a schit about cannabis users because all they will get is a street caution, reprimand or put on some micky mouse scheme. Nobody kicks the door in of a user, only the suppliers, so that's another of your college theories out of the window. Why not legalise it and do away with all the expensive micky mouse schemes? Well why not chuck out the expensive micky mouse schemes, treat cannabis users as criminals and then they wouldn't walk around with it in their pockets knowing that an arrest won't lead to loss of employment, court case or imprisonment. Instead of de-criminalising it, let's see if enforcing the laws we already have will work without all the socio-meddling that goes off today. Edited December 14, 2012 by UKPoacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) BTW: Anyone who addresses an audience with 'Guys' or 'Team' is naturally assumed to be a winker where I last worked. The thing is, if you knew about drug enforcement from a first hand account, as in doing it, rather than theorising about it in college, you would know that there is hardly any cost associated with jailing users because the criminal justice system does everything that they can not to jail them. The only time users get sent to prison is where there are additional circumstances such as theft or violent behaviour or where there is evidence of intent to supply. The average British bobby doesn't give a schit about cannabis users because all they will get is a street caution, reprimand or put on some micky mouse scheme. Nobody kicks the door in of a user, only the suppliers, so that's another of your college theories out of the window. Why not legalise it and do away with all the expensive micky mouse schemes? Well why not chuck out the expensive micky mouse schemes, treat cannabis users as criminals and then they wouldn't walk around with it in their pockets knowing that an arrest won't lead to loss of employment, court case or imprisonment. Instead of de-criminalising it, let's see if enforcing the laws we already have will work without all the socio-meddling that goes off today. So paying police officers wages to go after drug users, The legal stuff that follows and prison time costs hardly nothing? well i never. And you are also talking about just cannabis, whistle i am talking about all drugs. You might know your ****, But your arguing (as i said) arguments i'm not even making. Its like your arguing with yourself. And keep belittling me, really shows how mature and wise you are. http://www.independe...rse-881271.html estimated £4bn. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19942378 Estimated £3bn and 15bn in there as well, Lots of numbers all in the billions. Some 42,000 people in England and Wales are sentenced annually for drug possession offences and about 160,000 given cannabis warnings, it says, which "amounts to a lot of time and money for police, prosecution and courts". Sure, costs hardly nothing. Edited December 14, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Well Clegg has jumped on the band wagon and with a bit of luck it will run him over at some point and we can be rid of him. It was news the other day http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/home-affairs-committee/news/121210-drugs-report/ One of the problems with all the "news" programmes and publications is selective journalism as they want to put their own spin on any story. The BBC and Independent sites above are just so obviously highly selective, as are all other news sources - that's what they are paid to do! It seems the Royal Commission or whoever is going to send another politician off on a two year holiday around the world and report back in 2015. I think I'll wait 'till the rain stops and then pop down the bookies and see if I can get a bet on "no change in policy in 2015". I reckon they would only give me evens. So I think we can put the debate to bed for another couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Things must have gone a bit quiet on the extra rights if you are Lesbian or Gay or of a different colour if Clegg is getting on the bandwagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 I was under the impression lib dems have always been pro decimalisation at least? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 So paying police officers wages to go after drug users, The legal stuff that follows and prison time costs hardly nothing? well i never. And you are also talking about just cannabis, whistle i am talking about all drugs. You might know your ****, But your arguing (as i said) arguments i'm not even making. Its like your arguing with yourself. And keep belittling me, really shows how mature and wise you are. http://www.independe...rse-881271.html estimated £4bn. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19942378 Estimated £3bn and 15bn in there as well, Lots of numbers all in the billions. Sure, costs hardly nothing. Twisting the facts again! If cannabis was legalised as you seem to want then the country would still have police officers and other agencies enforcing the manufacture, import and selling of other drugs including black market cannabis. It is the policing of hard drugs that costs the most money along with enforcing of large scale cannabis cultivation. The costs of enforcement on cannabis users, not growers or dealers, users, is next to nothing. Many police forces have dismantled their drugs units who dealt with small time cannabis cultivation because they could not get offenders through the courts due to the government's lax policies. It was a waste of time and money. Same with users. If they put as much time and money into prosecuting growers and users as they do re-rehabilitating them we wouldn't have the problems that we do now. Now, stick to the facts. You can't answer my points, that's why you are losing this debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) It is the policing of hard drugs that costs the most money Yes it is. Hence decimalisation/Legalisation The costs of enforcement on cannabis users, not growers or dealers, users, is next to nothing. Once again your talking about just cannabis, I'm talking about all drugs. I can't fully answer your points because your debating something different. Love this bit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20720122 in which one in five 11-15 year olds in this country now say they're trying drugs, where young people now are telling us that it's easier to get hold of drugs than it is to get hold of alcohol or tobacco. Maybe because dealers dont ask for ID? Edited December 14, 2012 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 I was under the impression lib dems have always been pro decimalisation at least? I don't think we are debating a return to pounds, shillings and pence. You are talking nonesense. There is no way that you can argue the case for legalisation of any drugs to save the country money or to take profits away from drug dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 The case is clear (hence the debates in the first place) the savings and money to be made is clear. Agree or disagree , I don't really care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 everybody except you and your mate disagrees gazz but you won't drop it :wacko: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 at least this one is more polite than the "red" thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 everybody except you and your mate disagrees gazz but you won't drop it :wacko: Yes only me sees this. Sure, Not the UK Drug Policy Commission, which undertook six years of research. No they dont see it (Hint they do: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19942378) or the millions of other people pushing for this world wide, No your right its just me and one other guy. Talk about head in the sand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted December 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 to say legalising drugs will make the taxman money is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard,,totally pathetic ,and if you ask me a very immature statement to say the least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Care to explain yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted December 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 i think it has been explained gazz and its pretty obvious that for me to explain it again would only be a waste of my typing ability, now that would be a shame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 to say legalising drugs will make the taxman money is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard,,totally pathetic ,and if you ask me a very immature statement to say the least Tobacco and Alcohol are legal, and they both make the taxman a fortune. Why would cannabis be any different ? I think some people are missing the point, legalisation or de-criminalisation are to combat the real problems that drugs cause, the problems that really affect us, the general public. Nasty people are selling drugs to kids, giving free samples to get people addicted, fighting turf wars that hurt innocent members of the public. Addicts are committing crimes because they are desperate for their next fix. These are the things we should be working to stop. De-criminalisation would instantly put a load of drug dealers out of business, the ones left would be the ones selling to kids, but with more police resources available we could catch and jail them, and jail them for a long time once there is more room in prisons that aren't full of junkies caught stealing to feed their habits. The junkies make room in the prisons for real criminals, so no need to let them out after half their sentence, meanwhile they get free needles and uncontaminated drugs, less HIV, you can even lump them all together somewhere (by putting the distribution centres out of town ) if you don't want them on your doorstep. Health advice and detox programmes could be available for those who really want to quit. Will it make more junkies ? You'd think so, but studies in other countries seem to suggest otherwise. You might still be worried that one of your kids could get involved, but they might anyway, at least this way they won't catch HIV and even if they never touch drugs there will be less chance of them having a sexual encounter with an HIV positive partner because there will be less of them about. So, less crime, less violence, less HIV, and eventually ( if foreign studies are to be believed ) less drugs. What's the problem with this approach ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Exactly catweazle. Evo, Even if you don't agree with legalisation you cannot claim the taxman wouldn't make money! That's ridiculous! If somebody buys a product off a registered company they will pay VAT, If somebody buys something off the street they wont. its not a hard concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 What are the gun laws like in those states? Makes sense legalise the lot and tax it, take the profit out of it for the criminal element let the dope heads get on with it they do anyway........it's not like it being illegal stops it is it.... You have got it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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