Petition to repeal 1997 and 1988 Gun Control acts...

[carpentermark]

And that is the real threat to shooting inthis country. The "my bit of shooting is ok so I don't need to bother about anyone elses", attitude is the one which will kill it stone dead!

 

J.

Ive always been under the impression that owning a shotgun is a right in this country and the Police have to give GOOD reason why you shouldnt have one,

and owning a Firearm (rifle etc) is not a right and its up to you to give GOOD reason why you should have one,

so with that in mind you give me a GOOD reason why we (derrick bird, raoul moat included) should be allowed such weapons as AK47s and the like in Britain?

 

i dont know about you, but the shootings we've had in this country recently have been bad enough, the last thing i want to see is another HUNGERFORD!

[JonathanL]

Ive always been under the impression that owning a shotgun is a right in this country and the Police have to give GOOD reason why you shouldnt have one,

and owning a Firearm (rifle etc) is not a right and its up to you to give GOOD reason why you should have one,

so with that in mind you give me a GOOD reason why we (derrick bird, raoul moat included) should be allowed such weapons as AK47s and the like in Britain?

 

i dont know about you, but the shootings we've had in this country recently have been bad enough, the last thing i want to see is another HUNGERFORD!

 

Well, your appreciation of the law in your first paragraph is wrong and isn't really relevant in any event.

 

It's a dangerous road to go down in saying things such as why we should we be allowed to own certain things because if you want to be strict about it there are probably very, very few people who should be allowed to own firearms as they have no actual need to do so. It could be very easily and cogently argued that unless you have a pressing need, such as employment, that you should not be allowed to own any firearm at all. If that were the case almost every person on this board would have no real reason to own a firearm as they do so, in the main, for recreational purposes.

 

J.

[carpentermark]

Well, your appreciation of the law in your first paragraph is wrong and isn't really relevant in any event.

 

It's a dangerous road to go down in saying things such as why we should we be allowed to own certain things because if you want to be strict about it there are probably very, very few people who should be allowed to own firearms as they have no actual need to do so. It could be very easily and cogently argued that unless you have a pressing need, such as employment, that you should not be allowed to own any firearm at all. If that were the case almost every person on this board would have no real reason to own a firearm as they do so, in the main, for recreational purposes.

 

J.

 

is that right?!

 

 

 

Shotguns (Section 2 Firearms under the 1968 Act as amended) are defined in UK law as smoothbore firearms with barrels not shorter than 24 inches (60 cm) and a bore not larger than 2 inches (5 cm) in diameter, no revolving cylinder, and either no magazine or a non-detachable magazine that is not capable of holding more than two cartridges,^[20] plus one in the chamber; shotguns with higher capacity require a firearm certificate. Shotguns thus defined are subject to a less rigorous certification process than for the full FAC; an applicant is not required by law to make a good case for being granted a certificate, but the police may withhold a certificate if they consider that the applicant does not have satisfactory security in place, or granting it would constitute a danger to public safety or to the peace.^[35] A certificate holder may possess as many shotguns as can be securely stored.

When applying for a firearm certificate, justification must be provided to the police for each firearm, and they are individually listed on the certificate by type, calibre, and serial number. A shotgun certificate similarly lists type, calibre and serial number, but permits possession of as many shotguns as can be safely accommodated. To gain permission for a new firearm, a "variation" must be sought, for a fee, unless the variation is made at the time of renewal, or unless it constitutes a one-for-one replacement of an existing firearm that will be disposed of. The certificate also sets out, by calibre, the maximum quantities of ammunition someone may buy or possess at any one time, and is used to record ammunition purchases (except where ammunition is bought to use immediately on a range under s11 or s15 of the Firearms Acts).

To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be convinced that a person has "good reason" to own each firearm, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, firearms licences are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting, collecting, or work-related reasons for ownership. Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

As much as I'd like it mate, no government is ever going to let us have handguns and semi auto centre fires again. It's hard enough keeping what we have.

 

This ^^^^^

[Mungler]

Sticking a petition in asking for semi auto rifles and handguns at this moment in time shows a complete and absolute lack of awareness. Indeed, a freaky lack of awareness that puts you firmly on the "nut nut" list.

 

Just for giggles, is my memory correct in that all massacres have been carried out by single men (or divorced men living a single life, as was the case with Bird)?

 

In this Country we have Ryan, Hamilton and Bird who were all singe men or living as single men. Over in the states, their list of nut nuts was also full of single men (exclusively IIRC).

 

So, who is for a "Ban single men from all forms of gun ownership petition". I reckon it's a winner and we trade for handguns back. I'd vote for that.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Mungler

[al4x]

That's got some mileage on it mungler, can I add single blokes who fantasise about pump actions to a form of super hot list.

[Mungler]

Single blokes who desperately want a handgun are top and semi auto rifles are second.

 

I'm afraid I can only offer you the number 3 spot - after all it's actually straightforward to get a pump action shotty and they didn't use any in Ultimate Force and so they are not *that* sexy to a Walting fantasist.

 

The fascination has to be with something that has little practical purpose, is cool and you can't have it. That sword that glows blue in the presence of Goblins for example would be on the list along with an Apache helicopter. Indeed, goddamit, my right to bear arms should include Apache helicopters and maybe A10's

Edited January 15, 2013 by Mungler

[Livefast123]

Personally I feel that the petition, although well meaning is ill timed and will do little to promote the sport in the UK. If anything it will enrage the neutral population, putting across the view that we can think of nothing but getting guns back when the rest of the world is still mourning the loss of those innocent little lives. I am all for taking issue with what the Government have done to the sport but there is a time and a place.

 

If anyone should be doing a petition, it should be BASC, NRA etc who could organise a national petitition that every shooter in the country regardless of preferences would sign.

 

I shoot pigeons mate, so sat in a hide with an AK47 or chasing bunnies around a field with a berreta 9mm aint really my thing so i wont be signing either.

 

There are many facets of shooting that do not interest me or I just don't like but I would defend YOUR right to do it.

 

Ive always been under the impression that owning a shotgun is a right in this country

 

Until the Government decide that it will no longer be, just as they came for hanguns and semi auto's.

 

Remember the Goverment aim is total disarmament of the populice.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Livefast123

[Mikaveli]

Sticking a petition in asking for semi auto rifles and handguns at this moment in time shows a complete and absolute lack of awareness. Indeed, a freaky lack of awareness that puts you firmly on the "nut nut" list.

 

Just for giggles, is my memory correct in that all massacres have been carried out by single men (or divorced men living a single life, as was the case with Bird)?

 

In this Country we have Ryan, Hamilton and Bird who were all singe men or living as single men. Over in the states, their list of nut nuts was also full of single men (exclusively IIRC).

 

So, who is for a "Ban single men from all forms of gun ownership petition". I reckon it's a winner and we trade for handguns back. I'd vote for that.

 

Married men couldn't go on the same kind of rampage even if they wanted to... my wife would never let me buy 3 guns and 6000 rounds within a few months.... she's already allocated the cash to a new bathroom. :(

[bedwards1966]

I shoot pigeons mate, so sat in a hide with an AK47 or chasing bunnies around a field with a berreta 9mm aint really my thing so i wont be signing either.

Just think how much more damage a **** like derrick bird wouldve done if instead of a shotty and single shot small calibre rifle, he went running round with an M16!

and with all the school shootings in America and that nutter in Norway I'm quite happy with things as they are.

Ive always been under the impression that owning a shotgun is a right in this country and the Police have to give GOOD reason why you shouldnt have one,

and owning a Firearm (rifle etc) is not a right and its up to you to give GOOD reason why you should have one,

so with that in mind you give me a GOOD reason why we (derrick bird, raoul moat included) should be allowed such weapons as AK47s and the like in Britain?

 

i dont know about you, but the shootings we've had in this country recently have been bad enough, the last thing i want to see is another HUNGERFORD!

 

 

Your attitude is the exact reason why we have such tight restrictions on our firearms.

 

Because you don't want a particular type of gun or to do a particular type of shooting you cannot be bothered to keep them going, as long as you can continue with your own narrow part of a much wider sport.

 

What will happen when the only shooters left are those who can have a shotgun for say pest control? When all the other shooting disciplines have gone because you couldn't be bothered to support them, who is going to stand up for your shooting?

 

 

I don't want a pistol, semi automatic center-fire, to do game shooting, target shooting, practical shotgunning and many more, but I am not stupid enough to sit back and let them all crumble, then expect those (former) shooters to then stand up for me when my shooting is under threat.

I personally see no need for a semi auto rifle for anything, but I'll accept that it may be nice for target shooters. Not what I want, but unless they are doing any harm I will do all I can to help retain them.

 

 

Nobody in their right mind wants another massacre, but to think that banning semi auto center-fire rifles helps is living in cuckoo land.

Take the shootings by Derrick Bird - killed 12, injured 11 - do you really think that in the several hours he was out he couldn't work the bolt on his rifle, or load the shotgun quick enough? Do you honestly believe that it would have made a major difference if he had a semi or auto with a larger magazine capacity? It's like saying it's sensible to restrict the amounts of ammunition we can buy and hold, nobody on a massacre has come close to using their guns/ammo to their full potential.

 

What needs to be focused on is not what was used in a massacre, but how that person got access to it. When the police give certificates to people who have a very shady background, that needs to be the focus for preventing future massacres, not restricting magazine capacities, action types or anything else you don't want.

[bedwards1966]

First they came for the full-bore target shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a full-bore target shooter.

 

Then they came for the pistol target shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a pistol target shooter.

 

Then they came for the small-bore target shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a small-bore target shooter.

 

Then they came for the wildfowlers,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a wildfowler.

 

Then they came for the PSGs',

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a PSG.

 

Then they came for the game shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a game shooter.

 

Then they came for the clay shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a clay shooter.

 

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

Edited January 15, 2013 by bedwards1966

[Mikaveli]

I don't want a pistol, semi automatic center-fire, to do game shooting, target shooting, practical shotgunning and many more, but I am not stupid enough to sit back and let them all crumble, then expect those (former) shooters to then stand up for me when my shooting is under threat.

I personally see no need for a semi auto rifle for anything, but I'll accept that it may be nice for target shooters. Not what I want, but unless they are doing any harm I will do all I can to help retain them.

 

Same here. There's many disciplines I'm not interested in personally, but every shooter should help to promote and defend each and every responsible area of shooting - we're in this together.

 

Lose one discipline, then they'll take the next one on the fringe. What percentage of shooters do we need to lose before the majority of gun shops and shooting grounds vanish?

 

First they came for the full-bore target shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a full-bore target shooter.

 

Then they came for the pistol target shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a pistol target shooter.

 

Then they came for the small-bore target shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a small-bore target shooter.

 

Then they came for the wildfowlers,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a wildfowler.

 

Then they came for the PSGs',

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a PSG.

 

Then they came for the game shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a game shooter.

 

Then they came for the clay shooters,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a clay shooter.

 

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[bedwards1966]

Regarding this petition, I think it will achieve noting. Aside from the bad timing, the government is not going to backtrack on this - what is in it for them?

 

All we can do is fight tooth and nail for every bit of shooting we are left with, regardless of whether we care for a particular discipline We must also do all we can to show that we are law abiding, respectable and ordinary folk. We can't change the anti's, but those who are neutral need educating, and hopefully we can introduce them to the sport and gain strength.

[Steppenwolf]

Due to the fact that the killer used a semi automatic bushmaster and this was plastered across the tv and Internet asking the government who will ultimately go with a policy that will win them vote will not allow this to go through. Not only was America grieving but the world was and has started to make people question why guns are legal or have little to no restraint against them.

 

He didn't use the Ar-15, later reports came out that the gun was found in the car only handguns were found on him.

 

More chance of throwing a snow ball at the sun,complete waste of time,just enjoy what you have,while you still have it.

 

Yes with an attitude like that it is no wonder the Uk gun community is in such a bad state.

[Steppenwolf]

Everything I have read says that it was.

J.

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/038664_Sandy_Hook_security_video_footage.html

"It was never brought into the school in the first place. As a result, it was not used in the shooting.

This was openly admitted in an NBC news report that has since been scrubbed and marginalized."

 

I shoot pigeons mate, so sat in a hide with an AK47 or chasing bunnies around a field with a berreta 9mm aint really my thing so i wont be signing either.

Just think how much more damage a **** like derrick bird wouldve done if instead of a shotty and single shot small calibre rifle, he went running round with an M16!

and with all the school shootings in America and that nutter in Norway I'm quite happy with things as they are.

 

Eventually they will come for the over and unders, all guns will be banned by the UN that si for civilian use.

 

"and owning a Firearm (rifle etc) is not a right and its up to you to give GOOD reason why you should have one,

so with that in mind you give me a GOOD reason why we (derrick bird, raoul moat included) should be allowed such weapons as AK47s and the like in Britain?"

 

Target shooting.

[Steppenwolf]

"Sticking a petition in asking for semi auto rifles and handguns at this moment in time shows a complete and absolute lack of awareness. Indeed, a freaky lack of awareness that puts you firmly on the "nut nut" list."

 

Yeah insult somebody when you lose the argument. Well do you think there is ever a good time to call for a rolback of legislation. Do you think the government one day will just go: Oh by the way I think considering the ban on handguns and semi-auto centrefire rifles didn't do much to the crime figurs, I guess we're going to let you have them back. No of course that is not going to happen, so who is having that "lack of awareness" that you speak of?

[Steppenwolf]

"If anything it will enrage the neutral population, putting across the view that we can think of nothing but getting guns back when the rest of the world is still mourning the loss of those innocent little lives. I am all for taking issue with what the Government have done to the sport but there is a time and a place."

 

When when all guns will have been banned? I find it offensive that they are using this tragedy in America to roll back hard earned freedoms that Americans earned. We only have to see what has happened in Britain.

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

Ive always been under the impression that owning a shotgun is a right in this country and the Police have to give GOOD reason why you shouldnt have one,

and owning a Firearm (rifle etc) is not a right and its up to you to give GOOD reason why you should have one,

so with that in mind you give me a GOOD reason why we (derrick bird, raoul moat included) should be allowed such weapons as AK47s and the like in Britain?

 

i dont know about you, but the shootings we've had in this country recently have been bad enough, the last thing i want to see is another HUNGERFORD!

 

Regarding the bit I've highlighted above: it is a utter myth that "everyone has the right to a shotgun" in this country. Rather, everyone has the right to apply for a shotgun license - there is no guarantee whatsoever that you will end up being permitted one. In the same way that you can't drive a car without license, you can't own a firearm of any description without a license. If it was a 'right' to own one, you'd simply just be able to walk into a shop and buy one - like a pack of cigarettes.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Lock Stock & Barrel

[Richard V]

Personally I feel that the petition, although well meaning is ill timed and will do little to promote the sport in the UK. If anything it will enrage the neutral population, putting across the view that we can think of nothing but getting guns back when the rest of the world is still mourning the loss of those innocent little lives. I am all for taking issue with what the Government have done to the sport but there is a time and a place.

 

If anyone should be doing a petition, it should be BASC, NRA etc who could organise a national petitition that every shooter in the country regardless of preferences would sign.

 

 

 

There are many facets of shooting that do not interest me or I just don't like but I would defend YOUR right to do it.

 

 

 

Until the Government decide that it will no longer be, just as they came for hanguns and semi auto's.

 

Remember the Goverment aim is total disarmament of the populice.

 

Indeed, as someone has said I have no interest on the FAC side of things but I'll certainly support my counterparts if they decide to ban firearms which come under a FAC.

 

A petition is as useless as a chocolate teapot IMO, over 100,000 signed a petition for a referendum on UK's membership of the European Union and look where that went. MP's 3 line whipped and the very notion of asking the public wheather they wanted the UK to remain independent or part of the United States of Europe laughed out of Westminster.

[JonathanL]

is that right?!

 

 

 

 

Shotguns (Section 2 Firearms under the 1968 Act as amended) are defined in UK law as smoothbore firearms with barrels not shorter than 24 inches (60 cm) and a bore not larger than 2 inches (5 cm) in diameter, no revolving cylinder, and either no magazine or a non-detachable magazine that is not capable of holding more than two cartridges,^[20] plus one in the chamber; shotguns with higher capacity require a firearm certificate. Shotguns thus defined are subject to a less rigorous certification process than for the full FAC; an applicant is not required by law to make a good case for being granted a certificate, but the police may withhold a certificate if they consider that the applicant does not have satisfactory security in place, or granting it would constitute a danger to public safety or to the peace.^[35] A certificate holder may possess as many shotguns as can be securely stored.

When applying for a firearm certificate, justification must be provided to the police for each firearm, and they are individually listed on the certificate by type, calibre, and serial number. A shotgun certificate similarly lists type, calibre and serial number, but permits possession of as many shotguns as can be safely accommodated. To gain permission for a new firearm, a "variation" must be sought, for a fee, unless the variation is made at the time of renewal, or unless it constitutes a one-for-one replacement of an existing firearm that will be disposed of. The certificate also sets out, by calibre, the maximum quantities of ammunition someone may buy or possess at any one time, and is used to record ammunition purchases (except where ammunition is bought to use immediately on a range under s11 or s15 of the Firearms Acts).

To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be convinced that a person has "good reason" to own each firearm, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, firearms licences are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting, collecting, or work-related reasons for ownership. Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm. The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years

 

From whence did you get that? It's usual to note the source.

 

The fact is that you were wrong and that piece gives a not entirely correct picture. It is not the case that the police have to offer a good reason why your shouldn't have a shotgun. They have to show that you do not actually have good reason to have a certificate. A subtle distinction but an important one because it demonstrates that you still actually need 'good reason' to have a shotgn cert.

 

You have a right in law to either certificate as long as you meet the statutory criteria which applies to each. The criteria are essentially identical the only difference being that you actually have to demonstrate that you have good reason for an FAC and the police have to demonstrate that you have no good reason in order to refuse you an SGC. In addition, the notion of 'good reason' is given a rather wide statutory definition in the case of an SGC in that the Act specifically says that even an intention never to use the guns nor to lend them to anyone else is not to be taken that the applicant is lacking good reason.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Regarding the bit I've highlighted above: it is a utter myth that "everyone has the right to a shotgun" in this country. Rather, everyone has the right to apply for a shotgun license - there is no guarantee whatsoever that you will end up being permitted one. In the same way that you can't drive a car without license, you can't own a firearm of any description without a license. If it was a 'right' to own one, you'd simply just be able to walk into a shop and buy one - like a pack of cigarettes.

 

Nope, you are wrong - see my explanation above. If you meet the statutory criteria in the Act then the police must grant the certificate, it is not a matter of being 'permitted' if by that you mean that it is a discretionary power of the police to issue a cert. It is exactly the same with driving licences, if you meet the requirements of the law, one of which which involves passing a test, the DVLA must issue a licence.

 

J.

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

Nope, you are wrong - see my explanation above. If you meet the statutory criteria in the Act then the police must grant the certificate, it is not a matter of being 'permitted' if by that you mean that it is a discretionary power of the police to issue a cert. It is exactly the same with driving licences, if you meet the requirements of the law, one of which which involves passing a test, the DVLA must issue a licence.

 

J.

 

You prove my point with your every post post mate.

 

IF you meet the criteria is not the same as having a "right" to have a shotgun. If, denotes a precondition - ergo, not a right, as there are then concomitant qualifying criteria.

 

Like I say, everyone has the right to apply for a license - they do not have an automatic right to own a shotgun. To be honest, you needless pedantry became quite tedious a while back - alas, it defines you.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Lock Stock & Barrel

[overandunder2012]

http://www.naturalne...eo_footage.html

"It was never brought into the school in the first place. As a result, it was not used in the shooting.

This was openly admitted in an NBC news report that has since been scrubbed and marginalized."

 

 

if thats true the chief medical examiner lied i saw him on tv at the time after the autopsy's stating the long gun was used

[Mungler]

Errrr any nut nut wanting to waste hours on an e-petition can crack on. Absolute waste of time. Massively naive and a complete lack of awareness IMHO but hey, everyone needs a hobby / waste of time eh?

 

Semi auto rifles are gone for good as too handguns. Get used to it, and move on.

 

Don't kid yourself that by seeking the legalisation of semi auto rifles and handguns is helping shooting. Fighting to keep what we have would be a better and more realistic pursuit.

 

Don't let me stop anyone getting all spitting over the screen angry about this recurring topic. Seriously, go mad. Launch as many pointless ePetitions as your electricity and internet providers will allow you are only wasting your own time and energy.

[Steppenwolf]

You are so right Mungler....i should just roll over and give my guns in afterall they will only probably take them in a few years anyway right? LOL

 

"Semi auto rifles are gone for good as too handguns. Get used to it, and move on." - No I won't get used to it..ever.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Steppenwolf