Organ donation and the B.M.A idea

[JonathanL]

You have been heard. We all have an opportunity to elect our governments and the one which was elected has decided to bring in the current system. It isn't reasonable to argue that you aren't being listened to simply because something has been introduced which you personally don't agree with.

 

There doesn't seem to be a huge level of objection to this which suggets that most people probably agree with it or don't specifically object to it. It's the will of the majority and in a democracy the majority gets to tell the rest what they have to accept to a certain degree. Like I say, if you don't like it then opt-out. It's hardly a massive deal and, although you may not like having to do it, it seems a reasonable and proportunate imposition to place on someone for the greater benefit of society in general.

 

Please don't accuse me of drifting off the point when I was replying to points which you raised in the first place. You brought up the issue of mistakes being made as part of your objection to the new system and I responded to that.

 

Society has every right to tell people what they may do with their bodies. It is illegal not to wear a seat belt because if you get injured in an accident then you will probably cost society more to repair. As to dead bodies specifically, if you die in certain circumstances your body is subject to an autopsy and no one can enforce an objection to that. It's deemed a benefit to society that that is the case. The new opt-out system is deemed a benefit so it's been introduced.

 

J.

Edited July 7, 2013 by JonathanL

[welsh1]

You have been heard. We all have an opportunity to elect our governments and the one which was elected has decided to bring in the current system. It isn't reasonable to argue that you aren't being listened to simply because something has been introduced which you personally don't agree with.

 

There doesn't seem to be a huge level of objection to this which suggets that most people probably agree with it or don't specifically object to it. It's the will of the majority and in a democracy the majority gets to tell the rest what they have to accept to a certain degree. Like I say, if you don't like it then opt-out. It's hardly a massive deal and, although you may not like having to do it, it seems a reasonable and proportunate imposition to place on someone for the greater benefit of society in general.

 

Please don't accuse me of drifting off the point when I was replying to points which you raised in the first place. You brought up the issue of mistakes being made as part of your objection to the new system and I responded to that.

 

J.

Again you just don't get it.it is wrong that you have now something imposed on your body and you have to opt out to stop it if you wanted to.it is my body ,i will abuse it and tattoo it and do so whatever i wish to do with it and no government should have any say.

 

At this moment the government is saying that i can use the body but ultimately it is theirs,unless i let them know that i do not want them to own the body.And that is the rub,IT IS MY BODY NOT THEIRS.

 

I have had enough.

If someone else wants to keep this thread going please post, i am stopping now as myself and j will never agree and it is pointless.

[The Essex Hunter]

Again you just don't get it.it is wrong that you have now something imposed on your body and you have to opt out to stop it if you wanted to.it is my body ,i will abuse it and tattoo it and do so whatever i wish to do with it and no government should have any say.

 

At this moment the government is saying that i can use the body but ultimately it is theirs,unless i let them know that i do not want them to own the body.And that is the rub,IT IS MY BODY NOT THEIRS.

 

I have had enough.

If someone else wants to keep this thread going please post, i am stopping now as myself and j will never agree and it is pointless.

 

Shot any thing lately Jonathan?

Oh sorry it’s the off topic….my mistake I could have sworn there was post in Sporting Shooting Videos by you..

 

 

TEH

[FalconFN]

 

Shot any thing lately Jonathan?

Oh sorry it’s the off topic….my mistake I could have sworn there was post in Sporting Shooting Videos by you..

 

 

TEH

TEH, you're doing it again. You are assuming 2 things;

 

1 Because a person doesn't post pictures of dead animals they don't shoot.

 

2 People like to see pictures of dead animals.

 

I know what a dead fox looks like and I don't have any urges to see yours or any others.

 

Just because you don't agree with someone dosen't mean you have to try to belittle them.

[Pole Star]

I have a feeling JL is on the waiting list ? it seems to be such an obsession with him . No offence ,so if he is I would like to wish him good luck but that means I will have to wish some poor soul bad luck !.

 

No easy answer ? the sooner artificial organs are developed the better .

 

JL modern democracy is not government via opinion poll its government by debate or at least that was how it was supposed to be but all to often once the party is in they seem to do as the party members wish & sod the rest of us !.

Off Topic , Remember the combined measles jab ? forced on the plebs but the Blairs . One law for them & a different one for the plebs who voted for them .

 

My corpse is mine & belongs too me & my family & not a grubby politician .

Edited July 7, 2013 by Pole Star

[The Essex Hunter]

TEH, you're doing it again. You are assuming 2 things;

 

1 Because a person doesn't post pictures of dead animals they don't shoot.

 

2 People like to see pictures of dead animals.

 

I know what a dead fox looks like and I don't have any urges to see yours or any others.

 

Just because you don't agree with someone dosen't mean you have to try to belittle them.

 

Oh.....

 

 

TEH

[FalconFN]

I have a feeling JL is on the waiting list ? it seems to be such an obsession with him . No offence ,so if he is I would like to wish him good luck but that means I will have to wish some poor soul bad luck !. Everyone will die, some too early. That is a fact of life and being on a donor list won't change that fact - what it will do is allow someone else to live despite the early death of someone else. Wishing people bad luck is irrelevant to what happens in the real world.

 

No easy answer ? the sooner artificial organs are developed the better . Long way off yet, unfortunately.

 

JL modern democracy is not government via opinion poll its government by debate or at least that was how it was supposed to be but all to often once the party is in they seem to do as the party members wish & sod the rest of us !. Actually democracy IS government by opinion poll, that is why we vote.

Off Topic , Remember the combined measles jab ? forced on the plebs but the Blairs . One law for them & a different one for the plebs who voted for them . What the flibberty-jibbets are you on about? The combined MMR works but some self-proclaimed expert suggested is wasn't (he has now been struck off) meaning hundreds of adults will now suffer the long lasting effects of these illnesses for no reason.

 

My corpse is mine & belongs too me & my family & not a grubby politician . Your corpse doesn't belong to you - you would be dead. THIS new opt-out system WILL give you ultimate say on what happens to your body, unlike now where your family gets to decide, and that decision has to be taken at the most stressful and emotionally charged time of their lives.

[Vince Green]

I have had occasion to walk through the corridor of the heart transplant wing at Harefield Hospital a couple of times in the past year. Only because its between where I go and the car park. There are kids in there in wheelchairs and a lot of young people. It does make you think.

 

A man I know is dying of heart failure, he's in his early 60s and there is no suggestion its self inflicted. A heart transplant would save him and he is officially on the waiting list but he is disarmingly realistic about his chances - none. Priority always goes to the youngest quite rightly but the big limitation is on beds and resources. If they get more hearts they are still going to be limited by the other constraints.

[JonathanL]

I have a feeling JL is on the waiting list ? it seems to be such an obsession with him . No offence ,so if he is I would like to wish him good luck but that means I will have to wish some poor soul bad luck !.

 

Look mate, this is a discussion forum. The point is to discuss things. I'm a very long way from being 'obsessed' by this issue. It's an interesting discussion and that's about it.

 

It's very noticible that people often try to categorise the people they are debating against. There seems in some people the need to be able to fit their oponent into some specific category in order to devalue what they are saying; to suggest that the person has some reason (ulterior or otherwise) for their opinion, rather than actually to debate what they have to say. If what you say is correct then it allows you to satisfy yourself that I have a vested interest in holding the opinion that I do not because I actually believe it.

 

No easy answer ? the sooner artificial organs are developed the better .

 

I agree. However, at present they haven't been developed and we have to deal with the situation as it currently stands.

 

JL modern democracy is not government via opinion poll its government by debate or at least that was how it was supposed to be but all to often once the party is in they seem to do as the party members wish & sod the rest of us !.

 

That's precisely what we had. The members of the Welsh Assembley were voted in to debate issues like this on behalf of the Welsh electorate they did debate the issue and passed a law follwing that debate.

Off Topic , Remember the combined measles jab ? forced on the plebs but the Blairs . One law for them & a different one for the plebs who voted for them .

 

Total rubbish. No vaccination has ever been forced upon anyone in this country, as far as I'm aware. Don't you remember the whole point at the time was that many parents refused to have their kids vacinated with it. On the wider but related issue of consent over your own body; if those parents had not refused to allow their kids to have the vaccination we would not be experiencing the current raised levels of the disease. That in it's self is a good argument to actually force people into having it (not that I would agree with it) for the wider public good.

 

I can't recall whether the Blairs actially did allow their kid to have the jab. I do recall though at the time they wouldn't say one way or the other. This was one of the rare occasions in which I strongly agreed with them. Their childs medical history is private and it should not be used for cheap political purposes.

 

My corpse is mine & belongs too me & my family & not a grubby politician .

 

Sorry but you are grossly misinformed. Your corpse when you are deceased does not belong to anyone at all. You have no right to dictate what happens to it. There is not even any legal means by which you can dictate how it is disposed of; if you stipulate that you should be cremated and your next of kin decide to shove you in the ground then in the ground you will go.

 

I don't understand why people have this impression that this new system somehow means that your remains 'belong' to politicians, the government or anyone esle. They do not currently and the situation is not changing. People are starting to lose sight of what is actually changing. The one and only thing which is happening is that when you die the law will presume that you consent to donating your organs. If you do not consent then you just have to say so. Very simple and eminently reasonable, when you think about it. It's actually not much different from the presumption that you consent to emergency treatment. Lots of people object to receiving a blood transfusion but if they don't say they object then they are assumed to consent. The law takes the view of presemed consent because it is a benefit to the greater public good to do so. The same is now true of dead bodies in Wales.

[Gordon R]

Jonathan - whatever the rights or wrongs of the system, your patronising posts are reaching a new low. For someone with your track record - that is something of an achievement.

 

Any chance of an answer on the school question?

[Pole Star]

 

I have a feeling JL is on the waiting list ? it seems to be such an obsession with him . No offence ,so if he is I would like to wish him good luck but that means I will have to wish some poor soul bad luck !.

 

Look mate, this is a discussion forum. The point is to discuss things. I'm a very long way from being 'obsessed' by this issue. It's an interesting discussion and that's about it.

 

It's very noticible that people often try to categorise the people they are debating against. There seems in some people the need to be able to fit their oponent into some specific category in order to devalue what they are saying; to suggest that the person has some reason (ulterior or otherwise) for their opinion, rather than actually to debate what they have to say. If what you say is correct then it allows you to satisfy yourself that I have a vested interest in holding the opinion that I do not because I actually believe it.

 

No easy answer ? the sooner artificial organs are developed the better .

 

I agree. However, at present they haven't been developed and we have to deal with the situation as it currently stands.

 

JL modern democracy is not government via opinion poll its government by debate or at least that was how it was supposed to be but all to often once the party is in they seem to do as the party members wish & sod the rest of us !.

 

That's precisely what we had. The members of the Welsh Assembley were voted in to debate issues like this on behalf of the Welsh electorate they did debate the issue and passed a law follwing that debate.

Off Topic , Remember the combined measles jab ? forced on the plebs but the Blairs . One law for them & a different one for the plebs who voted for them .

 

Total rubbish. No vaccination has ever been forced upon anyone in this country, as far as I'm aware. Don't you remember the whole point at the time was that many parents refused to have their kids vacinated with it. On the wider but related issue of consent over your own body; if those parents had not refused to allow their kids to have the vaccination we would not be experiencing the current raised levels of the disease. That in it's self is a good argument to actually force people into having it (not that I would agree with it) for the wider public good.

 

I can't recall whether the Blairs actially did allow their kid to have the jab. I do recall though at the time they wouldn't say one way or the other. This was one of the rare occasions in which I strongly agreed with them. Their childs medical history is private and it should not be used for cheap political purposes.

 

My corpse is mine & belongs too me & my family & not a grubby politician .

 

Sorry but you are grossly misinformed. Your corpse when you are deceased does not belong to anyone at all. You have no right to dictate what happens to it. There is not even any legal means by which you can dictate how it is disposed of; if you stipulate that you should be cremated and your next of kin decide to shove you in the ground then in the ground you will go.

 

I don't understand why people have this impression that this new system somehow means that your remains 'belong' to politicians, the government or anyone esle. They do not currently and the situation is not changing. People are starting to lose sight of what is actually changing. The one and only thing which is happening is that when you die the law will presume that you consent to donating your organs. If you do not consent then you just have to say so. Very simple and eminently reasonable, when you think about it. It's actually not much different from the presumption that you consent to emergency treatment. Lots of people object to receiving a blood transfusion but if they don't say they object then they are assumed to consent. The law takes the view of presemed consent because it is a benefit to the greater public good to do so. The same is now true of dead bodies in Wales.

 

JL your red wording tell us that you are clearly obsessed but I will not change my opinion "PRESUMED CONSENT IS A FANCY WORD FOR FOR THEFT WITH OUT A LOVED ONES CONSENT " which ever way you look at it . With my age & injuries ect I wont qualify weather I sign or not .

[JonathanL]

Jonathan - whatever the rights or wrongs of the system, your patronising posts are reaching a new low. For someone with your track record - that is something of an achievement.

 

Any chance of an answer on the school question?

So, true to form, it's a case of attack the person because you can't attack what they say.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

JL your red wording tell us that you are clearly obsessed but I will not change my opinion "PRESUMED CONSENT IS A FANCY WORD FOR FOR THEFT WITH OUT A LOVED ONES CONSENT " which ever way you look at it . With my age & injuries ect I wont qualify weather I sign or not .

No, the red is to distinguish my reply from your original point. It could be suggested that you are obsessed with this argument on the basis of you feeling the need to use shouty capitals as well.

 

In your mind it may equate to theft, and you certainly seem to have convinced your self of that, but that is not what it means in the real world. It means that the person is presumed to have consented unless there is evidence to the contrary. Nothing more.

 

J.

Edited July 7, 2013 by JonathanL

[The Essex Hunter]

So, true to form, it's a case of attack the person because you can't attack what they say.

 

J.

 

More the case of....

 

TEH

[Pole Star]

 

I have a feeling JL is on the waiting list ? it seems to be such an obsession with him . No offence ,so if he is I would like to wish him good luck but that means I will have to wish some poor soul bad luck !. Everyone will die, some too early. That is a fact of life and being on a donor list won't change that fact - what it will do is allow someone else to live despite the early death of someone else. Wishing people bad luck is irrelevant to what happens in the real world.

 

No easy answer ? the sooner artificial organs are developed the better . Long way off yet, unfortunately.

 

JL modern democracy is not government via opinion poll its government by debate or at least that was how it was supposed to be but all to often once the party is in they seem to do as the party members wish & sod the rest of us !. Actually democracy IS government by opinion poll, that is why we vote.

Off Topic , Remember the combined measles jab ? forced on the plebs but the Blairs . One law for them & a different one for the plebs who voted for them . What the flibberty-jibbets are you on about? The combined MMR works but some self-proclaimed expert suggested is wasn't (he has now been struck off) meaning hundreds of adults will now suffer the long lasting effects of these illnesses for no reason.

 

My corpse is mine & belongs too me & my family & not a grubby politician . Your corpse doesn't belong to you - you would be dead. THIS new opt-out system WILL give you ultimate say on what happens to your body, unlike now where your family gets to decide, and that decision has to be taken at the most stressful and emotionally charged time of their lives.

 

Every one will die but what a transplant unit wants is some young fit poor soul who has just been killed & not a person who has died of old age or what ever & time is of the essence , so someone has to be killed & I think in most cases they are road victims ?.

 

Cast your mind back Falcon FN a prime minister some time ago growled at those who criticized him " WE DON'T GOVERN BY OPINION POLL ! " I think it was the TONY B.LIAR himself anyone remember ?.

If we were governed by opinion poll you could say good bye to gun ownership !!!.

 

As for artificial organ development its proceeding at an astonishing rate so lets all hope it will be here sooner rather than later .

 

And my remains belong to me & my loved ones & if they want to bury me , burn, or dump me at sea its up to them .

 

Its a good evening to go down to the loch for a trout again .

[Gordon R]

Jonathan - anyone with an ounce of intelligence can spot flaws in your reasoning. You blindly research information and post it as absolute fact.

 

The clue to your make-up is in your lack of judgement. Everything is black and white to you. Even in law, that is rarely the case.

 

PS - asking you if you are a schoolboy is not an attack. It is a straight question which you appear to be evading. I wonder why. :lol:

[JonathanL]

Jonathan - anyone with an ounce of intelligence can spot flaws in your reasoning.

 

Yet you don't feel the need to provide any.

 

You blindly research information and post it as absolute fact.

 

Urm...right...having difficulty finding a problem with that. Isn't research and presentation of the results kinbd of what you're supposed to do as part of a debate?

[FalconFN]

 

 

You blindly research information and post it as absolute fact.

 

Urm...right...having difficulty finding a problem with that. Isn't research and presentation of the results kinbd of what you're supposed to do as part of a debate?

 

Wrong, this is PW so partial fact combined with gut and knee-jerk reactions trump any consideration of facts, and if you are lucky you get some healthy paranoia thrown in too.

 

If you feel it is wrong, then that is fine as it is your opinion, if you think it is right, again good for you, but if you don't like the fact that someone else holds a different opinion and go out of your way to ignore their arguments and start name calling, then that is just petty, small-minded ignorance.

[The Essex Hunter]

 

Jonathan - anyone with an ounce of intelligence can spot flaws in your reasoning.

 

Yet you don't feel the need to provide any.

 

You blindly research information and post it as absolute fact.

 

Urm...right...having difficulty finding a problem with that. Isn't research and presentation of the results kinbd of what you're supposed to do as part of a debate?

 

 

 

 

It is a shame you cant debate all the parts of this thread…..people have challenged you on a number of subjects with some very poor responses from yourself.

 

TEH

[JonathanL]

 

 

 

It is a shame you cant debate all the parts of this thread..people have challenged you on a number of subjects with some very poor responses from yourself.

 

TEH

Such as?

 

J.

[Pole Star]

 

Give it a rest JL the thread has gone on long enough now & IF you need a new liver or some other spare part put an ad on the net some where maybe face book ? & the family of some poor soul might see it & offer you one .

 

But this thread is dead & going nowhere

Regards & good luck Pole Star.

[vulpicide]

I need a new heart any offers ? the lack of organs would be resolved if they made everyone with a bike licence be a donor.

[Penelope]

Essex Hunter and Gordon R - Give it a rest please, you are in danger of making yourselves appear fools.

[vulpicide]

Any one who has a Heart .

[Gordon R]

Penelope - please don't patronise me. You are beginning to remind me of Jonathan.

 

As for making a fool of oneself - you appear to have cornered that market.