Should 'stigma' make a comeback

[keg]

Good point to debate on an evening, we really need to in a pub pint in hand. Same with many points on the "off topics" bit, your views ( all of you out there) have changed some of my views in the last year or so.

[Oli]

Now making prisoners work for free im all for and also making benefit claimants work for their crust im also in favour of.

[alexr]

What if we were to make the shift towards earned human rights. If you are convicted of infringing some one elses human rights, yours are suspended, or reduced for a period of time.

Might allow the extradition of a troublesome preacher or two

 

 

Not sure how far apart Nazis and the communists were Alexr, two sides of the same circle that met in the middle..In my youth I read some of the Sven Hassel books and many times in there it was pointed out that the same people were in different uniforms.

I have always regarded the political spectrum as a circle and felt that the reasons the NAZI's and the Soviets hated each other so much was because they had so much in common.

[unapalomablanca]

Isnt that what we have a judicial system and prisons for, who would make the decision on who should go into the farm. What happens if the person who runs them decided that they want you and your family to work in them?

I just think that a lot of innocent decent members of society are getting hurt, intimidated, violated and that incudes all of us. What is on offer now isnt working, why cant we get our heads out of the sand and deal with the bad people. Its not political, its just sorting out right from wrong. I hate naziism and communism. It always bugs me how decent debate is always spoilt by allegations of extremism. I think if you are not willing to solve then you are a big part of the problem.

[alexr]

I dont think any one is accusing any one else here of extreemism, but it is easy to see how the use of stigma, how ever well intentioned could be missused by a less caring society.

OH dear.... are my liberal credentials showing.......

[Mungler]

Good point to debate on an evening, we really need to in a pub pint in hand. Same with many points on the "off topics" bit, your views ( all of you out there) have changed some of my views in the last year or so.

 

 

The fact that you can engage in a debate, give something some thought and change your mind is healthy.

 

Some more round here might want to give it a little go - where is Flynny tonight?

 

In answer to the original question : "Yes".

 

You know the world has gone mad when girls aspire to getting spit roasted by footballers to get fame and a spread in the Sun. When did that become something to aspire to let alone something to even tell anyone about.

[FalconFN]

There are 2 different points that your raised, social stigma and the response of the authorities.

 

Social stigma only works when the people that YOU care about stigmatise you and the people you are talking about live with others of the same mindset.

 

The authorities should be looking at different ways to deal with criminals that, at present, don't seem bothered by the current methods. Taking away money = more robberies and more kids inpoverty, so that won't work.

 

One way could be to give them menial 'jobs' that require them to make an effort, if they work hard they get rewarded with a shorter sentence or cash bonus, if they don't then the work 'contract' is extended and continues unpaid. The more effort they put in the shorter the time they work.

 

In time this could give them a Pavlovian resopse to hard work.....

 

....or it could just be a massive waste of time And money. But its got to be better than handing out ASBOs.

[Oli]

I just think that a lot of innocent decent members of society are getting hurt, intimidated, violated and that incudes all of us. What is on offer now isnt working, why cant we get our heads out of the sand and deal with the bad people. Its not political, its just sorting out right from wrong. I hate naziism and communism. It always bugs me how decent debate is always spoilt by allegations of extremism. I think if you are not willing to solve then you are a big part of the problem.

 

I wasnt suggesting you were extremist, i just dont agree that locking people up without a judicial process is the answer, if you erode human rights you set a precedent and erode everyone's and history has shown the abuses that it can lead to . I do think we should be stricter with enforcing the laws and applying the punishments we currently have though, ASBOs are a waste of time and prison shouldnt be a life choice for cheap accommodation. I do my part by working hard, creating jobs, voting, educating my offspring and saving for their future. A lot of it is just a frame of mind isnt it, what are the exact problems you are looking to address?

[unapalomablanca]

I wasnt suggesting you were extremist, i just dont agree that locking people up without a judicial process is the answer, if you erode human rights you set a precedent and erode everyone's and history has shown the abuses that it can lead to . I do think we should be stricter with enforcing the laws and applying the punishments we currently have though, ASBOs are a waste of time and prison shouldnt be a life choice for cheap accommodation. I do my part by working hard, creating jobs, voting, educating my offspring and saving for their future. A lot of it is just a frame of mind isnt it, what are the exact problems you are looking to address?

The denigration of society by an unchecked large minority of people, Frame of mind is fine until you become a victim. It's becoming easier to be that victim all the time. I hope you dont ever come across the types i know that are flourishing out there, with little fear of our weak laws.

[alexr]

A lot of it is just a frame of mind isnt it

 

Yes Oli it is. You hope for a better life for yourself and an even better life for your kids.

They on the other hand would see you as a fool for wanting that.

[Gimlet]

Surely stigma is shame. Shame cannot be imposed. To feel it a person needs to be conscious of having done wrong. We've spent the last forty years in this country convincing people they are victims of circumstance not masters of their own behaviour. Simultaneously collective social pride has shrank away. We are a splintered society. We no longer care what others think. To censure the conduct of others is to be judgemental.

We've taught a generation of people that stigma is a form of prejudice and an affront to individual rights. The cult of the individual, as we have been incessently reminded in the last few days, has been attributed to Margaret Thatcher, but the ironic truth is that it has been stoked by the Left in its quest to engineer egalitarianism. A lesson surely that trying to impose ways of living and ways of thinking have untold consequences.

It is a great pity. Caring what others think is a powerful motivating force. It used to discourage teenage pregnancy, public drunkenness, excessive debt and consumption and all sorts of petty antisocial acts and discourtesies. Not any more.

[unapalomablanca]

Surely stigma is shame. Shame cannot be imposed. To feel it a person needs to be conscious of having done wrong. We've spent the last forty years in this country convincing people they are victims of circumstance not masters of their own behaviour. Simultaneously collective social pride has shrank away. We are a splintered society. We no longer care what others think. To censure the conduct of others is to be judgemental.

We've taught a generation of people that stigma is a form of prejudice and an affront to individual rights. The cult of the individual, as we have been incessently reminded in the last few days, has been attributed to Margaret Thatcher, but the ironic truth is that it has been stoked by the Left in its quest to engineer egalitarianism. A lesson surely that trying to impose ways of living and ways of thinking have untold consequences.

It is a great pity. Caring what others think is a powerful motivating force. It used to discourage teenage pregnancy, public drunkenness, excessive debt and consumption and all sorts of petty antisocial acts and discourtesies. Not any more.

Thats the bit i mean when you said "caring what others think is a powerful motivating force" and then when someone is out of order we should use stigma and 'send them to coventry'. Some societies use 'shunning'.

[Oli]

I think we are mixing two things here, one is the failure of the state to protect individuals and the other is the failure of individuals to be responsible members of society. For the latter you cant change the world or the country for that matter but friends and family you can to some extent, i think as an individual and unless you fancy joining the political class the best you can do is try to instil the right morals on those around you, starting with yourself. For the former well sadly without the latter there will always be crime and violent crime at that, as an individual all you can do is not be a bystander that watches and films on their mobile and sticks it on youtube, be aware of your surroundings and use common sense in dangerous situations and dont be afraid to defend yourself.

[geordieh]

There are 2 different points that your raised, social stigma and the response of the authorities.

 

Social stigma only works when the people that YOU care about stigmatise you and the people you are talking about live with others of the same mindset.

 

The authorities should be looking at different ways to deal with criminals that, at present, don't seem bothered by the current methods. Taking away money = more robberies and more kids inpoverty, so that won't work.

 

One way could be to give them menial 'jobs' that require them to make an effort, if they work hard they get rewarded with a shorter sentence or cash bonus, if they don't then the work 'contract' is extended and continues unpaid. The more effort they put in the shorter the time they work.

 

In time this could give them a Pavlovian resopse to hard work.....

 

....or it could just be a massive waste of time And money. But its got to be better than handing out ASBOs.

Hi All

Criminals are not bothered by current methods of punishment so lets give them something they are bothered about. Public birchings or canings for under 16's and all first offenders on top of prison sentences. Second offences the birch or cane, then double the previous prison sentence, then on release tattoo with an offence code on each cheek. Third offence amputate a hand or foot(prisoners choice) then double the previous sentence. I bet there won't be a fourth time

Geordie

[Greymaster]

The antis would have the entire shooting community stigmatised. Would this be just?

[guest1957]

Hi All

Criminals are not bothered by current methods of punishment so lets give them something they are bothered about. Public birchings or canings for under 16's and all first offenders on top of prison sentences. Second offences the birch or cane, then double the previous prison sentence, then on release tattoo with an offence code on each cheek. Third offence amputate a hand or foot(prisoners choice) then double the previous sentence. I bet there won't be a fourth time

Geordie

Feel free to move to Iran, that sort of system isn't welcome here.

[Gimlet]

Thats the bit i mean when you said "caring what others think is a powerful motivating force" and then when someone is out of order we should use stigma and 'send them to coventry'. Some societies use 'shunning'.

 

I would have thought shunning would work only in a closed society where the person shunned had no escape and had to endure it. That would act as a lesson to others. In wider society as a whole I think the shunners would simply get two fingers in most cases, and probably some retaliation.

That said, over time public campaigns can shift fixed attitudes. Drink driving is now socially unacceptable. Thirty years ago we used to joke about it. It would be nice if teenage pregnancy, benefit dependancy, public drunkenness, public use of foul language, littering and vandalism were viewed in a similar light. Unfortunately the authorities are either afraid to enforce the laws we have, or by cow-towing to the 'rights' culture they develope a pretty elastic concept of morality which runs counter to public opinion and they end up promoting as much antisocial behaviour as they discourage - with of course our money.

Feel free to shun, and I wish you luck, but don't be surprised if you find by doing so you've infringed someone's human rights.

It might be better if we shunned local authorities with our council tax payments when they refuse to listen to us.

[gazzthompson]

As somebody has noted, What if shooting become (even more) stigmatised ? Would that be okay?

 

[Granett]

I think any argument with the main tenet being, "we will only use this law to punish the bad people" is just the well intentioned paving on the road to hell.

 

However, if we're collecting right wing ideas I'd like to ban the misuse of the term "single parent family" where it's used to describe a family where one parent has shirked their parental responibilities. These people should be compelled to contribute to the upbringing of their offspring if only financially. The state must not pick up any of their burden.

 

Then, to the extent that any child or animal causing harm to society is deemed to lack criminal capacity, the parent or owner should take on the rest. That is to say if a scrote gets a 5 yr sentence instead of 12yrs then the parents should do the outstanding 7 years.

 

I'd also like to offer 14yr olds £1,000 to have 5yr contraception injections.

[old rooster]

No easy fix for this gradual slide away from individual responsibility and accountability. Still not sure that the soft touch is the way forward to reversing the decline, if anything, given the lack of conscience and respect these offenders exhibit it could make things worse.

 

In reality we don't have a harsh penal system in this country anyway, we've become very lenient, allowing people to excuse their behaviour due to upbringing, being under the influence of drink or drugs, depression and any number of other excuses. The prison system while overcrowded affords most inmates a reasonable lifestyle, some are looked after better than they would be outside. The email that does the rounds from time to time suggesting that pensioners should all be put in prison and the prisoners made to survive in the conditions pensioners face is mildly thought provoking.

 

When we have a system where a burglar can sue a householder if he injures himself while breaking into their house it perhaps suggests that things have reached the point of needing a radical rethink.