Beaters Pay and HMRC

[JustJon]

 

As its a payment to an employee, its still taxable. Hiding the money in a Christmas card doesn't make it tax free...... As he will probably be claiming a deduction for the cost beaters in his books against the income from the sold days, it won't take HMRC long to get to the bottom of it if he ended up with an enquiry.

What if it's marks and Spencer's vouchers, not cash?

[leeds chimp]

You are a miserable *** aren't you......

disagree with you there

He is giving good info and showing how it's gonna work

[ColinF]

What if it's marks and Spencer's vouchers, not cash?

 

Same answer. Its virtually impossible for an employer to give an employee anything without incurring a tax charge for the employee. If the voucher thing worked, every employee would be paid that way

[JustJon]

 

Same answer. Its virtually impossible for an employer to give an employee anything without incurring a tax charge for the employee. If the voucher thing worked, every employee would be paid that way

I'm not taxed on Xmas vouchers from work - can't believe the multi national incredibly compliant corporate business I used to work for would put employees at risk.

 

Another equal chance - shoots pay a standard lunch expense. Not taxed. Can prob only be £5 but can help - info on tax office web site and perfectly ok from memory as not working at home or office therefore lunch allowance makes sense.

[ColinF]

I'm not taxed on Xmas vouchers from work - can't believe the multi national incredibly compliant corporate business I used to work for would put employees at risk.

 

Another equal chance - shoots pay a standard lunch expense. Not taxed. Can prob only be £5 but can help - info on tax office web site and perfectly ok from memory as not working at home or office therefore lunch allowance makes sense.

 

You may find that the vouchers are either taxed through the payroll and shown on your payslip, but done in a way that doesn't affect your net pay. If not, the employer would have an arrangement with HMRC to pay the tax directly.

 

Employees can claim a lunch expense, but they have to be working away, and I think that they actually have to incur the expense. For a beater, their permanent place of work would be the shoot, so they wouldn't be able to claim subsistence payments. Send me a link to what you have found, and I will have a look at it

[JustJon]

 

You may find that the vouchers are either taxed through the payroll and shown on your payslip, but done in a way that doesn't affect your net pay. If not, the employer would have an arrangement with HMRC to pay the tax directly.

 

Employees can claim a lunch expense, but they have to be working away, and I think that they actually have to incur the expense. For a beater, their permanent place of work would be the shoot, so they wouldn't be able to claim subsistence payments. Send me a link to what you have found, and I will have a look at it

Self employed and place of work is home based - the shoot is the equivalent of a call out and using a standard rate to save doing lunch expense paperwork everyday is considered appropriate.

 

I'm no expert, just what's been suggested to me. HMRC was something I read 6 months ago and too tired to look on my phone mate.

[ColinF]

Self employed and place of work is home based - the shoot is the equivalent of a call out and using a standard rate to save doing lunch expense paperwork everyday is considered appropriate.

 

I'm no expert, just what's been suggested to me. HMRC was something I read 6 months ago and too tired to look on my phone mate.

 

Here you go:

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM05231.htm

 

Only applies when working away, and incurring expenses

[JustJon]

So a beater, whose natural office is from home, is away and incurring expense - either breakfast or dinner I would imagine.

[ColinF]

 

So a beater, whose natural office is from home, is away and incurring expense - either breakfast or dinner I would imagine.

 

That's the problem. For each employment, the shoot would be considered the permanent place of work.

[PhilR]

ColinF has succinctly laid out the HMRC rules regarding beaters pay to the nth degree. It is now up to individuals to determine whether they want to continue beating at particular shoots having been given the full facts here.

 

For my syndicate shoot I'm recording the appropriate details of the beaters, none I might add have declined to provide them, and the payments made to them on a shoot by shoot basis. I'll retain the records for three years and as there no employees I very much doubt I'll hear from HMRC. The beaters have all been written to explaining the situation and what they need to do.

 

I think this thread should be now be locked as there's no more value to be added now the messenger is being shot at.

[Underdog]

Philr...your the only guy doing it correctly as far as I understand the hmrc web page on this issue.

 

It does apear some shoots are attempting to line there pockets by defrauding beaters of some pay under the false claim they are going to pay the tax!

 

There is no need for any submission to be made real time or other unless a beater is paid £109.00for a given period of work. Most small shoots only have to keep a record...nowt else!

 

 

Also how can an individuals tax deduction be paid with out thier p45? Tax code etc.

The only time beating money is informed to the hmrc in real time is when an already existing employee of the estate is on PAYE..

 

U.

[Dunkield]

If Colin is happy to contibue answering questions and ignore any trolling then it should stay open.

I have learnt from it and I am sure others have too. Any untoward comments can be reported and binned.

[CharlieT]

Philr...your the only guy doing it correctly as far as I understand the hmrc web page on this issue.

 

It does apear some shoots are attempting to line there pockets by defrauding beaters of some pay under the false claim they are going to pay the tax!

 

There is no need for any submission to be made real time or other unless a beater is paid £109.00for a given period of work. Most small shoots only have to keep a record...nowt else!

 

 

Also how can an individuals tax deduction be paid with out thier p45? Tax code etc.

The only time beating money is informed to the hmrc in real time is when an already existing employee of the estate is on PAYE..

 

U.

 

As you say a shoot with one or more gamekeepers on "the books" is obliged to report using RTI. This will therefore apply to most commercial shoots.

 

Shoots can come to an arrangement with HMRC whereby the shoot pays an amount to cover the tax liability.

[Underdog]

But a small shoot as ours doing six days at 22.50 a day does not need to make a submission to hmrc but they have dropped the day rate to twenty to cover a tax deduction!

That seems wrong....going off the guidelines on hmrc and basc!

 

A large shoot shooting nearly everyday with regular beaters is different. Easily reaching the NI threshold.

 

U.

But a small shoot as ours doing six days at 22.50 a day does not need to make a submission to hmrc but they have dropped the day rate to twenty to cover a tax deduction!

That seems wrong....going off the guidelines on hmrc and basc!

 

A large shoot shooting nearly everyday with regular beaters is different. Easily reaching the NI threshold.

 

U.

[CharlieT]

But a small shoot as ours doing six days at 22.50 a day does not need to make a submission to hmrc but they have dropped the day rate to twenty to cover a tax deduction!

That seems wrong....going off the guidelines on hmrc and basc!

 

A large shoot shooting nearly everyday with regular beaters is different. Easily reaching the NI threshold.

 

U

Seems like your shoot is trying it on, assuming they don't have an agreement with HMRC.

They don't deserve any beaters.

 

Unless a large shoot is paying their beaters very well (per day - under the rules) they would not be subject to NI even if the beater worked 6 days a week.

[neil3728]

Philr...your the only guy doing it correctly as far as I understand the hmrc web page on this issue.

 

It does apear some shoots are attempting to line there pockets by defrauding beaters of some pay under the false claim they are going to pay the tax!

 

There is no need for any submission to be made real time or other unless a beater is paid £109.00for a given period of work. Most small shoots only have to keep a record...nowt else!

 

 

Also how can an individuals tax deduction be paid with out thier p45? Tax code etc.

The only time beating money is informed to the hmrc in real time is when an already existing employee of the estate is on PAYE..

 

U.

 

Any employee without a valid P45 must have filled out and signed a P46. which will allocate an emergency tax code to them until the revenue review the emplyment history and alter the tax code if necessary.

 

Also your information on the submissions is not correct as long as the emplyer has a PAYE scheme opened then a submission on all employee wages is made no matter how much they are paid.

If all employee's are paid below the NI threashold then it is possible for the employer to cancell their PAYE scheme, then no submission has to be made.

[Cockerman59]

Update

I have now been beating at 3 large estate in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire all put 20,000+ birds down

They are all keeping the pay the same £25.00, Bird price £33 plus vat

They asked for all my details, they are not paying tax for you, you have to submit your own tax return at year end.

I declined to give them my details and just beat for free for that day, will not be returning.

It seem to be different all over.

[neil3728]

They have decided to just class you as a subcontact labour, if there is nothing regualr in how oftern you are beating for them, it would be one way around it.

Obviousley the HMRc could look at it as a way around the rules and deem you to be an employee, but they would have to open up a PAYE investigation first to find this.

[Cockerman59]

While all the beater where there the keeper handed out shoot date lists to everybody

approx 25 days each shoot

[neil3728]

Is it your choice which dates you pick, or is it a all or nothing type afare. If you can choose when you yurn up, you could be classed as self employed, you are paid gross and you have to declare your income less any taxable expenditure on your own tax return.

[Cockerman59]

Thank you for the replies

[CharlieT]

Is it your choice which dates you pick, or is it a all or nothing type afare. If you can choose when you yurn up, you could be classed as self employed, you are paid gross and you have to declare your income less any taxable expenditure on your own tax return.

You do not need to be and are not classed as self employed.

 

Under the rules and as long as these are adhered to the employer can pay beaters cash without deducting income tax. Obviously the beater has to declare the income.

[Underdog]

 

Any employee without a valid P45 must have filled out and signed a P46. which will allocate an emergency tax code to them until the revenue review the emplyment history and alter the tax code if necessary.

 

Also your information on the submissions is not correct as long as the emplyer has a PAYE scheme opened then a submission on all employee wages is made no matter how much they are paid.

If all employee's are paid below the NI threashold then it is possible for the employer to cancell their PAYE scheme, then no submission has to be made.

errrr that is what I said.....so where was I in-correct?

 

U.

[ColinF]

Is it your choice which dates you pick, or is it a all or nothing type afare. If you can choose when you yurn up, you could be classed as self employed, you are paid gross and you have to declare your income less any taxable expenditure on your own tax return.

 

There is a piece about treating beaters as self employed here:

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.francisclark.co.uk%2Ffiles%2Fdownload.php%3Fm%3Ddocuments%26f%3D130620115527-FCBeatersandRTINGooch.pdf&ei=oRpTUqeuMoiH0AW2j4DQCA&usg=AFQjCNFCDjY86xnkfA-mJbb5IsPYzGv0gQ

 

As you rightly say, HMRC could challenge the self employment position with the shoot. Therefore, why would a shoot want to treat beaters as self employed? There is no tax saving, but the shoot would be liable for the tax if HMRC decide that the beaters were employees after all. Any admin savings made by not making RTI submissions would quickly be outweighed by the extra record keeping to support the self employment case.

[ColinF]

But a small shoot as ours doing six days at 22.50 a day does not need to make a submission to hmrc but they have dropped the day rate to twenty to cover a tax deduction!

That seems wrong....going off the guidelines on hmrc and basc!

 

A large shoot shooting nearly everyday with regular beaters is different. Easily reaching the NI threshold.

 

U.

 

I think you are being ripped off!

 

You should speak to them and ask how they are treating the payments, also ask them why they are deducting tax at 11%