Sound mod. reduces range on a .22, do you shoot without one?

[deaquire]

Yesterday I was doing some target practice with sound mod. at 50 yards (zeroed distance - shooting flat). I took it out to 80 yards and got an approx. 2" drop so adjusted with 1 mil holdover which brought it back up into the kill zone. It was getting a little tedious so I took the sound mod. off to see what difference it would make, the result was that it shot flat at 80 yards with no need for holdover. I was shooting at a circle the size of a pound coin with a 3-9 x 42 scope and every single shot at least touched the outside of the circle, if not landing within.

 

Does anyone shoot a .22rf without a sound mod. to give themselves further range? I feel on a calm day, with a slightly more powerful scope, maybe 4-12 x 50? and very little holdover that the 100 yard shots would be much more approachable.

[pegasus bridge]

I'm guessing it has just altered the zero rather than increased velocity?

Edited July 27, 2013 by pegasus bridge

[wymberley]

Further range is a function of an increase in velocity. This did not magically happen. What did was a change in barrel harmonics with the removal of the moderator. Did you think to revert back to 50 yards with the moderator still off to see what happened then?

[deaquire]

I suppose that's why I'm posting. I'm not sure what happened. It shot approx. 1/2" high back at 50 yards without the sound mod. Wouldn't there be a case to argue the moderator has reduced velocity? Isn't a sound moderator reducing the gas velocity to such an amount that it reduces the noise when it exits the barrel and so to take away noise, are you taking away energy?

 

I didn't try 100 yards, but if it's shooting flat at 80 yards, on a scope that has been zeroed at 50 with a sound mod., then surely there won't be a massive amount of drop over an additional 20 yards? Obviously it's something I'm going to have to find out through trial and error, I just found it interesting is all and would like to try and understand what is happening.

Edited July 27, 2013 by deaquire

[tignme]

Rezero without the mod,try it n rezero with mod there should be a different zero albeit maybe not a lot. try to zero at a properly measured distance. A friend is 6ft 2 im 5.7 our steps are much different yds.

Edited July 27, 2013 by tignme

[deaquire]

If I assume the zero without sound mod is 75 yards, and with sound mod. the bullet drop is 2" then I'd need to make something like 8 clicks up to bring it back. Not really sure what you'd class as not a lot but it's enough to define a hit or miss. I have a 100 metre measure with yards on for setting up with, it was cheaper than a range finder

[wymberley]

What ammo are you using?

[EMcC]

As has been said already, the mod will not increase or decrease the velocity of the ammo being used.

All the mod does is change the barrel harmonics, barrel flip, which in turn can change the poi of the ammo.

[Dekers]

As #3 & #8 above!

 

[deaquire]

Remington CBee 22 it's cheap but I love it.

[wymberley]

Remington CBee 22 it's cheap but I love it.

Sad smileys by all those who thought it would be 40gn subsonics.

Whereas it is possible to make sense of these ballistically but in reality is it worth the effort? Just enjoy the plinking.

[njc110381]

As others have said, it's all down to barrel harmonics and reduced muzzle flip (not that it's obvious with a .22lr).

 

With larger calibres and heavier moderators I have found the difference to be even greater. Up to six inches from memory.

 

A moderator does disperse the hot gasses and energy from the shot to reduce the noise, but once the bullet has left the barrel these gasses aren't doing any more to propel it. For that reason the mod doesn't reduce performance, only the noise.

[dadioles]

Hi deaquire

 

I can see exactly where you are thinking and how you have reached your conclusion and it does on the face of it seem logical that if the bullet hits lower with a mod on than it does with a mod off that the mod is slowing the bullet down.

 

It is, in fact, completely wrong so put that thought process out of your head or you will get very confused and go quietly mad thinking about it.

 

As others have said, fitting a moderator does nothing to slow a bullet down, it just affects the way the barrel flexes when a bullet is fired and changes the point of impact.

 

One way to think of it (not entirely true but it helps) is to fire your gun at a target with the stock locked solidly in a vice. Now hang a half pound weight on the end of the barrel and taken another shot. It will hit the target lower. The bullet, however, will be at the same velocity as the last one.

 

The way you hold a gun will have an effect on the aim point and so will the use of a bipod be different to a shot off sticks or resting on a fence. It is all about how the rifle jumps and moves when it is fired.

 

Zero your gun with the moderator on and always use it in the same configuration and with the same ammunition.

 

Between 50 yards and 60 yards will probably be the best zero to give you the flattest shooting over the greatest distance based on a 1" kill zone. The only way is to shoot targets at fixed distances and work out your own trajectory. It will be different and unique for everyone.

[deaquire]

Cheers all. While I still find it a little confusing, it's starting to make sense. I'm just going to buy "Shooting for dummies"

[1066]

Remington CBee 22 it's cheap but I love it.

Ahh! Great joke. I thought you were being serious until you said you were using Remington CBee's and hitting 1 inch targets out to 80 yds. This round has it's uses but it's not really designed for rabbit sized targets out to 100yds.

 

This is a "back yard" round - shooting a .33 gn bullet at around 740 fps at about 40ftlbs. Less than half the energy of a standard .22LR sub-sonic hollow point or about the same as a FAC air rifle.

If you have this round zeroed at 50 yards you will have a drop of nearly 8 inches at 80 yards and nearly 15 inches at 100 yards with only 36 ftlbs of energy left.

There's no such thing as a flat shooting .22LR. -

[Bleeh]

Cheers all. While I still find it a little confusing, it's starting to make sense. I'm just going to buy "Shooting for dummies"

A sound moderator shouldn't change zero. It's an extension to the barrel and should have no effect on muzzle velocity.

 

Are you sure the moderator is fitted properly and the inside baffles are not burred and touching the bullet as it passed?

[dadioles]

A sound moderator shouldn't change zero. It's an extension to the barrel and should have no effect on muzzle velocity.

 

Are you sure the moderator is fitted properly and the inside baffles are not burred and touching the bullet as it passed?

 

Did you really mean to say that?

 

A sound moderator shouldn't change zero.

Of course a sound moderator will change the zero and so will any other changes to the configuration of a rifle including the way it is supported. Its all about harmonics.

 

It's an extension to the barrel

No, the moderator is not an extension of the barrel. It does however extend the length of a barrel (not the same thing).

 

and should have no effect on muzzle velocity.

Correct, a moderator (broadly speaking) will not have an effect on muzzle velocity.

 

By the time the bullet gets to the end of the barrel (certainly in the case of rimfire) it is already starting to slow down as all the "bang" from burning powder has been used up. The bullet leaves the barrel crown and passes unhindered through the oversized hole in the moderator followed by a stream of high pressure gases. The moderator simply acts as an expansion chamber to dissipate the exit of those high pressure gases after the bullet has already left.

[deaquire]

Ahh! Great joke. I thought you were being serious until you said you were using Remington CBee's and hitting 1 inch targets out to 80 yds. This round has it's uses but it's not really designed for rabbit sized targets out to 100yds.

 

This is a "back yard" round - shooting a .33 gn bullet at around 740 fps at about 40ftlbs. Less than half the energy of a standard .22LR sub-sonic hollow point or about the same as a FAC air rifle.

If you have this round zeroed at 50 yards you will have a drop of nearly 8 inches at 80 yards and nearly 15 inches at 100 yards with only 36 ftlbs of energy left.

There's no such thing as a flat shooting .22LR. -

 

I'm not sure if you're local but I'd be happy to demonstrate if you are, I'm in North Yorkshire. From a 50 yard zero moving to 80 yards, both distances with sound mod., there was a 2" drop. Around 3/4 mil holdover corrected this, as did removing the mod..

If you're incapable of hitting a 1" group at 80 yards with it then that's fine, but I am. And what I said was that i was shooting at a circle the size of a pound coin; that's less than an inch. I couldn't tell you what energy remains, but I know that when I shoot rabbits in the head at that distance, they fall over, twitch a bit, and then lie still. It's good enough for me

[wymberley]

 

I'm not sure if you're local but I'd be happy to demonstrate if you are, I'm in North Yorkshire. From a 50 yard zero moving to 80 yards, both distances with sound mod., there was a 2" drop. Around 3/4 mil holdover corrected this, as did removing the mod..

If you're incapable of hitting a 1" group at 80 yards with it then that's fine, but I am. And what I said was that i was shooting at a circle the size of a pound coin; that's less than an inch. I couldn't tell you what energy remains, but I know that when I shoot rabbits in the head at that distance, they fall over, twitch a bit, and then lie still. It's good enough for me

There's something not right here. I suspect the ammo is not what it appears to be. Giving the bullet the BC of a normal 22LR subsonic round you should expect a drop of 7"+ from the 50 to 80. I tried to achieve your 2" by altering the only possible circumstance - the BC - and gave in as I was in danger of blowing my ballistic programme. Somehow it would seem that your rounds are NOT doing what it says on the tin.

[deaquire]

I've no idea the piece of card that I was using was only 8" high as I hadn't planned on moving back. The circle was positioned central to the card so even if I had measured incorrectly, which was my first thought after 1066's reply, the max. the drop could have been is 4" given that the shots were hitting the card every time. But I was measuring and those were the results. Like I say if anyone's local, I'd like to know what's going on. I did make another thread about my rounds seeming to fire differently, I shot a couple of rabbits one night and blew their organs (partially - lungs hanging out) out of their chest which had never happened before over the countless rabbits I've shot with many different rounds of .22 RF. No one replied to it though.

[1066]

I'm sorry, I think you're right, it must be me, I just need more practice. I've got pretty limited experience with Remington CBees.

 

Can you tell us what equipment you're using, rifle, scope etc. also, is that from a solid bench, with a bi-pod or off the bonnet of the Land-Rover? Can you post some photos of your groups and a picture of the bullets you're using?

 

I have a sneaky feeling that, as Wymberley has said, the bullets aren't quite what it says on the box - according to your drop measurement, the damage to rabbits and the accuracy you are getting I would suggest that your rifle has a bit of a slack chamber and you are managing to load it with .22 WMR rounds as these are the only .22 rimfire rounds that I can find that fit the bill.

[Dekers]

I'm sorry, I think you're right, it must be me, I just need more practice. I've got pretty limited experience with Remington CBees.

 

Can you tell us what equipment you're using, rifle, scope etc. also, is that from a solid bench, with a bi-pod or off the bonnet of the Land-Rover? Can you post some photos of your groups and a picture of the bullets you're using?

 

I have a sneaky feeling that, as Wymberley has said, the bullets aren't quite what it says on the box - according to your drop measurement, the damage to rabbits and the accuracy you are getting I would suggest that your rifle has a bit of a slack chamber and you are managing to load it with .22 WMR rounds as these are the only .22 rimfire rounds that I can find that fit the bill.

 

:lol:

 

That is some slack......a WMR is not only longer but also a bigger diameter cartridge!.

[deaquire]

Solid bench with bipod. Photos and info. to follow to try and clear it up. Definitely .22 LR rounds. I've got a nice camera set up but i've lost the damn mount. If I had a slack chamber surely the accuracy would be way off? As it is it's shooting very tight groups. The trigger's heavy but that's my only complaint.

[CharlieT]

Here is a comparison from Remington's ammo site.

 

deleted as it came out unreadable !!

Edited July 30, 2013 by CharlieT

[deaquire]

Comparison between the wmr and lr?