Fac refree

[karpman]

Hi all. My fac application has been in for a few days and one of my referees rang to tell me his form had come back doh!

 

Turns out he just filled the boxes in with answers like "no" and "nothing" they have asked him to literate a little further. Which I belive he has done and posted back in the envelope provided today.

 

All though not particularly funny did have a little chuckle when told he told me, do you think this may reflect badly for my application? I have already had a gun put aside, on the proviso I get my ticket if not the deposit is to be spent in the shop

 

Karpmam

[JonathanL]

They should NOT do that. The form asks a direct question, it is not asking the referee to give an essay on the applicants life. The only reason you should have to give anything other than a 'no' is if you put 'yes' in which case it asks you to give further details. I've done lots of these and always put 'no' unless there is some reason to put 'yes' which have never happened.

 

There is a wider issue here. If people go about 'padding out' an answer to make it sound better they potentially leave themselves open to getting into trouble. It is an offence to make any false statement in any material particular to the grant of a certificate for your self or another person. If you put something on the form which turns out not to be true then you leave your self open to prosecution. This is also a very good reason never to fill any forms other than the ones required by law such as forms about reloading, medical history forms, etc. A false answer on any of these can get you into bother.

 

J.

[karpman]

They should NOT do that. The form asks a direct question, it is not asking the referee to give an essay on the applicants life. The only reason you should have to give anything other than a 'no' is if you put 'yes' in which case it asks you to give further details. I've done lots of these and always put 'no' unless there is some reason to put 'yes' which have never happened.

 

There is a wider issue here. If people go about 'padding out' an answer to make it sound better they potentially leave themselves open to getting into trouble. It is an offence to make any false statement in any material particular to the grant of a certificate for your self or another person. If you put something on the form which turns out not to be true then you leave your self open to prosecution. This is also a very good reason never to fill any forms other than the ones required by law such as forms about reloading, medical history forms, etc. A false answer on any of these can get you into bother.

 

J.

I don't think he is likely to put anything in there that would be in truthful, he is simply not the type and this is one reason why I asked him to referee.

 

It was put to him that his answers on form 125 are unacceptable and he should elaborate. Naturally he done as instructed slapped it back in the envelope and posted it back.

 

Be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

Karpman

[clakk]

interested how this pans out my referee is of similar vocab .he,l just yes no rather than write a saga.please post if it goes ok thanks

[karpman]

Will do mate

 

Karpman

[CharlieT]

They should NOT do that. The form asks a direct question, it is not asking the referee to give an essay on the applicants life. The only reason you should have to give anything other than a 'no' is if you put 'yes' in which case it asks you to give further details. I've done lots of these and always put 'no' unless there is some reason to put 'yes' which have never happened.

 

There is a wider issue here. If people go about 'padding out' an answer to make it sound better they potentially leave themselves open to getting into trouble. It is an offence to make any false statement in any material particular to the grant of a certificate for your self or another person. If you put something on the form which turns out not to be true then you leave your self open to prosecution. This is also a very good reason never to fill any forms other than the ones required by law such as forms about reloading, medical history forms, etc. A false answer on any of these can get you into bother.

 

J.

Actually, if you read the guidance notes on the back of the referee form it specifically instructs the referee elaborate and not use one word answers.

[Davyo]

If I remeber, on the referee notes it states it may returned if yes/no is used.

[karpman]

Actually, if you read the guidance notes on the back of the referee form it specifically instructs the referee elaborate and not use one word answers.

I didn't even look to be honest, I printed them off and left them in the referees hands. I shouldn't imagine they would count it against me because he did not elaborate.

 

Always a worry when you apply for anything I suppose, and what will be will be.

 

Karpman

[JonathanL]

I don't think he is likely to put anything in there that would be in truthful, he is simply not the type and this is one reason why I asked him to referee.

 

It was put to him that his answers on form 125 are unacceptable and he should elaborate. Naturally he done as instructed slapped it back in the envelope and posted it back.

 

Be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

Karpman

I understand what you are saying. However, the fact remains that the question is straightforward; it says something along the lines of 'are you aware of any domestic problems relating to the applicant or his family?'. If you aren't aware of any such matters then the only answer you can give is 'no'. How can that be unnacceptable if it is true? Anything else you say is pointless and has no relationship to the question

 

I'm not suggesting for a minute that your referee would intentionally say something that wasn't true but if he inadvertently did he could open him self up to problems. Why run that risk if the truthful answer to the question is simply 'no'?

 

As mentioned, I have done quite a few of these and I always use one word answers to these questions simply because they are the most accurate. I have never had a problem with that.

 

J.

Edited July 30, 2013 by JonathanL

[karpman]

I understand what you are saying. However, the fact remains that the question is straightforward; it says something along the lines of 'are you aware of any domestic problems relating to the applicant or his family?'. If you aren't aware of any such matters then the only answer you can give is 'no'. How can that be unnacceptable if it is true? Anything else you say is pointless and has no relationship to the question

 

I'm not suggesting for a minute that your referee would intentionally say something that wasn't true but if he inadvertently did he could open him self up to problems. Why run that risk if the truthful answer to the question is simply 'no'?

 

J.

No idea lol, you see he fills the form out and posts it. I have no idea what he has added or how he has elaborated. That's his business.

 

Maybe I should of have it more thought as to who would be my referees.

 

The more i sit back and think about it the more i cannot forsea a problem, at the end of the day it's a form the police were not entirely happy with his input so they sent it back for correction.

 

Now if he has ****ed it up this time I could be in trouble lol.

 

Karpman

[JonathanL]

Actually, if you read the guidance notes on the back of the referee form it specifically instructs the referee elaborate and not use one word answers.

It doesn't say that. It says that you should mention anything that you think may be relevant but doesn't instruct the referee to elaborate simply for the sake of doing so.

 

One of the questions is;

 

"15 Personal history of the applicant. Do you have any knowledge of any medical or emotional problems, alcohol, drugs or medication related abuse, or mental or physical disability suffered by the applicant? Please give details and say how you came by this information."

 

If you have no knowledge of any of the above then the only answer you can truthfully give is 'no'. Any elaboration of that, such as 'I have no knowledge of any of the above matters' is just a waste of ink, and somewhat pretentious, quite frankly - 'no' is perfectly adequate. The only resason to add more would be if you actually did have knowledge of the existence of any of the above in which case you would state as to how you came to know of it.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

If I remeber, on the referee notes it states it may returned if yes/no is used.

http://www.essex.police.uk/pdf/firearms%20-%20form%20125.pdf

 

It doesn't. It asks you to elaborate if you answer 'yes' to the questions. If you don't know of any problems the applicant has then "no" is the only truthful answer you can give.

 

J.

[karpman]

It doesn't say that. It says that you should mention anything that you think may be relevant but doesn't instruct the referee to elaborate simply for the sake of doing so.

 

One of the questions is;

 

"15 Personal history of the applicant. Do you have any knowledge of any medical or emotional problems, alcohol, drugs or medication related abuse, or mental or physical disability suffered by the applicant? Please give details and say how you came by this information."

 

If you have no knowledge of any of the above then the only answer you can truthfully give is 'no'. Any elaboration of that, such as 'I have no knowledge of any of the above matters' is just a waste of ink, and somewhat pretentious, quite frankly - 'no' is perfectly adequate. The only resason to add more would be if you actually did have knowledge of the existence of any of the above in which case you would state as to how you came to know of it.

 

J.

Have to agree with you on that J "no" seems to answer it beautifully in my eyes.

 

Karpman

[tedster]

They have to make a difficult decision to issue a certificate based, in part, to the answers provided on a badly worded form.

 

What they are really looking for is some sort of personal knowledge about the applicant, provided by the referee. Along the lines of, "No, I don't see anything adverse, in the personal history of the applicant, he has a stable life with a loving spouse and family". That sort of thing. You can be pedantic as much as you like saying a one word answer should be sufficient, but it doesn't help the applicant you are supposed to be vouching for does it?

[JonathanL]

They have to make a difficult decision to issue a certificate based, in part, to the answers provided on a badly worded form.

 

What they are really looking for is some sort of personal knowledge about the applicant, provided by the referee. Along the lines of, "No, I don't see anything adverse, in the personal history of the applicant, he has a stable life with a loving spouse and family". That sort of thing. You can be pedantic as much as you like saying a one word answer should be sufficient, but it doesn't help the applicant you are supposed to be vouching for does it?

But that is *not* what the question asks. It only asks for a simple yes or no answer with further information as to how you came by the information only required if the answer is 'yes'.

 

On the specific point of the words of elaboration you gave - how can any referee possibly know these things as facts unless they live under the same roof? The applicant and his wife may absolutely hate one another for all the referee knows. This goes back to what I mentioned a few posts further up; if it turns out that the applicant has been slapping his wife around for the past few years then the referee has made a false statement in material particular to the grant of a firearm certificate, has he not? The referee *can not* state that as being fact so he should not put it on the form.

 

J.

Edited July 30, 2013 by JonathanL

[tedster]

I pick my referee's because they know me and my domestic situation. They answer the questions based on their knowledge of me and my domestic situation. No one is asking them to swear their opinion on oath, they aren't clinical psychologists acting as experts, they are just providing their honest opinion as a responsible person. It's a situation based on trust, trust that I am a responsible person and trust that I provide the name of a responsible person to act as my referee.

[al4x]

It doesn't say that. It says that you should mention anything that you think may be relevant but doesn't instruct the referee to elaborate simply for the sake of doing so.

 

One of the questions is;

 

"15 Personal history of the applicant. Do you have any knowledge of any medical or emotional problems, alcohol, drugs or medication related abuse, or mental or physical disability suffered by the applicant? Please give details and say how you came by this information."

 

If you have no knowledge of any of the above then the only answer you can truthfully give is 'no'. Any elaboration of that, such as 'I have no knowledge of any of the above matters' is just a waste of ink, and somewhat pretentious, quite frankly - 'no' is perfectly adequate. The only resason to add more would be if you actually did have knowledge of the existence of any of the above in which case you would state as to how you came to know of it.

 

J.

Knowing you could argue black was white given the chance johno how can you argue this? As clearly its not acceptable as the fins have been sent back.

In the ones I've done I've just written I have no knowledge of anything affecting the applicant. And you know what they haven't been sent back.

[JonathanL]

Knowing you could argue black was white given the chance johno how can you argue this? As clearly its not acceptable as the fins have been sent back.

In the ones I've done I've just written I have no knowledge of anything affecting the applicant. And you know what they haven't been sent back.

Answering 'no' is perfectly acceptable. That question is very simple and if you have no knowledge of the things mentioned then 'no' is the appropriate answer. Like I say, I have answered lots like that and none have ever been sent back. The wording you used is the same as 'no' but with lots of extra words. It doesn't actually add any more information so why is it acceptable when a simple 'no' isn't?

 

 

This is the first time I have ever heard of one-word answers not being accepted. If that is a truthful answer then you have met the requirements of the form, surely?

 

J.

[karpman]

Answering 'no' is perfectly acceptable. That question is very simple and if you have no knowledge of the things mentioned then 'no' is the appropriate answer. Like I say, I have answered lots like that and none have ever been sent back. The wording you used is the same as 'no' but with lots of extra words. It doesn't actually add any more information so why is it acceptable when a simple 'no' isn't?

 

 

This is the first time I have ever heard of one-word answers not being accepted. If that is a truthful answer then you have met the requirements of the form, surely?

 

J.

You think my referee was telling porkies? I let me assure you he wasn't.

 

As for "no" being an acceptable answer, Not in this instance. And it is not my place to fight it.

 

Karpman

[CharlieT]

 

 

It doesn't say that. It says that you should mention anything that you think may be relevant but doesn't instruct the referee to elaborate simply for the sake of doing so.

 

One of the questions is;

 

"15 Personal history of the applicant. Do you have any knowledge of any medical or emotional problems, alcohol, drugs or medication related abuse, or mental or physical disability suffered by the applicant? Please give details and say how you came by this information."

 

If you have no knowledge of any of the above then the only answer you can truthfully give is 'no'. Any elaboration of that, such as 'I have no knowledge of any of the above matters' is just a waste of ink, and somewhat pretentious, quite frankly - 'no' is perfectly adequate. The only resason to add more would be if you actually did have knowledge of the existence of any of the above in which case you would state as to how you came to know of it.

 

J.

 

 

Please read and at least try to understand my posts before replying to save egg on your face.

 

I clearly wrote "in the guidance notes to referees on the back of the reference form"

 

What you are quoting is the question posed on the front of the form.

 

As the Home Office went to the trouble of writing guidance for referees on how to answer and complete the form you could at least read them before arguing with me.

Edited July 31, 2013 by CharlieT

[Breastman]

I've never understood the point of question 18; "What do you know of the applicants attitude towards firearms?"

 

If they answered, "He thinks they're ****ing great!" Would they accept that?? I mean are they really expecting the applicant to have asked a referee to fill in the form who might say something like. "It's pretty disturbing, he's told me he sleeps with them and prefers them to his children"

[al4x]

You think my referee was telling porkies? I let me assure you he wasn't.

 

As for "no" being an acceptable answer, Not in this instance. And it is not my place to fight it.

 

Karpman

 

why would you fight it, its ridiculous for anyone to suggest they want to save biro that much that they aren't prepared to write more than no on the form. The first clue is they give you a bloody great big box to write in and as Charlie says in the information they suggest you write a little more than one word answers. Its a bit like going to a job interview and just answering yes or no doesn't help much though it may answer the question

Edited July 31, 2013 by al4x

[Sprackles]

Here is an excerpt from a guidance page here................http://www.riflesunlimited.co.uk/showarticle.php?id=10

 

Obviously this is just their take on things.

 

 

 

Reference Form

Reference Form Part A:

Fill this in for your referee to save them the time. The rest of the forms should be filled in without you present and you should not see the form. You must not pay them to fill in the form.

Reference Form Part C:

(15/16/17) Its important your referee puts in long answers and not just “nothing” or “none” or “no reason” as this doesn't give any information to your licensing authority.

(18) This is a difficult one if they don't shoot with you, or even shoots themselves.

Reference Declaration:
Get your referee to sign and date the form and send directly to the licensing address. Its polite (and can speed things up) if you provide them with an envelope with the correct address and a stamp on. They shouldn't really give it back to you.

[karpman]

 

why would you fight it, its ridiculous for anyone to suggest they want to save biro that much that they aren't prepared to write more than no on the form. The first clue is they give you a bloody great big box to write in and as Charlie says in the information they suggest you write a little more than one word answers. Its a bit like going to a job interview and just answering yes or no doesn't help much though it may answer the question

Indeed mate. And as far as I'm aware after handing over the sheets, the reference is non of my business lol.

 

Like I said we did have a bit of chuckle about it and don't they would refuse on the grounds my friend like my self is a illiterate pleb lol.

 

Karpman

[JonathanL]

 

 

 

Please read and at least try to understand my posts before replying to save egg on your face.

 

I clearly wrote "in the guidance notes to referees on the back of the reference form"

 

What you are quoting is the question posed on the front of the form.

 

As the Home Office went to the trouble of writing guidance for referees on how to answer and complete the form you could at least read them before arguing with me.

The form is a single sheet of A4, the guidance notes on filling it in are on the *front* of that form - I know that because I read the form at the link I posted before I posted that reply. No where do they say that one word answers are not acceptable. If I'm wrong on that then please post the excerpt from the form which says this.

 

I posted one of the questions contained in the form the illustrate the fact that an answer consisting simply of the word 'no' satisfies the question.

 

J.

Edited July 31, 2013 by JonathanL