Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) After a recent post on PW cut up by the mods I could not help but wonder what would happen & what the out come would be if some one sold a bird of prey to the first wannabe falconer with the dosh with out making absolutely sure the buyer had first hand experience in handling a potentially dangerous bird ?. Just claiming it was the buys own fault might not stand up in court ? assuming the buyer had a serious mishap or even worse ?. I have dabbled in falconry for a good part of my life here & abroad & I well aware of the things that can go wrong so before any of the Goons dismiss me as a trouble maker this is a serious debate even for the mods ! ? because on the recent post cut I did note see any warnings or disclaimers by Pigeon Watch . Lots of questions need answering so I throw the debate open to you & the mods With due respect Pole Star Edited August 13, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byjovecarruthers Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) If you sell a car to someone who doesn't have a driving licence and is a poor driver who goes on to crash it and kill themselves you're not responsible. The car doesn't even have to be road worthy, all responsibility lies with the purchaser. Another example would be when selling guns. Yes the person must have a licence but that doesn't mean they are competent. Are you responsible for their actions? I suspect it's a case of buyer beware. If you were advertising your vehicle for sale on PW and I posted a comment along the lines of "I had one of these once, was really hard to drive and was dangerous if you didn't know what you're doing" then I'd want the MODS to remove it. It's fine in a discussion forum but not really fair voicing your opinions in a sales forum if you see what I mean. By the way, I know nothing about falconry. Edited August 13, 2013 by byjovecarruthers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 If you sell a car to someone who doesn't have a driving licence and is a poor driver who goes on to crash it and kill themselves you're not responsible. The car doesn't even have to be road worthy, all responsibility lies with the purchaser. Another example would be when selling guns. Yes the person must have a licence but that doesn't mean they are competent. Are you responsible for their actions? Yes thats what I thought too but courts have a very different view of things when its brought before them ? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppk9 Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 unfortunately with so many back yard breeders of un register able species such as Harris Hawks ( being the main one purchased by people who don't know what they are doing ) there is no traceability unless the bird is registered with a system such as the ibr. As such the possibility of any come back is even further diminished. As already stated, I doubt very much that it would be upheld in court. Interestingly though, we train and supply personal protection dogs to business owners and suitable members of the public and there has been instances of other training facilities receiving come back when the dog has bitten an intruder / attacker and the dog has not left with the correct paperwork and disclaimers. Unfortunately in this day and age, far too many breeders are simply after money and have no care what life the bird has. In many instances when the a falconry bird falls into incorrect hands, the bird ends up dead before it is even at a stage to be flown free and represent a danger to the public Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) If you sell a car to someone who doesn't have a driving licence and is a poor driver who goes on to crash it and kill themselves you're not responsible. The car doesn't even have to be road worthy, all responsibility lies with the purchaser. Another example would be when selling guns. Yes the person must have a licence but that doesn't mean they are competent. Are you responsible for their actions? Here is an example , some years ago a pub landlord helped one of his drunken customers into his car in the pub car park & what happens ? the drunk drives off & kills himself & 2 other people ! & what happens the land lord goes to jail ! . He did not tell him to drive he did not tell him to start the engine & the land lord did not drive the car but the land lord was the one the court found guilty & sent to prison ! , just one example . Edited August 13, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byjovecarruthers Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) Under what offence was he convicted? Aiding and abetting a criminal offence isn't really in the same as selling something to someone who doesn't know what they're doing though is it? You can't legislate for the retarded. You could be right though, you never know these days. I expect you'll have to ask a lawyer. Edited August 13, 2013 by byjovecarruthers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Under what offence was he convicted? It was some years ago now but it was well covered by the media . I do remember the driver was a Dutch national maybe some can remember it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reeceknight Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) Was this my thread about my owls that was deleted? just found it wasn't my thread lol but why we are here yes I do think they give all animals away to easy, snakes, hawks, parrots, dogs, reptiles. People purchase them as a phase with no idea how to care for them. Edited August 13, 2013 by Reeceknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRNDL Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Was this my thread about my owls that was deleted? No selling a Female Harris Hawk I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustybucket Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 I've looked into falconry over the past few years, researching the different birds, chatting to breeders (none of which would of been willing to sell me one without a mentor due to lack of experience (didn't ask bit they made it perfectly clear to me)) I wouldn't go buy one without having someone close by who would act as a mentor and the breeders I've spoken to have all been responsible breeders who thought along the same lines. Atb Frazer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppk9 Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Frazer ... exactly as you said in your post .. they were responsible breeders .. sadly many are not and would sell a bird to anyone who comes up with the money, even if they turn up with a crisps box to collect it in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Here is an example , some years ago a pub landlord helped one of his drunken customers into his car in the pub car park & what happens ? the drunk drives off & kills himself & 2 other people ! & what happens the land lord goes to jail ! . He did not tell him to drive he did not tell him to start the engine & the land lord did not drive the car but the land lord was the one the court found guilty & sent to prison ! , just one example . You are going off on one, the landlord in this case allegedly aided someone to commit a criminal offence. If the bloke simply could not drive and was an idiot that is different! It is not down to the seller to make a value judgement on the competence of a purchaser, but is its hardly appropriate for a landlord to pour a drunk into his car and help him on his way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 You are going off on one, the landlord in this case allegedly aided someone to commit a criminal offence. If the bloke simply could not drive and was an idiot that is different! It is not down to the seller to make a value judgement on the competence of a purchaser, but is its hardly appropriate for a landlord to pour a drunk into his car and help him on his way. I just used that case as quick example Dekers , as some have pointed out here there are responsible breeders & the back yard money hungry ones as with lots of things including the dreaded puppy farmers & they are even in the gun dog world as we know . Think of the worst case scenario ? a newbie gets his new gos , redtail , peregrine or eagle owl & gets snatched in the face ? any of the mentioned birds have talons large enough to cross the bridge of ones nose so that means they are well capable of blinding you in both eyes for life ?. How would a court view this ? what recommendations might the judge make if some victim sued the seller or even the advertiser ? , anything seems to possible in litigation theses days . Food for thought ? Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 You should have just kept out of this Pole Star. Your intervention in the original post was unwelcome and I feel that you are just getting onto another hobby horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Was this my thread about my owls that was deleted? just found it wasn't my thread lol but why we are here yes I do think they give all animals away to easy, snakes, hawks, parrots, dogs, reptiles. People purchase them as a phase with no idea how to care for them. No Reeceknight it was about the sale of a gos hawk it seems some took the posts the wrong way & most of the posters know as much about hawks as they do the dark side of the moon ! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) I just used that case as quick example Dekers , as some have pointed out here there are responsible breeders & the back yard money hungry ones as with lots of things including the dreaded puppy farmers & they are even in the gun dog world as we know . Think of the worst case scenario ? a newbie gets his new gos , redtail , peregrine or eagle owl & gets snatched in the face ? any of the mentioned birds have talons large enough to cross the bridge of ones nose so that means they are well capable of blinding you in both eyes for life ?. How would a court view this ? what recommendations might the judge make if some victim sued the seller or even the advertiser ? , anything seems to possible in litigation theses days . Food for thought ? Pole Star Pole Star , some of your posts are quite bizarre but you are taking things to a whole new level. A court would not view it at all because it would not get there in the first place as with 1001 different things that could maim or kill someone the onus is on the purchaser not the seller . I could choke to death on a gob stopper but they will not prosecute the bloke at the sweet shop ! I read your posts on the gos hawk thread and thought you came across as rude and presumptuous,is this to become like the Italians , a scab you cant help but keep picking ? Edited August 13, 2013 by fenboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 You should have just kept out of this Pole Star. Your intervention in the original post was unwelcome and I feel that you are just getting onto another hobby horse. No JDog I have had hawks for years ! how about you when was the last time you were alone & hung up on vicious gos hawks talons with no one to help you extract them ? oh ! so you know nothing about it then ! this is a serious debate if you know nothing about it then perhaps you would like to go & make some sick suggestions on my Italian law breakers topic again ! I hope you don't need me too remind you of your sick comment ! . Go back & have a look . oh & no offence my good man . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) Pole Star , some of your posts are quite bizarre but you are taking things to a whole new level. A court would not view it at all because it would not get there in the first place as with 1001 different things that could maim or kill someone the onus is on the purchaser not the seller . I could choke to death on a gob stopper but they will not prosecute the bloke at the sweet shop ! I read your posts on the gos hawk thread and thought you came across as rude and presumptuous,is this to become like the Italians , a scab you cant help but keep picking ? Not so fennboy in law anything seems to be possible these days as some of us unfortunately know . ps fenboy topics I have know interest in I don't read Edited August 13, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.philmypower. Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Polestar, I understand what you were saying about the goshawk being a bird that's not for beginners, the only problem was it was on the sales thread. Im sure the pw member selling the bird wouldn't have sold it to some kid who fancied one. I totally agree they are not a beginner bird and alot of people don't realise what there letting themselves in for when purchasing one. But at the end of the day the seller can only advise if someone wants to purchase it then its their problem and responsibility not the sellers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) Not so fennboy in law anything seems to be possible these days as some of us unfortunately know . oooooh the big secret again ! Somebody sold me a ferret once and the little sod bit me , can you recommend me a good solicitor , I am going to take the shirt off his back Dogs can bite , who gets taken to court the owner or breeder should there be a mentoring condition that anyone who wants a dog must be under the guidance of someone who is a expert on the subject of canines Bulls can trample people , who gets taken to court the farmer that owns the bull or the bloke that sold the bull to the farmer Just a couple of examples as to why your talking rubbish. Edited August 13, 2013 by fenboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 oooooh the big secret again ! Somebody sold me a ferret once and the little sod bit me , can you recommend me a good solicitor , I am going to take the shirt off his back Was it one of mine you bought oh ! too bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 (edited) oooooh the big secret again ! Somebody sold me a ferret once and the little sod bit me , can you recommend me a good solicitor , I am going to take the shirt off his back Dogs can bite , who gets taken to court the owner or breeder should there be a mentoring condition that anyone who wants a dog must be under the guidance of someone who is a expert on the subject of canines Bulls can trample people , who gets taken to court the farmer that owns the bull or the bloke that sold the bull to the farmer Just a couple of examples as to why your talking rubbish. Talking rubbish my own sister was bittern by a British Army Majors dog guard dog in his own house & she sued & won £900 for a bite on the hand ! mate I got stacks of ammo if you want to play that line ! . Edited August 13, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Talking rubbish my own sister was bittern by a British Army Majors dog in his own house & she sued & won £900 for a bite on the hand ! mate I got stacks of ammo if you want to play that line ! . Exactly re read my post , she sued the dogs OWNER , not the bloke who sold the dog to the major , anything of this type will be the responsibility of the owner not the seller . Give up before you make yourself look dafter than you have already . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigadam Posted August 13, 2013 Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Threads going to get locked y cant people have a discussion like adults Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2013 Talking of bulls lets see what happens regarding a recent case ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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