Government loses the vote on Syria.

[ordnance]

 

It is true and so is the bit about pakistan. There was a US drone attack yesterday. Which i add, is giving the taliban popularity in the region... and a very anti american mood.

 

 

No one is denying that there are drone attacks I doubt they are happening without a nod from the Pakistan government I am sure they could shoot down some of the drones if they wanted to.

 

My question was in reply to the below post. I would be interested to see evidence to back it up. Or is it just another post making it up as they go along and posting it as fact. Hundreds killed daily.

 

 

hundreds of Pakistani women, children and old men are being killed daily by US drone attacks in Pakistan and we're not even at war.

Edited September 1, 2013 by ordnance

[matone]

 

The middle East is the old meeting place of east and west. A buffer zone where the old imperial hemisheres of Europe/America and Russia come to glare at each other. Much of the region is comprised not of properly socially and politically evolved countries but a collection of artificial constructs drawn from a post-imperial carve-up that occurred after the fall of the Ottoman Empire following the first world war. Borders were arbitrarily drawn by western powers, populations that had been held together by tribal and religious allegiences were split apart, uncharted historic territories were reallocated at the stroke of a bureaucrat's pen, and it that were not enough, Israel was parachuted into the middle of it. Then some fool discovered oil. It is not surprising the area is such a mess. The imperial powers of the day have used the middle east as an arena where they act out their power struggles. It is utterly indefensible that this is still going on. Much has been made in the press in Britain, Europe and the US of the "victory" that Britain's rejection of military intervention has handed to President Putin. It astonishes me that otherwise intelligent people are still discussing this part of the world in old imperial terms, in language that should have been obsolete 90 years ago. This is the Grand Game all over again. We would not be intervening to protect civilians, however we try to kid ourselves, but to protect some imagined prestige and preserve an outdated international pecking order. Dress it up how we will, this would be no humanitarian mission. This is a macabre pantomime. The powers of east and west are trying to ensure "their" guy wins, with the process impotently refereed by the UN. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, he may be a son-of-a-bitch but at least he'll be our son-of-a-bitch. Its dispicable.

If we really want to stop these perennial conflagrations in the middle east, at some point Europe Moscow and Washington will have to face up to the fact that we are living in the 21st centuary, not the nineteenth and this region does not belong to us. It never did. We have no right to decide its future. International militarism is the direct cause of much of the region's misery, not the solution. If the old world really wants to help it will restrict itself to offering unified and non-partisan humanitarian and diplomatic assistance. But I won't hold my breath.

Well said !

[unapalomablanca]

Anyone else delighted at this result? Finally parliament has grown a pair and told Washington to go and play world policeman on its own.

I'm heartily sick of UK governments thinking they have the moral authority to squander British money and British lives wading in to take charge of other peoples battles like some global playground attendant.

A very rare piece of good news from Westminster. I hope they stick to it.

Well, it took rebel mp's to scupper the idea. Make no mistake, old shiny face was raring to go and so were many others.

 

Quite frankly, the news and world events just want to make you crawl under a stone and hope it all goes away. I hate war and violence.

 

Did anyone watch the programme last night about the Algerian hostage outrage? told by the survivors. How can anybody beat the terrifying mindset that proclaims that it loves death more than we love life. Sad.

Edited September 1, 2013 by unapalomablanca

[subsonicnat]

On the news today Assad has welcomed an attack by the west WHY?,, Because he is a raving Nut who wants a war, The last one was Hitler:

He is goading the wst to have a go at him, So perhaps the evidence of using Sarin is staring us all in the face, A raving lunatic will stop at nothing to get it going, The Russians and Chinese have probably given him assurances from the meetings early on at the start, so he feels really cocky with talking like another Saddam..

If the Arabs could settle there problems within, it would keep the west out of it all together, but so many factions of Creed and religion will not allow it..

We cannot reply on the UN as they are weak and spineless, and just want to keep their jobs cushy, (Like The Blaires).. Even less to be trusted than Goverments in all countries: This is a right mess that as said before has been brewing for years, it hasn`t happened over night, Get the troops out of Iraq and lets see what happens..

They will all be ripping each others throats out in the middle east countries, for power again. Even Egypt doesn`t know what to make of it, Factions within will tear the place apart with bickering over the crumbs that are on offer.. I Do NOT have an Answer really, but there again others do not either:

[keg]

 

The middle East is the old meeting place of east and west. A buffer zone where the old imperial hemisheres of Europe/America and Russia come to glare at each other. Much of the region is comprised not of properly socially and politically evolved countries but a collection of artificial constructs drawn from a post-imperial carve-up that occurred after the fall of the Ottoman Empire following the first world war. Borders were arbitrarily drawn by western powers, populations that had been held together by tribal and religious allegiences were split apart, uncharted historic territories were reallocated at the stroke of a bureaucrat's pen, and it that were not enough, Israel was parachuted into the middle of it. Then some fool discovered oil. It is not surprising the area is such a mess. The imperial powers of the day have used the middle east as an arena where they act out their power struggles. It is utterly indefensible that this is still going on. Much has been made in the press in Britain, Europe and the US of the "victory" that Britain's rejection of military intervention has handed to President Putin. It astonishes me that otherwise intelligent people are still discussing this part of the world in old imperial terms, in language that should have been obsolete 90 years ago. This is the Grand Game all over again. We would not be intervening to protect civilians, however we try to kid ourselves, but to protect some imagined prestige and preserve an outdated international pecking order. Dress it up how we will, this would be no humanitarian mission. This is a macabre pantomime. The powers of east and west are trying to ensure "their" guy wins, with the process impotently refereed by the UN. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, he may be a son-of-a-bitch but at least he'll be our son-of-a-bitch. Its dispicable.

If we really want to stop these perennial conflagrations in the middle east, at some point Europe Moscow and Washington will have to face up to the fact that we are living in the 21st centuary, not the nineteenth and this region does not belong to us. It never did. We have no right to decide its future. International militarism is the direct cause of much of the region's misery, not the solution. If the old world really wants to help it will restrict itself to offering unified and non-partisan humanitarian and diplomatic assistance. But I won't hold my breath.

Well said but the problem is (as the Yanks discovered) that their guy may change at some point in the future. The US was happy to support the Afghans against the Russians as it suited. Understandably, once the Russians went, the Afghans didn't want ti kowtow to the Yanks either. The Yanks can't understand that not everyone want's their version of democracy. It's not that black and white.

[subsonicnat]

Well said but the problem is (as the Yanks discovered) that their guy may change at some point in the future. The US was happy to support the Afghans against the Russians as it suited. Understandably, once the Russians went, the Afghans didn't want ti kowtow to the Yanks either. The Yanks can't understand that not everyone want's their version of democracy. It's not that black and white.

Well said Keg, nailed it in one:

[Gimlet]

Well said but the problem is (as the Yanks discovered) that their guy may change at some point in the future. The US was happy to support the Afghans against the Russians as it suited. Understandably, once the Russians went, the Afghans didn't want ti kowtow to the Yanks either. The Yanks can't understand that not everyone want's their version of democracy. It's not that black and white.

 

These are precisely the kind of imperialist calculations I'm talking about. They're a nonsense.

[Malik]

My question was in reply to the below post. I would be interested to see evidence to back it up. Or is it just another post making it up as they go along and posting it as fact. Hundreds killed daily.

 

Oh i see! It would be safe to say that 100s die daily by US involvment globally. Not sure it can be pin pointed to just one location

 

http://www.policymic.com/articles/20884/is-america-like-adam-lanza-u-s-drone-strikes-have-killed-176-children-in-pakistan-alone

 

That is an interesting read. It kind of highlights why their war on terror isnt working and why hatred towards america in afghanistan and boardering areas will remain.

[Laird Lugton]

Hope they bomb at night. Can't wait to see what it looks like on my 47" Full HD LG and full surround sound.

Even if they don't, just watch your local TV in Norn Iron.

 

No doubt the Shankhill/Falls road will erupt when your fellow citizens torch the place......

 

By the way, touché is the word your looking for.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Laird Lugton

[truflex]

That's boring. It's like comparing Premiership football to non league.

[scolopax]

Bomb Syria, oil prices go up = more job security for me

 

 

but I think Syria is a classic case of wanting both sides to lose, neither side seems to be that appealing.

 

 

we should invade Norway instead, a: they have loads of oil, b: they won't be expecting it and c: the birds are very fit, e: not so far to travel

[ordnance]

 

Oh i see! It would be safe to say that 100s die daily by US involvment globally. Not sure it can be pin pointed to just one location.

I don't see where it says that hundreds are dying daily. Or

They murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians in their 'shock and awe' campaign.

 

If evidence cannot be posted to support this what is the point of posting apparent facts without backing them up.

Edited September 2, 2013 by ordnance