Rspb & NE

[Kes]

Here we go again! Same old ****.

How, as a member of a supposedly democratic organisation, can you consider it reasonable to subvert that democratic mix and attempt to skew its policy almost exclusively in favour of one small (relatively) group ? Everyone has paid subscriptions roughshooters, clay shooters, game shooters air rifle enthusiasts - start a wildfowling fund, link it to an awareness campaign and offer the experience to other members to extend the power of donations - if its XXXX to pose that question then you arent a democratic member you are simply selfish.

JMO - last time I vote for wildfowlers - cant see your type being quite so financially selfish on Council can we !

[henry d]

OK, how are RSPB and NE going to take over the Scottish foreshore? Basically they aren`t and neither are SNH etc. The best they can do is introduce LNR`s or SSSI`s.

 

How you take RSPB on down south is a hard one unless you have a united front and more people conforming to the non-toxic laws.

[mudpatten]

Kes,I think you have a fundamental, and worryingly naieve misunderstanding of exactly what democracy is.

[kent]

OK, how are RSPB and NE going to take over the Scottish foreshore? Basically they aren`t and neither are SNH etc. The best they can do is introduce LNR`s or SSSI`s.

 

How you take RSPB on down south is a hard one unless you have a united front and more people conforming to the non-toxic laws.

Wildfowlers generally do comply or risk loosing their membership, being prosecuted and being black balled by other clubs, potentially loosing you SGC anyway you cannot just go wildfowling here after being caught out. You must be in a club or own the ground, without a SGC your just stuffed. We take them on by NOT TAKING THEM ON- the future is co-operation if we are to improve things for both parties

[kent]

How, as a member of a supposedly democratic organisation, can you consider it reasonable to subvert that democratic mix and attempt to skew its policy almost exclusively in favour of one small (relatively) group ? Everyone has paid subscriptions roughshooters, clay shooters, game shooters air rifle enthusiasts - start a wildfowling fund, link it to an awareness campaign and offer the experience to other members to extend the power of donations - if its XXXX to pose that question then you arent a democratic member you are simply selfish.

JMO - last time I vote for wildfowlers - cant see your type being quite so financially selfish on Council can we !

Actually that is democracy, I shouldn't worry it will happen though as most wildfowlers can fall out with themselves if the room is devoid of others.

[Terry P]

OK, how are RSPB and NE going to take over the Scottish foreshore? Basically they aren`t and neither are SNH etc. The best they can do is introduce LNR`s or SSSI`s.

 

How you take RSPB on down south is a hard one unless you have a united front and more people conforming to the non-toxic laws.

Its already happening in Scotland Henry, rspb bought the farm at the end of the crook of baldoon and are now trying to persuade local council and SNH to close foreshore off in front of it, It seems everytime I visit the Eden another small area is lost to fowling. Plus I hear permission has been granted for a walk way round the Tay, that has the potential to open a whole can of worms.

 

Kent. I'm sorry but I must disagree about working with the rspb etc they will look after themselves fullstop as must we. How much of their land do they allow shooting over, whatever agreement they make it will be to their advantage, where they do allow it there are restrictions on this that and the other.

Its all well and good the odd staff saying they agree with you on certain issues, but the fact is the rspb needs cash, the only way they can get it is by pampering to their mostly zelot membership. Time and again they have skewed research finding to suit themselves and keep their members happy.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Terry P

[Reabrook]

How, as a member of a supposedly democratic organisation, can you consider it reasonable to subvert that democratic mix and attempt to skew its policy almost exclusively in favour of one small (relatively) group ? Everyone has paid subscriptions roughshooters, clay shooters, game shooters air rifle enthusiasts - start a wildfowling fund, link it to an awareness campaign and offer the experience to other members to extend the power of donations - if its XXXX to pose that question then you arent a democratic member you are simply selfish.

JMO - last time I vote for wildfowlers - cant see your type being quite so financially selfish on Council can we !

You didn't get it last time and you don't get it this time. I don't think you'd know a democracy if it was fired at you from an 8bore. If you don't like it tough. I for one won't let people like you turn my sport into a shadow of what it is to suit a one sized fits all politcaly motivated agenda.

[Barls2-9-12]

You will always get a few people within the rspb who don not object to wildfowling. But on a whole they are always going to be against it. They don't shoot wildfowl but wildfowlers do.

 

They will play the long game when it comes to shooting. Bit by bit they will do all they can to stop wildfowling.

 

They are very good at arguing there point. No matter what good we do as wildfowlers they will always have the argument that they are there to preserve bird life and habbitat and we are there to shoot it.

 

You don't hear them campaign against domestic cats, considering how many garden birds they kill each year. Because so many of there members have cats as pets.

[Kes]

Kes,I think you have a fundamental, and worryingly naieve misunderstanding of exactly what democracy is.

 

Thanks but I'll stick to my assumption that democracy should be representation of all the people all of the time - rather than a cabal, which you seem to suggest is not unreasonable in a democratic organisation.

 

You didn't get it last time and you don't get it this time. I don't think you'd know a democracy if it was fired at you from an 8bore. If you don't like it tough. I for one won't let people like you turn my sport into a shadow of what it is to suit a one sized fits all politcaly motivated agenda.

As for this drivel - enough is said in 'my' sport - BASC is ALL shooting sports often made up of 'people like me' - get back to your elitist cabal and leave ordinary shooters alone - your card is marked, - mate.

Democracy is by the people for the people - I think you are the one who 'doesn't get it', however democracy is open to abuse a bit like you propose really.

 

I suggest you restart WAGBI and find out how lonely it can get after all this self interest !

I presume you all but Kent feel the same ? Come on chaps or doesnt wildfowling breed truthfulness !

[mudpatten]

Kes,

 

In a democracy,every few years we have something called a "General Election" in which all those eligable so to do, cast their vote.

 

After that election the party that gets the most seats in Parliament makes the political agenda for the next few years.

 

How does that basic summation differ from what I propose the wildfowling community should be doing within BASC?

 

You use the term "cabal" in a derogatory sense. We have cabal`s in politics. They go by names such as New Labour, the Conservative and Unionist Party, the Liberal Democrats, and others.

 

And in case no one has noticed, wildfowling has been more legislated against, and has lost more appropriate shooting habitat than any other branch of shooting sport.

 

How do you propose we safeguard the future of wildfowling?

Edited September 16, 2013 by mudpatten

[RossEM]

The RSPB used to have a neutral stance on shooting but they have been infiltrated by non-pragmatic, protectionist hypocrites who are not interested in striking a balance or acknowledging those who part take in the largest conservation efforts in the UK - namely shooting interests. The RSPB's efforts might differ in that ultimately they do not like birds to be shot - but we all know it's not just the target species that benefit from conservation work. It's a shame that relations have soured, but BASC is very capable of answering inaccuracies in the media and educating the public on the realities of shooting sports.

 

However, I do believe that the shooting organisations will eventually need to merge. Yes, mergers require some redundancies, but I would've thought egos could be forgotten and sacrifices made for the greater good of the sport? If the grass roots of shooting is to have a future, we need much greater accessibility. Those who can afford to pay hundreds or thousands of pounds can always access shooting, but the vast majority of us are not wealthy and that is a barrier. The wildfowling clubs are good news for newcomers, as are the permit schemes, but if BASC were to increase their membership fee in order to fund the purchase/lease of inland shooting I for one would happily pay the extra...who else would?

[Terry P]

Thanks but I'll stick to my assumption that democracy should be representation of all the people all of the time - rather than a cabal, which you seem to suggest is not unreasonable in a democratic organisation.

 

As for this drivel - enough is said in 'my' sport - BASC is ALL shooting sports often made up of 'people like me' - get back to your elitist cabal and leave ordinary shooters alone - your card is marked, - mate.

Democracy is by the people for the people - I think you are the one who 'doesn't get it', however democracy is open to abuse a bit like you propose really.

 

I suggest you restart WAGBI and find out how lonely it can get after all this self interest !

I presume you all but Kent feel the same ? Come on chaps or doesnt wildfowling breed truthfulness !

No even Kent states that that is a democracy.

[Kes]

Kes,

 

In a democracy,every few years we have something called a "General Election" in which all those eligable so to do, cast their vote.

 

After that election the party that gets the most seats in Parliament makes the political agenda for the next few years.

 

How does that basic summation differ from what I propose the wildfowling community should be doing within BASC?

 

You use the term "cabal" in a derogatory sense. We have cabal`s in politics. They go by names such as New Labour, the Conservative and Unionist Party, the Liberal Democrats, and others.

 

And in case no one has noticed, wildfowling has been more legislated against, and has lost more appropriate shooting habitat than any other branch of shooting sport.

 

How do you propose we safeguard the future of wildfowling?

 

Since you ask, for which I thank you, I would start a campaign backed by BASC for a seedcorn fund to buy wildfowling areas on the basis of a priority list which wildfowlers draw up.

Call the fund the Wildfowling Heritage fund and go to BASC and ask who owns buisnesses who are members and contact them directly. Ask for a priority donation scheme to be backed by BASC, asking for specific donations for the purchase of available land. Describe it, its habitat, the species it supports and the reason its so important for 'fowling. Ask for a £10 one of or a £3 a month like the RSPB are at the moment. Say its a 'managed home' for Wildfowl but sell it very positively to shooters. If you get 30% of 130,000 thats say £400K ask BASc to part match-fund it. Seek business support to buy the land but be a conservation group first and wldfowling second. Offer lend lease arrangements with businesses buying land and 'folwers buying it back on the drip. I would start with the British Ports group. Make yourselves a group and the group a charity and save the tax. I am sure there must be loads of ways to try - raising your profile by using your past history, Peter Scott et al will perhaps point the way to do this. Sponsor some paintings of the 'morning flight' and sell them at an auction through BASC members. Start a wildlife art competition.

Ask some of the large agricultural firms to help- in areas where there are wildfowl problem for farmers - they invest in the land and wildfowlers manage it for the benfit of farmers. Move some of the unwanted fowl from Orkney to the south coast on the owned reserves.

If you start such a group - I would donate and I would offer to help. So mush more appropriate than 'blagging' the BASC Council just to use its reserves.

[kent]

Thanks but I'll stick to my assumption that democracy should be representation of all the people all of the time - rather than a cabal, which you seem to suggest is not unreasonable in a democratic organisation.

 

As for this drivel - enough is said in 'my' sport - BASC is ALL shooting sports often made up of 'people like me' - get back to your elitist cabal and leave ordinary shooters alone - your card is marked, - mate.

Democracy is by the people for the people - I think you are the one who 'doesn't get it', however democracy is open to abuse a bit like you propose really.

 

I suggest you restart WAGBI and find out how lonely it can get after all this self interest !

I presume you all but Kent feel the same ? Come on chaps or doesnt wildfowling breed truthfulness !

Don't get British and American history mixed up please, very different. I don't feel we need to re-start WAGBI

[kent]

The RSPB used to have a neutral stance on shooting but they have been infiltrated by non-pragmatic, protectionist hypocrites who are not interested in striking a balance or acknowledging those who part take in the largest conservation efforts in the UK - namely shooting interests. The RSPB's efforts might differ in that ultimately they do not like birds to be shot - but we all know it's not just the target species that benefit from conservation work. It's a shame that relations have soured, but BASC is very capable of answering inaccuracies in the media and educating the public on the realities of shooting sports.

 

However, I do believe that the shooting organisations will eventually need to merge. Yes, mergers require some redundancies, but I would've thought egos could be forgotten and sacrifices made for the greater good of the sport? If the grass roots of shooting is to have a future, we need much greater accessibility. Those who can afford to pay hundreds or thousands of pounds can always access shooting, but the vast majority of us are not wealthy and that is a barrier. The wildfowling clubs are good news for newcomers, as are the permit schemes, but if BASC were to increase their membership fee in order to fund the purchase/lease of inland shooting I for one would happily pay the extra...who else would?

Actually you might be reading too much shooting times. The wader project is very active here were I live and very much includes shooting of corvids etc. I am also as stated a member of a wildfowling club who the RSPB rent ground to for the purpose of shooting wildfowl. In deed the wader project supplied Larsens, are you aware that RSPB wardens have been trained to use firearms by BASC people? Its not for target shooting I assure you

I certainly would not condone BASC renting shooting, helping with the leases is something they already do. Why should a wildfowler want to fund someone elses shooting inland etc.? Stalking on Aran etc. was never the best idea IMO but they have not bought the shooting rights as such. If you have no or little shooting don't look to BASC to provide it, if you are happy to pay more join a syndicate or heaven forbid a wildfowling club. Many think they should drop that pathetic magazine and just concentrate on what is important

The damage that was done to the RSPB by Avery I fear was to put the relationship of the shooter and RSPB on the wrong footing (this works against both parties) perhaps this was his aim?. Pick a fight with the RSPB and you will loose and if you look at what is going to happen to the RSPCA if they do not reverse their policies you can see that maybe the RSPB made the right moves.

[Reabrook]

Thanks but I'll stick to my assumption that democracy should be representation of all the people all of the time - rather than a cabal, which you seem to suggest is not unreasonable in a democratic organisation.

 

 

As for this drivel - enough is said in 'my' sport - BASC is ALL shooting sports often made up of 'people like me' - get back to your elitist cabal and leave ordinary shooters alone - your card is marked, - mate.

Democracy is by the people for the people - I think you are the one who 'doesn't get it', however democracy is open to abuse a bit like you propose really.

 

I suggest you restart WAGBI and find out how lonely it can get after all this self interest !

I presume you all but Kent feel the same ? Come on chaps or doesnt wildfowling breed truthfulness !

Feel free to mark my card Pal!! I'll PM you my postcode. When you've done something other than post **** on a forum come back and shout about. That's me out I won't bandy words with a clueless wannabe,

[Grandalf]

My little fowling syndicate has only six members.

Our marsh is owned by Natural England and in the centre of a nature reserve.

Life is never going to be easy.

BASC has helped us enormously when it comes to licence renewal time - every year.

I have to accept the fact that because our battle is never ending whilst we have the same landlords, BASC cannot work for me 100% of the time. We are a very small fish in a very large pond.

But when I need urgent advice or a nudging telephone call or email to NE then I always get it.

I have had my battles with BASC over the years, I was taken over with WAGBI, but by and large they have done OK for me.

Purchase has got to be the way to go.

[edenman]

Its already happening in Scotland Henry, rspb bought the farm at the end of the crook of baldoon and are now trying to persuade local council and SNH to close foreshore off in front of it, It seems everytime I visit the Eden another small area is lost to fowling. Plus I hear permission has been granted for a walk way round the Tay, that has the potential to open a whole can of worms.Kent. I'm sorry but I must disagree about working with the rspb etc they will look after themselves fullstop as must we. How much of their land do they allow shooting over, whatever agreement they make it will be to their advantage, where they do allow it there are restrictions on this that and the other.Its all well and good the odd staff saying they agree with you on certain issues, but the fact is the rspb needs cash, the only way they can get it is by pampering to their mostly zelot membership. Time and again they have skewed research finding to suit themselves and keep their members happy.

There could be stuff happening with the RSPB on the Forth as well.....http://www.esawc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ESAWC-Newsletter-Sept.pdf see towards the bottom of the newsletter.

Edited September 17, 2013 by edenman

[RossEM]

Actually you might be reading too much shooting times. The wader project is very active here were I live and very much includes shooting of corvids etc. I am also as stated a member of a wildfowling club who the RSPB rent ground to for the purpose of shooting wildfowl. In deed the wader project supplied Larsens, are you aware that RSPB wardens have been trained to use firearms by BASC people? Its not for target shooting I assure you

I certainly would not condone BASC renting shooting, helping with the leases is something they already do. Why should a wildfowler want to fund someone elses shooting inland etc.? Stalking on Aran etc. was never the best idea IMO but they have not bought the shooting rights as such. If you have no or little shooting don't look to BASC to provide it, if you are happy to pay more join a syndicate or heaven forbid a wildfowling club. Many think they should drop that pathetic magazine and just concentrate on what is important

The damage that was done to the RSPB by Avery I fear was to put the relationship of the shooter and RSPB on the wrong footing (this works against both parties) perhaps this was his aim?. Pick a fight with the RSPB and you will loose and if you look at what is going to happen to the RSPCA if they do not reverse their policies you can see that maybe the RSPB made the right moves.

 

The persons I was referring to as 'infiltrating' the RSPB are those such as Avery (and his predecessor, I believe) who were both very much anti 'sport' shooting while ignoring the conservation efforts shooting interests make. Like I said, both parties share common interests so it's great, as you say, that there is still practical co operation between the two.

 

I suggested BASC could purchase/lease inland shooting to give those who otherwise don't have the opportunity...which surely can only be a good thing? I subsidise and support BASC's spending on all types of shooting (though I don't participate in all of them) as it isn't just a single discipline association, it's a shooting association, and we're all in the same boat as far as I'm concerned. Singling yourself out into one discipline is divisive - I don't think your average anti is against one type of shooting but neutral on another. We need to stick together!

 

Perhaps it would be better if BASC were to approach inland clubs/syndicates and set up a permit scheme as they have with the wildfowling clubs. I'm just thinking out loud here, but like I said there will always be a need for greater accessibility for newcomers.

 

I quite enjoy the mag actually, although I can see why not everyone does.

[kent]

 

The persons I was referring to as 'infiltrating' the RSPB are those such as Avery (and his predecessor, I believe) who were both very much anti 'sport' shooting while ignoring the conservation efforts shooting interests make. Like I said, both parties share common interests so it's great, as you say, that there is still practical co operation between the two.

 

I suggested BASC could purchase/lease inland shooting to give those who otherwise don't have the opportunity...which surely can only be a good thing? I subsidise and support BASC's spending on all types of shooting (though I don't participate in all of them) as it isn't just a single discipline association, it's a shooting association, and we're all in the same boat as far as I'm concerned. Singling yourself out into one discipline is divisive - I don't think your average anti is against one type of shooting but neutral on another. We need to stick together!

 

Perhaps it would be better if BASC were to approach inland clubs/syndicates and set up a permit scheme as they have with the wildfowling clubs. I'm just thinking out loud here, but like I said there will always be a need for greater accessibility for newcomers.

 

I quite enjoy the mag actually, although I can see why not everyone does.

 

Maybe you need to study the situation a bit more, BASC mag is pants has been for years. Full of preaching to the converted, although I am not a member I like the pro-active stance which the alliance have taken to

[RossEM]

Well, it is a member's magazine. I would expect any member's magazine to include reports on what subscriptions are being spent on and what action is being taken.

[kent]

Well, it is a member's magazine. I would expect any member's magazine to include reports on what subscriptions are being spent on and what action is being taken.

So no more pathetic articles and a stack of sponsored reviews and endorsements. What the money is being spent on is nice but you will never see a proper breakdown.

[Pole Star]

I have heard from a source that some £75k of members money per year goes on an entertainment package I assume its for lunching ect with important people & politicians ?

 

True or false ? just a question not an accusation , if this is true is it good value for money ? & I leave it open to any one who might want to dig a little further ?. .

 

Pole Star .

 

£75k per year might by more marsh ?

Edited September 22, 2013 by Pole Star

[mudpatten]

BASC publishes it`s independently audited accounts every year. These give a breakdown of every penny that is spent.

 

If you`re a member you will previously have recieved a copy in the pre AGM correspondence.

 

At the AGM, the membership will go through the accounts with a fine toothed comb.

 

I think a £75,000 pa slush fund is just a teensy, weensy bit optimistic.

 

The last time I did anything on expenses they quibbled every last penny and had the cheek to refuse to pay for three of my five lap dancers.

 

it would be nice to see or hear some proof of Kents assertion that BASC`s accounts are criminally tampered with in order to conceal true expenditure from it`s membership.

[kent]

BASC publishes it`s independently audited accounts every year. These give a breakdown of every penny that is spent.

 

If you`re a member you will previously have recieved a copy in the pre AGM correspondence.

 

At the AGM, the membership will go through the accounts with a fine toothed comb.

 

I think a £75,000 pa slush fund is just a teensy, weensy bit optimistic.

 

The last time I did anything on expenses they quibbled every last penny and had the cheek to refuse to pay for three of my five lap dancers.

 

it would be nice to see or hear some proof of Kents assertion that BASC`s accounts are criminally tampered with in order to conceal true expenditure from it`s membership.

No criminal tampering was inferred in any way what so ever- lets make that crystal clear THATS A SERIOUS ALLEGATION BE CAREFULL. I am both a supporter of BASC and a member- Yet I also understand about accounts and what is required to be shown in the case of companies and charities and the full tale is not told by published accounts due to materiality and charity commission rules. Please don't infer I acted slanderously towards BASC, all I said is you will never see a proper break down published (same with every such organisation). Who drives what car etc? BASC salaries are hardly lavish but then again neither were politicians..............