fac accuracy info needed

[shoot57]

Thinking of trying one of the daystates in fac say an air wolf, but on a 22cal at what power level do start to loose accuracy 40....50....60....ft/lb ?, And would .25 be any better at high power?

[pabs]

It's not really a case of at what ftlb of power a rifle will lose accuracy, it's to do with the projectile speed and design of the projectile. Your rifle may produce 30ftlb with an 18grain JSB Diablo pellet at an fps of 900 which is accurate. Now use a 16grain JSB Diablo pellet producing 30 ftlb at a 1000fps and you lose all accuracy. Try to forget ftlb output as an indicator of accuracy and think about the speed of the pellet instead.

[shoot57]

Thanks pabs, thats the sort of info i am looking for, so are you saying that over 900fps is the speed that things start to deteriorate or is this just a random speed example?

[pabs]

Thanks pabs, thats the sort of info i am looking for, so are you saying that over 900fps is the speed that things start to deteriorate or is this just a random speed example?

Over 900 is the speed things start to go south. There is the odd exception where you can push it out to around 1000fps, but 95% of the time 900 is the top end. You should be looking for around 850-900 fps for optimum speed/power/accuracy.

 

And as to your original question re: .25, yes go to .25 cal for extra power. Obviously pushing a .25 cal pellet of 25-30 grains at a stable 900fps will be giving you more downrange energy than a .22 cal 21 grain pellet would be at the same stable speed.

Edited September 14, 2013 by pabs

[turbo33]

Helpful and accurate advice from Pabs

I have the Airwolf MCT in FAC. Its the 40ftlb version. With Bisley magnums it does 36.5 ftlbs for 60 shots before the power starts to show any sign of decreasing. TBH, that's more than enough power. Out to 60-70 yards it will drill through a pigeon/crow, smashing the internals before exiting :o The best group I've had with it at distance, on paper, was a 1" group at 100yards. Better than I could do with the 22lr! I'm sure a better shot could do better. Personally, having had the experience with mine, I wouldn't go any higher than the 40ftlb version in 22. Less in a .20 and I wouldn't consider a .25. When you see the damage that this can do, less shots with a bigger pellet is imho overkill and just not necessary.

Edited September 14, 2013 by turbo33

[Guest cookoff013]

.25 all the way with fac.

[dadioles]

FAC Air is still something that I cannot quite get my head around. It seems as though a lot of people are trying to make it do what a .22lr and .17hmr are already more suited to.

 

Pellets are cheaper than bullets but it is not really that significant when you take into account the faffing around with air fills, and the capital cost of FAC Air is significantly greater and the rifle almost certainly heavier than rimfire.

 

I do see the attraction of lower power (sub 12ft lb air) for shooting in barns and similar areas but what is the advantage of FAC Air over rimfire for shooting rabbits, as an example.

 

To cover all opportunities I have a Rapid Mk2 sub 12ftlb air rifle, .22lr with day scope, .22lr with night vision and .17hmr with day scope.

 

FAC air is not even any quieter than a rimfire with subs so what is the attraction?

[Guest cookoff013]

FAC air is about performance, full stop.

 

if i ever went down that route, i`d just get a .25 and see what i can get at 950fps with either heavyweight pellets or so. it will eat up air, and pellets.. but the same can be said for every shooting system.

 

comparing fac air to .22 lr is a moot point because there are multiple brands bullet weight speeds etc.

 

dont loose sight of the fact, you want a big heavy piece of lead, going as fast as it can as accurately. as it can.

 

 

using fac air .22 is like an economy fac air.

[Rimfireboy]

FAC Air is still something that I cannot quite get my head around. It seems as though a lot of people are trying to make it do what a .22lr and .17hmr are already more suited to.

 

Pellets are cheaper than bullets but it is not really that significant when you take into account the faffing around with air fills, and the capital cost of FAC Air is significantly greater and the rifle almost certainly heavier than rimfire.

 

I do see the attraction of lower power (sub 12ft lb air) for shooting in barns and similar areas but what is the advantage of FAC Air over rimfire for shooting rabbits, as an example.

 

To cover all opportunities I have a Rapid Mk2 sub 12ftlb air rifle, .22lr with day scope, .22lr with night vision and .17hmr with day scope.

 

FAC air is not even any quieter than a rimfire with subs so what is the attraction?

The pellets lose energy much quicker than .22 bullets so they're safer to use, and you wouldn't shoot bullets up into trees. There's two reasons.

[shoot57]

We are not comparing fac air with a .22rf dadioles, Its just i myself am an air rifle enthusiast, and i use rifles from air gun up to 243 i do like fac air to extend the range for rabbit shooting which is why i asked the question concerning accuracy because as with any shooting accuracy is the most important part, i assume you would agree with that. The fac air rifle has a few plus points over the rimfire because crows pigeons and squirrels can all be taken from trees and on the ground you don't get as many ricochets as you do with the .22rf ... But all very interesting points of view

[turbo33]

FAC Air is still something that I cannot quite get my head around. It seems as though a lot of people are trying to make it do what a .22lr and .17hmr are already more suited to.

 

Pellets are cheaper than bullets but it is not really that significant when you take into account the faffing around with air fills, and the capital cost of FAC Air is significantly greater and the rifle almost certainly heavier than rimfire. The "faffing" is all part of the package and its not chore, 2 second job. As regards cost, for me, its my hobby and what I like to spend my money on, as well as the shotguns, and rimfires. Agreed, heavier, but gain, not an issue for me.

 

I do see the attraction of lower power (sub 12ft lb air) for shooting in barns and similar areas but what is the advantage of FAC Air over rimfire for shooting rabbits, as an example. No difference really. It kills them exactly the same way, except my FAC Air is more accurate than the 22lr.

 

To cover all opportunities I have a Rapid Mk2 sub 12ftlb air rifle, .22lr with day scope, .22lr with night vision and .17hmr with day scope.

 

FAC air is not even any quieter than a rimfire with subs so what is the attraction? Mine is quieter. You can get FAC Air cleared for land that you can't for rimfire. Its knockdown power is huge, but the distance is not that of a rimfire, so you can take calculated elevated shots with it, whereas with a rimfire its a complete no, no.

The most important aspect of it though is the grin factor

Edited September 14, 2013 by turbo33

[pabs]

Why would you choose FAC Air over .22lr?

Simple. It's more accurate. As long as you stay within the boundaries of the projectile's performance. .22 lr is good out to what, 100 yards? Maybe a little further. And what can you put on paper at that range with a .22lr? Around an inch? Fac air using a good quality Diablo pellet will print sub 1 inch at 100 yards. Especially with .25 calibre. Oh I know, lots of people on here will say FAC air is only good out to 50 or 60 yards. Sorry, that's nonsense. Either they can't shoot that far, or more likely, they haven't tried. Plus of course the terminal range of a pellet is a lot less than that of a bullet, which makes it suitable for tree shooting( given a decent amount of area behind of course)

Horses for courses as always. You can't beat the knockdown power of a.22lr shunting a subsonic 40 grain hollownose at 1000fps. But you also can't beat a FAC air pushing a 21-31 grain pellet at pinpoint accuracy. You take yer choices.

[turbo33]

Just thinking back over this year, I should think my Airwolf has accounted for 60+ pigeons and a few corvids and a couple of squirrels. In most of the cases, I wouldn't have used the 22lr on the grounds of safety. So it has given me outings/opportunities that I wouldn't otherwise have had.

When the leaf is off the trees, I will be out with it on the squirrels. I will use the 22lr as well under the feeders, but the Airwolf will do both.

Edited September 14, 2013 by turbo33

[Dekers]

FAR too much generalisation going on here, "you can fire a FAC air rifle into a tree but not a .22lr"...why not? Seems like a lot of people have never heard of shorts or longs or caps or shotshells etc for the .22lr, and what about these.........

 

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=960

 

There is also a segmented version of this but I don't think it is available in the UK yet!

 

FAC AIR has a place, I have 12ft lb, FAC Air and 2 x .22lr etc etc, but many have presented a far to black and white picture of FAC Air and.22lr.

 

As for accuracy, that is going to come down to the barrel, pellet, power, repeatability, etc.. I'm not getting this FAC air is more accurate than .22lr either, I think there are a few shooters that will give you an argument about that, there have been many threads here where people suggest they can put their .22lr into one hole at 50 yards.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Dekers

[turbo33]

Morning Dekers.

You can get the segmented ones. One of my gamekeepers has been using them for a while. He says he doesn't find them as accurate as normal subs, but out to 50 yards, about the same. The damage though is akin to an HMR apparently. :o http://www.henrykrank.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=57_478_481&products_id=4734 I picked up some form my local dealer to try. But probably won't get them on a regular basis as normal subs do the job out to further ranges and these are expensive in comparative terms.

 

50yards, one hole with a 22lr or FAC air isn't that un realistic is it :hmm:There will be a few giving that a go now, might even try it myself Your'e right about pellet, barrel etc. The holy grail, we all search for it

Edited September 15, 2013 by turbo33

[pabs]

FAR too much generalisation going on here, "you can fire a FAC air rifle into a tree but not a .22lr"...why not? Seems like a lot of people have never heard of shorts or longs or caps or shotshells etc for the .22lr, and what about these.........

 

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=960

 

There is also a segmented version of this but I don't think it is available in the UK yet!

 

FAC AIR has a place, I have 12ft lb, FAC Air and 2 x .22lr etc etc, but many have presented a far to black and white picture of FAC Air and.22lr.

 

As for accuracy, that is going to come down to the barrel, pellet, power, repeatability, etc.. I'm not getting this FAC air is more accurate than .22lr either, I think there are a few shooters that will give you an argument about that, there have been many threads here where people suggest they can put their .22lr into one hole at 50 yards.

 

Yes there is alternative ammunition for the lr, but who wants to re-zero every time they want to do some tree shooting. And as for shotshells I don't think I've ever heard of any one having any joy with those? And let's face it, shooting stuff in trees is a good excuse to buy another gun....

And as for accuracy, yeah, that will always be open to debate of course. A half decent lr with a semi competent shooter can shoot a tight group at 50 yards, but beyond?.... That's not to say you won't get the exception but I'll maintain that a good FAC air rifle with the right pellet etc will out shoot an lr at the longer ranges.

[Dekers]

Morning Dekers.

You can get the segmented ones. One of my gamekeepers has been using them for a while. He says he doesn't find them as accurate as normal subs, but out to 50 yards, about the same. The damage though is akin to an HMR apparently. :o http://www.henrykrank.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=57_478_481&products_id=4734 I picked up some form my local dealer to try. But probably won't get them on a regular basis as normal subs do the job out to further ranges and these are expensive in comparative terms.

 

50yards, one hole with a 22lr or FAC air isn't that un realistic is it :hmm:There will be a few giving that a go now, might even try it myself Your'e right about pellet, barrel etc. The holy grail, we all search for it

 

Your link is to the normal segmented subs......

 

This was the segmented I meant.........

 

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0970

 

the Quiet segmented, not the ordinary ones...are these now available in the UK?

Edited September 15, 2013 by Dekers

[turbo33]

I see The ones I have are the normal segmented subs at 40grn, 1050 fps. The ones you are referring to are same weight, but 710 fps. Interesting.

I just put the figures through chairgun. Using your "quite" segmented shells, produces as near as dam it, the same trajectory as a .22 air rifle at 21 ft/lbs with an 18grn pellet.

I guess they have a slightly comparable use, except I'm 100% with Pabs on the accuracy of the FAC Air over the 22lr in my case.

[Dekers]

 

Yes there is alternative ammunition for the lr, but who wants to re-zero every time they want to do some tree shooting. And as for shotshells I don't think I've ever heard of any one having any joy with those? And let's face it, shooting stuff in trees is a good excuse to buy another gun....

And as for accuracy, yeah, that will always be open to debate of course. A half decent lr with a semi competent shooter can shoot a tight group at 50 yards, but beyond?.... That's not to say you won't get the exception but I'll maintain that a good FAC air rifle with the right pellet etc will out shoot an lr at the longer ranges.

 

You have to potentially change zero when you change pellet, even pellet batch of the same sort, you have to do that with all ammo for all rifles.

 

Just the same back in the day when I used subs and HV in my .22lr I had the trajectory off pat and got along fine without any re-zeroing, I knew the path of the subs and HV and compensated on the scope, quite straightforward!

 

Shotshells have a place, as do so many things, I have taken a handful of birds/squirrels with them internally, I wouldn't be chucking these up many trees though, unless they were very small trees! And the fact is I haven't used a .22 shotshell for years!

 

What power in the FAC air and what pellet type/weight? The air rifle pellets are far too susceptible to wind in comparison with .22lr subs and normal velocity .22lr for long range accuracy, of course there are plenty of poor .22lr rounds, so too are there for air rifle pellets, but on the basis air rifle pellets tend to have a BC between approx. 0.010-0.035 and .22lr tend to have a BC between 0.090-0.140, the right .22lr ammo/barrel combination "should" destroy a FAC air in the accuracy dept.

[Rimfireboy]

You have to potentially change zero when you change pellet, even pellet batch of the same sort, you have to do that with all ammo for all rifles.

 

Just the same back in the day when I used subs and HV in my .22lr I had the trajectory off pat and got along fine without any re-zeroing, I knew the path of the subs and HV and compensated on the scope, quite straightforward!

 

Shotshells have a place, as do so many things, I have taken a handful of birds/squirrels with them internally, I wouldn't be chucking these up many trees though, unless they were very small trees! And the fact is I haven't used a .22 shotshell for years!

 

What power in the FAC air and what pellet type/weight? The air rifle pellets are far too susceptible to wind in comparison with .22lr subs and normal velocity .22lr for long range accuracy, of course there are plenty of poor .22lr rounds, so too are there for air rifle pellets, but on the basis air rifle pellets tend to have a BC between approx. 0.010-0.035 and .22lr tend to have a BC between 0.090-0.140, the right .22lr ammo/barrel combination "should" destroy a FAC air in the accuracy dept.

+1

[sitsinhedges]

FAC air has all the accuracy problems associated with sub12 airguns and to be honest if I didn't think a shot safe it would apply to fac air, 22 and 17 equally. Personally I don't feel it safe to be shooting any of them up into trees. Since I got my 17hmr it just highlights the shortcomings of fac air and how much more difficult it is to shoot accurately. I have 22 fac air at the moment but would like to try a .25 for closer range stopping power. I've had fac air go straight thru a bunnys head then richochet more than once but they're not viable for reliable body shots like a rimmy is.

[karpman]

I have Fac air cleared on 2 sets of land were the rimmy is not. My rifle with the cost of my ticket cost a good 150 quid less than the 12ftlb equivalent on the used market.

 

Its on a open ticket and if the gun shop finally puts it right I will be putting it to good use on all sorts of vermin.

 

Comparing rim fires with air rifles is flawed on the land I will be using mine on because they will not clear the land for rimmy use.

 

Karpman

[shoot57]

As i say all interesting points of view but if i can drift back to fac air, there seems to be a couple of thumbs up to the .25 cal air gun, i would be interested in the views of users of this cal ... accuracy ... trajectory ... wind drift. It seems this cal is being spoken about more favourably now and in fac i would imagine it hits with some force

[Dekers]

As i say all interesting points of view but if i can drift back to fac air, there seems to be a couple of thumbs up to the .25 cal air gun, i would be interested in the views of users of this cal ... accuracy ... trajectory ... wind drift. It seems this cal is being spoken about more favourably now and in fac i would imagine it hits with some force

 

There is nothing wrong with the accuracy out to reasonable range with the right pellet, but your pellet choice is limited.

 

With regard trajectory and terminal energy that will depend on pellet weight and gun power, suffice to say you will need decent power to produce anything better than a rainbow arc trajectory for any reasonable weight of pellet!

 

Don't forget shot count is appalling the higher Ft Lb you get, and keep your fingers crossed on shot to shot power consistency as well. A pal had an 80ft lb .22 Daystate factory new, and was lucky to get 6-8 shots out of it, no two shots being the same power. And don't forget the price of a new FAC high power Air Rifle.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Dekers

[Sheldon Cooper]

What did people think about the .30 fx boss on feild sport channel?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U4-1l8-BK60

 

That. Thing packs a punch