Brent geese

[strangford wildfowler]

I'm in northern ireland, I know jack snipe can still be shot but unsure about curlew?

[Tedward]

Anybody know when redshank were taken off the quarry list in England/Wales?

cheers, Tedward.

[wildfowler.250]

Pretty sure curlew are off now in N.I. ?

 

They defs should go back on in the uk. There's no shortage where I am

[pintale pete]

Anybody know when redshank were taken off the quarry list in England/Wales?

cheers, Tedward.

1981 same as the curlew ,,,,,

[rascal72]

No shortage of curlew where we go and licenses for limited numbers of barnacles have been issued for last season and this all be it only 20 per farm for those concerned

[kent]

Because of their breeding biology brent are not suitable as a quarry species. The problem is they are high Arctic breeding geese and their breeding biology is linked in with lemmings and Arctic foxes. Lemmings are the main food for arctic foxes and run on a 3-4 year cycle. Over a couple of years lemming numbers build up and so do the foxes. Then the lemmings eat themselves out of house and home and numbers crash , but for a while the fox population remains high. After the lemming crash the foxes turn to the brent geese goslings and eggs as their main form of food and this frequently results in no young reaching the flying stage over most of the brents breeding range. The fox numbers then decline from starvation and the lemmings start to recover and so on over a 3-4 year cycle. So the brent tend to have a very good breeding season followed by one or two average breeding seasons and then a complete failure. Coupled into this breeding season is the weather. In some cold summers when the snow does not melt on the breeding tundra again the brent will have a very poor breeding season.

 

The yanks opened a season on brent back in the 1980s after protection for many years and it was a disaster. The first year of the open season coincided with a breeding failure and a cold winter on the wintering grounds. The Atlantic flyway population of brent fell by over a third in one season and despite much shorter seasons than we have and very low bag limits. Now the Americans monitor the production of young on the breeding grounds before the open season and will restrict the season if the birds are doing badly.

 

In a good breeding shooting brent will have little effect on their numbers, but shooting them in a bad breeding season will take out a lot of the adult breeding stock. In Europe unlike America we do not monitor the pre breeding success of our quarry species so have no early warning of a poor breeding season so we could easily have a similar situation as the yanks had with a heavy cull. This would be a PR disaster for the image of wildfowling in the eye of the public.

 

Perhaps we could have an open season if we had the restrictions the Americans have , but if we had bag limits or variable seasons we would be opening a can of worms that would difficult to shut. The conservation bodies would press for season changes for other wildfowl and we could end up with a situation where we could shoot teal but not pintail on a flight or find the shooting season shortened if its been a bad breeding season for mallard. Do we want to risk this just to shoot brent. Brent numbers in England peaked 25 years ago and they have declined since so unlike some other species shooting to control numbers does not apply. They were the most common goose in the UK , now they are now less common than pinks, greylags or Canada’s

 

There are other risks too. Brent have become quite tame through protection. They are mainly found on Eastern and Southern England , the very areas where the most people live and there is a high risk of some fool shooting a big bag of brent under the publics nose and the press getting hold of the story, another PR disaster waiting to happen. Finally our main excuse for shooting brent would be to protect crops which can already be done under licence. Half the food brent eat come from the saltmarsh , an open season on them would drive them more onto farmland and make the problems they cause worse. No the best answer is to leave brent alone for now unless their numbers get out of hand.

That's fascinating! Why not just control the fox numbers and hence control the population crashes?

[kent]

Don't take this as gospel but I thought Ireland kept the Curlew only recently? I live on a moorland breeding site for this bird under special conservation measures locally (at quite a cost). its a very up and down breeder here and suffers from predators and weather changes, I shouldn't want to shoot one they are delightful birds to observe and quite game in defence of their young against crows etc. Also having a whole vocal range outside that commonly heard they herald the changes, then in one flight they all disappear en mass back to the saltmarsh

[Pole Star]

Ok whats wrong with shorter seasons & bag limits to bring some of the quarry we have lost back on the list even as a test case perhaps ? , yes I know the RSPB would fight it tooth & nail & the numbers boys are frothing at the mouth because I have mentioned bag limits , but is it worth a try ? .

 

Just a thought Pole Star

 

ps Eric Beggbie had a campaign to get the Curlew back on the quarry list some time ago but heard no more of it , anyone know if its ongoing ?

Edited October 2, 2013 by Pole Star

[anser2]

Kent , we are talking about brent breeding areas , the high Arctic where one can walk across the tundra for days , perhaps weeks and no come across another human. Nobody lives there to control foxes.

 

 

As for shorter seasons and bag limits. The RSPB would love that and we would run a high risk of losing a lot of shooting time. Because very little survey work is done in the European Arctic and Northern Russia it would be impossible to know how many young ducks have been produces to set the bag limits until ducks arrive in mid and southern Europe in October. The season will have already started before any work could be done here and by time it was done and the data analysed it would be well into mid season. Too late to be any good.

As for having different seasons for different species it would not work. Id of quarry duck is bad enough in daylight let alone in deep dusk or under the moon. How can you split up a gadwall from a mallard under the moon, or a hen pintail from a wigeon in the deep dusk , something you would need to do if they all had different seasons. As for bag limits do we really want that? I have my own bag limits on geese with a max of six and sometimes if I have shot a few birds in previous days I stop at 2. But that is my choice and I would hate to make it law for everyone to do the same. In the case of geese we have rapidly increasing populations for some species and with farmers calling for greater controls if those populations get out of hand will we see calls to shoot geese at anytime of year or worse as the Dutch do gas thousands of geese to keep their numbers down.

 

The system we have is not perfect , but as a whole it works , gives us good sport without damaging population levels. I few fools abuse it , but such people are in a minority.

[SuperGoose75]

 

They were still on the list in Eire as were Jack Snipe some years ago but things may have changed

 

ATB

 

Curlew taken of the list last year.Jack snipe can still be shot.

 

Only a couple of breeding pairs of Curlew recorded in our County last year.Of Course We get an influx of migratory Birds but not many shooting men I know bothered that much with them' as they are what is known as the lesser fowl variety. Shooters where getting some stick on a birding site and blamed for there decline' but when challenged as to the proof of there statements and had they anything to back it up ' Numbers Shot ect' they fell silent..Which was not surprising.!!

[strangford wildfowler]

This is surprising supergoose because where I am there are loads of curlew although they disappear over the summer months, is this breeding time? Anyway when mid augest is here so are the curlew in there drouges.

 

Atb SW

[Penelope]

Not wildfowl, which is what Strangford was asking about.

 

Curlew?

[Penelope]

The Dutch have their heads up their *****!

 

OK to gas, but not ok for sporting shooting, and thus population control.

 

Kent , we are talking about brent breeding areas , the high Arctic where one can walk across the tundra for days , perhaps weeks and no come across another human. Nobody lives there to control foxes.

 

 

As for shorter seasons and bag limits. The RSPB would love that and we would run a high risk of losing a lot of shooting time. Because very little survey work is done in the European Arctic and Northern Russia it would be impossible to know how many young ducks have been produces to set the bag limits until ducks arrive in mid and southern Europe in October. The season will have already started before any work could be done here and by time it was done and the data analysed it would be well into mid season. Too late to be any good.

As for having different seasons for different species it would not work. Id of quarry duck is bad enough in daylight let alone in deep dusk or under the moon. How can you split up a gadwall from a mallard under the moon, or a hen pintail from a wigeon in the deep dusk , something you would need to do if they all had different seasons. As for bag limits do we really want that? I have my own bag limits on geese with a max of six and sometimes if I have shot a few birds in previous days I stop at 2. But that is my choice and I would hate to make it law for everyone to do the same. In the case of geese we have rapidly increasing populations for some species and with farmers calling for greater controls if those populations get out of hand will we see calls to shoot geese at anytime of year or worse as the Dutch do gas thousands of geese to keep their numbers down.

 

The system we have is not perfect , but as a whole it works , gives us good sport without damaging population levels. I few fools abuse it , but such people are in a minority.

[kent]

Kent , we are talking about brent breeding areas , the high Arctic where one can walk across the tundra for days , perhaps weeks and no come across another human. Nobody lives there to control foxes.

 

 

As for shorter seasons and bag limits. The RSPB would love that and we would run a high risk of losing a lot of shooting time. Because very little survey work is done in the European Arctic and Northern Russia it would be impossible to know how many young ducks have been produces to set the bag limits until ducks arrive in mid and southern Europe in October. The season will have already started before any work could be done here and by time it was done and the data analysed it would be well into mid season. Too late to be any good.

As for having different seasons for different species it would not work. Id of quarry duck is bad enough in daylight let alone in deep dusk or under the moon. How can you split up a gadwall from a mallard under the moon, or a hen pintail from a wigeon in the deep dusk , something you would need to do if they all had different seasons. As for bag limits do we really want that? I have my own bag limits on geese with a max of six and sometimes if I have shot a few birds in previous days I stop at 2. But that is my choice and I would hate to make it law for everyone to do the same. In the case of geese we have rapidly increasing populations for some species and with farmers calling for greater controls if those populations get out of hand will we see calls to shoot geese at anytime of year or worse as the Dutch do gas thousands of geese to keep their numbers down.

 

The system we have is not perfect , but as a whole it works , gives us good sport without damaging population levels. I few fools abuse it , but such people are in a minority.

 

ok I see that now - never been, just seemed the logical approach. As for quarry ID, I think you are walking over quicksand on that one (A Brent is just so totally different) and as for the mention of duck "the golden rule applies", personally I do not shoot silhouetted birds in flight under the moon unless I am sure, it seems to work - if I am not sure I hold my shot till I get confirmation via call etc.) . The Dutch of course are totally barmy in their attitude to field sports yet feel its ok to slaughter such birds by what can only be described as hideously wasteful methods. I once read the Dutch shooters brought this upon themselves via the small numbers shot but I am not in charge of all the facts on that matter.

[Grandalf]

Years ago - and legally I might add - I had a redshank and a curlew for my dinner. They were both inedible unless you were on the point of starvation!

I think brent would be in the same category so I, for one, see no point in shooting them.

[Tedward]

Have to differ, - I ate many back in the late 60s. Both fine early in the season,

Curlew needed a bit more care when cooking them after Christmas. (apple and onion placed inside helped).

Never eaten Brent.

cheers, Tedward.

[anser2]

Back in the days when they were a quarry species I used to eat a lot of curlew and never had a bad one even in cold weather. We used to debreast them , put the in a stew with mushromms , what ever veg you have available , a tin of Mullagtawny soup and an oxo. Cook on a low heat for 4 hours and the resulting meal is great after a day on the marsh, better than many a wigeon or goose i have tasted. Though i was very against protecting curlew in hind sight it was probably the right thing to do. Some of you may well have plenty on your local marsh , but both nationaly and on a European level curlew have declined despite a shooting ban in m0pst European countries. The main reason is loss of their wetland breeding habitat.

[SuperGoose75]

This is surprising supergoose because where I am there are loads of curlew although they disappear over the summer months, is this breeding time? Anyway when mid augest is here so are the curlew in there drouges.

 

Atb SW

 

Them be migratory Curlew you are seeing Strangford that have come down from Iceland/Greenland. Resident curlew head for the hills and moors during the summer months to breed. the last count revealed very few breeding residents. As for curlew as a table bird' I have shot a few over the years and the preferred and advised method of cooking was to put them in a curry.No doubt to mask the flavour. They where not to bad but I would not be licking my lips thinking about them. Ive had some good sport with them on windy nights and they where a very deceiving bird and not at all easy to hit.

 

I have been to castle espie on a number of occasions to see the flocks of Brent and walked the shores of Strangford in front of the WWT site. The Brent that come to stangford and Ireland in General are of the pale varied variety and come from Greenland and Canada.i dont know if you have seen the programme on BBC tv a few yrs back entitled Supergoose..Not my user name as that is so called after a Gun'. They where doing research on the Brent that winter in Ireland and a friend of mine from Wexford Rocket netted a few on the Wexford slobs and tagged them and put radio transmitters on 6 geese. The Brent first arrive on strangford before dispersing throughout Ireland down as far as Wexford and possibly further.the 6 geese were given names and a team also went to Greenland to try and locate them on the breeding grounds.It was all interesting stuff and I cant remember exactly how many of the 6 tagged birds returned to strangford the following year.If you do a google search you may get some info on the project.

 

As for putting them back on the list' I would not be that bothered to tell you the truth.i would go along with anser2 in the sense that they have become very tame' Although as a table bird they may have become more palatable as they now mostly feed inland as apposed to the saltings and although they mostly feed on Grass I have seen them feeding with grey geese on the stubbles aswell.

 

I have an open invitation to shoot strangford from a friend who lives on the coast at Donaghadee that I must take up in the near future' as i have never got round to it as yet.

Seemed to be plenty of Shooting going on directly across from the WWT centre the last time i visited. Im assuming that is comber wildfowlers grounds..?

[Penelope]

As an aside, there was a programme broadcast on BBC2 last week about the Bar Headed Geese and their migration across the Himalayas from the Tibetan plateau to Nepal and India.

 

 

Them be migratory Curlew you are seeing Strangford that have come down from Iceland/Greenland. Resident curlew head for the hills and moors during the summer months to breed. the last count revealed very few breeding residents. As for curlew as a table bird' I have shot a few over the years and the preferred and advised method of cooking was to put them in a curry.No doubt to mask the flavour. They where not to bad but I would not be licking my lips thinking about them. Ive had some good sport with them on windy nights and they where a very deceiving bird and not at all easy to hit.

 

I have been to castle espie on a number of occasions to see the flocks of Brent and walked the shores of Strangford in front of the WWT site. The Brent that come to stangford and Ireland in General are of the pale varied variety and come from Greenland and Canada.i dont know if you have seen the programme on BBC tv a few yrs back entitled Supergoose..Not my user name as that is so called after a Gun'. They where doing research on the Brent that winter in Ireland and a friend of mine from Wexford Rocket netted a few on the Wexford slobs and tagged them and put radio transmitters on 6 geese. The Brent first arrive on strangford before dispersing throughout Ireland down as far as Wexford and possibly further.the 6 geese were given names and a team also went to Greenland to try and locate them on the breeding grounds.It was all interesting stuff and I cant remember exactly how many of the 6 tagged birds returned to strangford the following year.If you do a google search you may get some info on the project.

 

As for putting them back on the list' I would not be that bothered to tell you the truth.i would go along with anser2 in the sense that they have become very tame' Although as a table bird they may have become more palatable as they now mostly feed inland as apposed to the saltings and although they mostly feed on Grass I have seen them feeding with grey geese on the stubbles aswell.

 

I have an open invitation to shoot strangford from a friend who lives on the coast at Donaghadee that I must take up in the near future' as i have never got round to it as yet.

Seemed to be plenty of Shooting going on directly across from the WWT centre the last time i visited. Im assuming that is comber wildfowlers grounds..?

[SuperGoose75]

As an aside, there was a programme broadcast on BBC2 last week about the Bar Headed Geese and their migration across the Himalayas from the Tibetan plateau to Nepal and India.

 

 

I seen bits and pieces of it and it was indeed interesting stuff.

[Penelope]

Again with the BBC though, a little too much presenter 'face' time.

 

 

I seen bits and pieces of it and it was indeed interesting stuff.

[subsonicnat]

Have seen a few Brent turn up in the past week or so along with the wigeon.

 

Be good to have them back on the quarry list but wouldn't hold your breath. Does anyone know what they taste like? Be good to know

You can keep them for eating if they did come back, shot one many years back, Salty as Hell, Eat the Brick you put in with Them.. Yuck.

[peeshooter]

Well the brent are back again at strangford lough, anyone else think there early?

Also how many wildfowlers think they should be put back on the lincence?

 

My personal view on them are as a pest because they eat all the grazing for other birds and they make a mess of a permision I have.

yes but they taste like **** so should lapwings !

[Dr D]

There are up to 80000 brent on strangford. The reason they were taken off the list was not to protect the species as a whole but rather the subspecies of pale bellied brent. Strangford is the most improtant wintering ground for the subspecies in europe. However, the numbers of the dark bellied have destroyed what is one of the largest sea loughs in europe.

 

Curlew were only taken off the list two years ago in nireland, the same time as jays were also removed. So much for the political influence of the basc! Doesnt matter I suppose, curlew are rotten to eat once they have been off the hills for any lenght of time. Its the goldies you want to get under strangford.

[wildfowler.250]

Have to say I've heard curlew are good but as with all things, it depends what they are feeding on.

 

Wigeon off a flooded field and wigeon off the mud are night and day