If there was a total ban on lead .....?

[wymberley]

I mean no offence but you are going to left behind with an attitude like that.

 

Like you, I mean no offence - but thanks for the laugh - a real 'schoolboy howler' of a post. I share something with Harnser and with his sense of humour I bet he's laughing too. I bit of research might have helped.

[kent]

 

Well I don't know how many steel shells I have shot but its more than a few. Steel shells are made using different wads etc and it just don't come into contact with the barrel wall unless something has gone very wrong. Don't compare lead with steel the two are very different. if anyone wants to inspect my auto they are very welcome its been fed Steel for the last 4-5 seasons that I have owned it from new and through the wildfowling season I normally do around two flights a week - not a single score. Frankly I feel either you or the third party gunsmith made this one up, believe me us wildfowlers would not be using the stuff if guys were ruining guns and as a member of three clubs I know of nobody who has and the ban has been on for many years now for us

 

I just hope that you are honest enough to come back on here and when you do see evidence of damaged barrels from steel shot .It only takes one pellet to spoil a gun ,and may be you will be man enough to apologise for accusing me of making it up .The problem is very real ,and I say it again I have seen it .

 

Harnser.

 

In actual fact I have seen pictures of a forcing cone damaged on a clay shooters gun, allegedly by steel. I can only assume the nut job tried loading with fibre wads. I state again as a member of three Wildfowling clubs I know a few guys and nobody has ever mentioned ant damage, about 99% use steel

[kent]

Here is one for the small shot doubters

Number 6 steel AM BC .0164

 

Muzzle velocity 1375 fps at 35 yds 604 fps.

 

600 fps will kill the life out of most birds up to the size of a pheasant if it hits the vital zones. FT/LB energy although it bears some relevance is of less importance because T shot will not penetrate as deeply at 600 fps as the number 6 due to its larger surface area will though will hold a lot more kinetic energy at the same speed.

 

 

That said I prefer no.3 for duck and number 1 up for geese as I don't need lighter loads so I can get the required pellet count to fill my pattern with larger shot

 

 

Just saying STEEL ISNT LEAD and you need to open your mind to the possibilities. As posted people are safely using loads pushing 1500-1700 fps velocity has been the missing link in a lot of the early UK steel loads and has dented its reputation, this is mainly because of comparison with lead (the whole two shot size up although fair advice in general totally screwed our progression) however its time to move on because like it or not its the future and it aint all bleak it actually holds many advantages.

[sitsinhedges]

Here is one for the small shot doubters

Number 6 steel AM BC .0164

 

Muzzle velocity 1375 fps at 35 yds 604 fps.

 

600 fps will kill the life out of most birds up to the size of a pheasant if it hits the vital zones. FT/LB energy although it bears some relevance is of less importance because T shot will not penetrate as deeply at 600 fps as the number 6 due to its larger surface area will though will hold a lot more kinetic energy at the same speed.

 

 

That said I prefer no.3 for duck and number 1 up for geese as I don't need lighter loads so I can get the required pellet count to fill my pattern with larger shot

 

 

Just saying STEEL ISNT LEAD and you need to open your mind to the possibilities. As posted people are safely using loads pushing 1500-1700 fps velocity has been the missing link in a lot of the early UK steel loads and has dented its reputation, this is mainly because of comparison with lead (the whole two shot size up although fair advice in general totally screwed our progression) however its time to move on because like it or not its the future and it aint all bleak it actually holds many advantages.

 

Small slow shot wont kill effectively and it wont get to the vital zones if it hasn't enough energy to penetrate deeply.

[wymberley]

Here is one for the small shot doubters

Number 6 steel AM BC .0164

 

 

 

 

Interesting. Could you give a dimension to the No 6 steel and explain the AM BC .0164?

Many thanks.

[Guest cookoff013]

Small slow shot wont kill effectively and it wont get to the vital zones if it hasn't enough energy to penetrate deeply.

+1

@kent

Do you think 1700fps of steel 6 is a good load? That extra speed is nothing. Maybe on really light game. I have always recommended above average shotsize.even in lead. I think there is too much emphasis on speed these days. I don't get that the fact people get fixated on one aspect of a shell. Then think by some miricle that 6 steel at 1700 is a wonderful shell when really its just a 6 tricked up. That 200fps gains yards if the pattern holds

[geordieh]

 

Meaning you should ignore the law? That's what has gotten us to this point - non compliance

No,what has got us to this point, no pistols, no semi auto c/f.no lead for wildfowl,no guns for self protection,too many immigrants,petrol at £6+ a gallon,lack of capital punishment and lack of any punishment in schools is people like you saying I will bend over mr prime minister and you can stick it up my bottom again please.We should be saying stick your lead ban up your a*se we will not comply, otherwise we will lose everything piece by piece eventually.Can you imagine it lead banned, everyone using steel then the forestry people saying you cannot use steel because the steel shot is damaging circular saws and a steel ball when hit by a circular saw at 10000 rpm will come out of that wood faster than the shotgun put it in there,so that gets banned by health and safety where does it end? No shooting!!!

Geordie

[Harnser]

No,what has got us to this point, no pistols, no semi auto c/f.no lead for wildfowl,no guns for self protection,too many immigrants,petrol at £6+ a gallon,lack of capital punishment and lack of any punishment in schools is people like you saying I will bend over mr prime minister and you can stick it up my bottom again please.We should be saying stick your lead ban up your a*se we will not comply, otherwise we will lose everything piece by piece eventually.Can you imagine it lead banned, everyone using steel then the forestry people saying you cannot use steel because the steel shot is damaging circular saws and a steel ball when hit by a circular saw at 10000 rpm will come out of that wood faster than the shotgun put it in there,so that gets banned by health and safety where does it end? No shooting!!!

Geordie

 

You talk a lot of sense sir ,and I agee with you . Roll over and you are dead . Bend over and they will give it to you with a smile on their faces .

Harnser.

 

Harnser.

[Scully]

No,what has got us to this point, no pistols, no semi auto c/f.no lead for wildfowl,no guns for self protection,too many immigrants,petrol at £6+ a gallon,lack of capital punishment and lack of any punishment in schools is people like you saying I will bend over mr prime minister and you can stick it up my bottom again please.We should be saying stick your lead ban up your a*se we will not comply, otherwise we will lose everything piece by piece eventually.

A man after my own heart!

[wymberley]

Guys, I beg you, steady as she goes - I really would like Kent to be able to answer my question at Post #105.

 

Cheers,

Phil

[kent]

 

Small slow shot wont kill effectively and it wont get to the vital zones if it hasn't enough energy to penetrate deeply.

 

Big slow shot wont either, what's your point?

[kent]

Interesting. Could you give a dimension to the No 6 steel and explain the AM BC .0164?

Many thanks.

 

AM is American size the BC is the Ballistic co-efficient in case anyone wants to run it themselves

[kent]

+1

@kent

Do you think 1700fps of steel 6 is a good load? That extra speed is nothing. Maybe on really light game. I have always recommended above average shotsize.even in lead. I think there is too much emphasis on speed these days. I don't get that the fact people get fixated on one aspect of a shell. Then think by some miricle that 6 steel at 1700 is a wonderful shell when really its just a 6 tricked up. That 200fps gains yards if the pattern holds

 

The load quoted was 1350 fps, do I think 1700 fps no.6 steel a good load? dunno never tried it but seriously doubt it as its too much speed for the shot,. The main point is really we need to throw away a lot of what you know about lead and enter the steel shot age with an open mind. Do I think 1350 fps no.6 steel will kill a duck at 35 yds? Sure as heck will I have seen it with lesser loads.

Seriously and your doing it with this post above, stop equating lead ballistics with steel and treat it as a new venture. The slow and heavy maxim is one of lead, trying to match or even get near that that is crazy. Everything is turned on its head

[kent]

No,what has got us to this point, no pistols, no semi auto c/f.no lead for wildfowl,no guns for self protection,too many immigrants,petrol at £6+ a gallon,lack of capital punishment and lack of any punishment in schools is people like you saying I will bend over mr prime minister and you can stick it up my bottom again please.We should be saying stick your lead ban up your a*se we will not comply, otherwise we will lose everything piece by piece eventually.Can you imagine it lead banned, everyone using steel then the forestry people saying you cannot use steel because the steel shot is damaging circular saws and a steel ball when hit by a circular saw at 10000 rpm will come out of that wood faster than the shotgun put it in there,so that gets banned by health and safety where does it end? No shooting!!!

Geordie

 

Well I for one don't want to see lead banned, though perhaps you might want to watch that blood pressure ! Non- compliance isn't ever going to work and to do so now (were non toxic is already required by law) is totally unforgivable in my book as it gives great credence to the ban it brigade these actions will only see us "the shooters" as the bad people. I trust you vote and mention these other things that bother you to your MP. Thing is we cannot pick and choose what laws we obey and which we don't, how about if a dozen guys are against private shooting rights in law and decide to have a day on your place next week, believe me its a slippery slope if you start selecting laws you like and dislike

[Scully]

 

Well I for one don't want to see lead banned, though perhaps you might want to watch that blood pressure ! Non- compliance isn't ever going to work and to do so now (were non toxic is already required by law) is totally unforgivable in my book as it gives great credence to the ban it brigade these actions will only see us "the shooters" as the bad people. I trust you vote and mention these other things that bother you to your MP. Thing is we cannot pick and choose what laws we obey and which we don't, how about if a dozen guys are against private shooting rights in law and decide to have a day on your place next week, believe me its a slippery slope if you start selecting laws you like and dislike

I think the point he was trying to make (which seems to have been lost on you) is that 'we' shooters have allowed successive laws to become laws due to our apathy, indifference, whatever you want to call it. This doesn't just apply to individuals but to our organisations also, but that is a completely different topic.

Non-compliance is only detected where illegally lead shot game comes into the public food chain. Government, Police or whomever else you care to mention will have no idea what is shot with what unless each and every bird shot is examined forensically; that isn't going to happen. If/when there is a complete lead ban,even if it is faded out over time, some individuals will stock up and continue to shoot lead for as long as possible. No one is going to throw away their lead cartridges and there simply aren't the numbers to Police the matter. Even if we went down the livestock route of traceability of shot game, this would only apply to game shoots (almost all shoots which employ beaters and pickers up are now on record) and not individuals.

[wymberley]

Here is one for the small shot doubters

Number 6 steel AM BC .0164

 

Muzzle velocity 1375 fps at 35 yds 604 fps.

 

600 fps will kill the life out of most birds up to the size of a pheasant if it hits the vital zones. FT/LB energy although it bears some relevance is of less importance because T shot will not penetrate as deeply at 600 fps as the number 6 due to its larger surface area will though will hold a lot more kinetic energy at the same speed.

 

 

That said I prefer no.3 for duck and number 1 up for geese as I don't need lighter loads so I can get the required pellet count to fill my pattern with larger shot

 

 

Just saying STEEL ISNT LEAD and you need to open your mind to the possibilities. As posted people are safely using loads pushing 1500-1700 fps velocity has been the missing link in a lot of the early UK steel loads and has dented its reputation, this is mainly because of comparison with lead (the whole two shot size up although fair advice in general totally screwed our progression) however its time to move on because like it or not its the future and it aint all bleak it actually holds many advantages.

Just some figures; make of them what you will.

 

Steel shot, AM:

 

T at 613 fps and 6.9 ftlbs has an Energy Density of 167.5

6 at 598 fps and 0.9 ftlbs has an Energy Density of 74.4 and both of these started off at 1375 fps and you say that the No 6 will penetrate further. Just for info, an English No 2 lead matches the Energy Density of the AM T at 55 yards

 

Ballistic Coefficient (BC)

 

No 6 Steel AM is said to be 0.0164.

 

The BC of an English lead Size 'A' is 0.01679 and a No 5 is 0.01024.

 

If you give an AM Steel 6 a BC of ~ 0.009 and run it through a half decent programme, you'd get 668 fps at the 35 yards for your 1375 MV. Run that with a BC of 0.0164 and it seems the 600 is notched up at 75 yards.

 

Something is wrong there somewhere. Steel does work but you do it no favours at all by over playing its hand.

Edited December 23, 2013 by wymberley

[kent]

I think the point he was trying to make (which seems to have been lost on you) is that 'we' shooters have allowed successive laws to become laws due to our apathy, indifference, whatever you want to call it. This doesn't just apply to individuals but to our organisations also, but that is a completely different topic.

Non-compliance is only detected where illegally lead shot game comes into the public food chain. Government, Police or whomever else you care to mention will have no idea what is shot with what unless each and every bird shot is examined forensically; that isn't going to happen. If/when there is a complete lead ban,even if it is faded out over time, some individuals will stock up and continue to shoot lead for as long as possible. No one is going to throw away their lead cartridges and there simply aren't the numbers to Police the matter. Even if we went down the livestock route of traceability of shot game, this would only apply to game shoots (almost all shoots which employ beaters and pickers up are now on record) and not individuals.

So to sum up, its ok as long as you don't get caught? Yeah right

[kent]

Just some figures; make of them what you will.

 

Steel shot, AM:

 

T at 613 fps and 6.9 ftlbs has an Energy Density of 167.5

6 at 598 fps and 0.9 ftlbs has an Energy Density of 74.4 and both of these started off at 1375 fps and you say that the No 6 will penetrate further. Just for info, an English No 2 lead matches the Energy Density of the AM T at 55 yards

 

Ballistic Coefficient (BC)

 

No 6 Steel AM is said to be 0.0164.

 

The BC of an English lead Size 'A' is 0.01679 and a No 5 is 0.01024.

 

If you give an AM Steel 6 a BC of ~ 0.009 and run it through a half decent programme, you'd get 668 fps at the 35 yards for your 1375 MV. Run that with a BC of 0.0164 and it seems the 600 is notched up at 75 yards.

 

Something is wrong there somewhere. Steel does work but you do it no favours at all by over playing its hand.

What is wrong is you quoting and even thinking Energy. We need to look towards what speed each shot size requires to penetrate enough to reach the vitals. The bigger / heavier the ball the more surface area the more speed it needs and not forgetting larger heavier quarry giving more penetration depth being required. In practice though 1400 fps and a BBB will go clean through a Pinkfoot breast and out its back at 35 yds, I know coz I actually do it! No 3 will kill a Canada stone dead in the air at 50 yds but you need a lucky strike to the brain or neck to do it again I know because I have done it! Any other shot will be no greater than surface damage to the body

You are too wrapped up in energy I fear in all matters concerning lethality I have discussed this previously regards the Hornet ideas , lethality has a link to kintetic energy but ultimately if we step to one side for a minute it don't take 1750 ft lb to kill a Red deer it takes a bullet through the heart, Its just the same with steel shot- if it reaches the vitals of the duck it will kill that's just a medical fact! This is the reason the Military have used pigs and ballistic gels were developed to look at lethal damage, if was all about kinetic energy we should just lob heavy stuff. The energy of that number six at 35 yds is just 1.1 ft /lb ! now many of us who have been shot with a BB gun or Gat air pistol might laugh at that but think on because 600 fps will dive deep to do real damage in such a small projectile, again a contrast with surface area

 

I think you should dispute the figures quoted with the RSI in the states because that's were they are from, my own experiments are carried out in the field and to be fair its stacking up good once you forget what you already KNOW- I had too coz I am not paying out for mega cost non toxic, simply put I shoot too much of the stuff. The reason I quoted the BC? purely so you might dispute it "LOL" RSI can be contacted on (507) 356-8500 or PO box 1130, pine island, MN55963. Perhaps they need your talent in their lab?

 

We are lagging behind in this area I simply cannot credit why we cannot learn from those who have been at it for years.

 

Am a saying we should all go out after geese with number 6 steel? No but we should keep an open mind because all we have done in the UK in the time from the ban on wildfowl is waste time bemoaning the differences from lead. there are some who thought 1700 fps was not doable at the start of this thread and here I give a number 6 at 1350 fps that will kill duck. Why do you feel Eley are pushing into their lightning steel? - BECAUSE SPEED IS WERE ITS AT WITH STEEL! Impact speed and muzzle velocity. New components, powders and understanding is giving us what we needed a decade ago

 

Unfortunately due to its weight steel shot looses lethality a lot more sudden than lead, I noticed this when I paid too much attention to pattern I was hitting stuff but only getting kills from head / brain and neck strikes, no body damage and no penetration to the vitals. Choke the stuff as much as you wish, it don't help unless you have the speed when it arrives

[wymberley]

Re Post # 118 - we don't need to go through all that again.

 

As I said, here's some figures, make of it what you will. Steel works but you do it no favours if you overplay its hand.

 

If we can go back to my obsession with energy (don't think I am actually, just mentioned some figures along with the Energy Density figures - make of them what you will) and perhaps we could agree that some level at least is required and then we can put that to one side.

 

Now we can concentrate on speed. We need, obviously, to know how much of that is required. I notice that you have made absolutely no further reference to the Ballistic Coefficients (BCs). I would just remind you that it was you who initially mentioned this so you must consider it has some worth. To calculate these all important velocities (before we use this theoretical knowledge and turn it into practical empirical knowledge with experience in the field), the BC is critical to the calculation. How can you expect to 'bake the cake' if you've absolutely no idea on how to measure the ingredients? Or is it just that you yourself are obsessed with all things American and their steel is different to ours and their BCs are bigger and better?

[Guest cookoff013]

i also think the fact that steel needs to go fast. but thats the scale. WHAT IS FAST? thats the one single point that really bugs me.

any newcomers want faster and faster speeds. but really they just need faster than lead. the guys over in the states used to and still shoot 1200-1250fps loads all the time. its the standard big slow American shot. bigger shotsize, bigger payloads. etc.

 

in europe out loads are inherently faster, they always have been. are they better? no, just different.

 

then the mind set that American steel loads must be faster than old lead loads. but they only achieved 1400fps. (at muzzel.) only until the past few years ~7 are we seeing 1500fps and 1700fps. but those are the premium line loads.

 

i get asked all the time for reloads that do silly speeds. but usually the penalty is light shotcharges. ie 21gram loads going 17-1800fps.

 

no-one needs 1700fps loads.

 

i dont think you can argue too much at the performance of lots of big shot going fast enough will do the job. i see speed data all the time. i just dont get the point of shooting 1500fps #6 at wildfowl. pigeons yep. but ducks and geese? no.

 

the loads i`m talking about are the 24gram steel loads. what is the point of having 1600fps loads with almost no shot in them? even with the "advantage of higher pelletcount /oz"

 

over the 2 choices of 1oz #6 at 1500fps and 32g of #2 at 1400fps, i`ll take the 2s any day.

[Scully]

So to sum up, its ok as long as you don't get caught? Yeah right

I didn't say that, you just did. Again, you've missed the point. You seem to be of the opinion that the creation of law is a cure all for all ills and that's an end to it, I'm simply pointing out that this isn't so. Laws are broken by us all on a daily basis; I fail to see how a lead shot ban will be any different. Who will Police a lead shot ban?

[kent]

I didn't say that, you just did. Again, you've missed the point. You seem to be of the opinion that the creation of law is a cure all for all ills and that's an end to it, I'm simply pointing out that this isn't so. Laws are broken by us all on a daily basis; I fail to see how a lead shot ban will be any different. Who will Police a lead shot ban?

 

I certainly don't want the law in let me get that crystal clear. if it comes I shall obey it because any that don't risk further restrictions being enforced, this is just how things work now I am afraid. It seems your calling for better enforcement now as that is the answer to laws being disregarded, my aim is to do this within our ranks just like has been done in the Wildfowling clubs

[kent]

i also think the fact that steel needs to go fast. but thats the scale. WHAT IS FAST? thats the one single point that really bugs me.

any newcomers want faster and faster speeds. but really they just need faster than lead. the guys over in the states used to and still shoot 1200-1250fps loads all the time. its the standard big slow American shot. bigger shotsize, bigger payloads. etc.

 

in europe out loads are inherently faster, they always have been. are they better? no, just different.

 

then the mind set that American steel loads must be faster than old lead loads. but they only achieved 1400fps. (at muzzel.) only until the past few years ~7 are we seeing 1500fps and 1700fps. but those are the premium line loads.

 

i get asked all the time for reloads that do silly speeds. but usually the penalty is light shotcharges. ie 21gram loads going 17-1800fps.

 

no-one needs 1700fps loads.

 

i dont think you can argue too much at the performance of lots of big shot going fast enough will do the job. i see speed data all the time. i just dont get the point of shooting 1500fps #6 at wildfowl. pigeons yep. but ducks and geese? no.

 

the loads i`m talking about are the 24gram steel loads. what is the point of having 1600fps loads with almost no shot in them? even with the "advantage of higher pelletcount /oz"

 

over the 2 choices of 1oz #6 at 1500fps and 32g of #2 at 1400fps, i`ll take the 2s any day.

 

Yes lighter shot charges are fine as pellet count is up per weight view against lead, copying or increasing lead weights is just dumb and counter productive. I shouldn't argue with your last statement So should I as long as I wasn't shooting Teal and widgeon size duck at shorter ranges, all said and done a widgeon compares to a pigeon in size more than it does a Mallard or Pintail. My point is people are constantly told not to use number 5 or 6 steel but actually there are certain scenarios or reasons they should. There is not a single ball of number 6 steel in my house but I have sat there and seen it work in a slower factory load, my longest ever Shotgunned rabbit fell to number 5 steel, the only reason I tried it was I thought I was packing 36 grm of lead no5- lets say it was an eye opener just like when I shot crows under the same circumstances thinking the same

By your recommendations no.2 steel is a bit too small for Greylag because they are considerably bigger than any duck by four or five times yet its been slaying them pretty well for me in the ten gauge and also in the 12 but this time on Canadas (even bigger geese) at range. So going up in size needs to be in context.

All I say and recommend is an open mind and a little more field testing

 

Fast? is 1400 fps in factory or over

[kent]

Re Post # 118 - we don't need to go through all that again.

 

As I said, here's some figures, make of it what you will. Steel works but you do it no favours if you overplay its hand.

 

If we can go back to my obsession with energy (don't think I am actually, just mentioned some figures along with the Energy Density figures - make of them what you will) and perhaps we could agree that some level at least is required and then we can put that to one side.

 

Now we can concentrate on speed. We need, obviously, to know how much of that is required. I notice that you have made absolutely no further reference to the Ballistic Coefficients (BCs). I would just remind you that it was you who initially mentioned this so you must consider it has some worth. To calculate these all important velocities (before we use this theoretical knowledge and turn it into practical empirical knowledge with experience in the field), the BC is critical to the calculation. How can you expect to 'bake the cake' if you've absolutely no idea on how to measure the ingredients? Or is it just that you yourself are obsessed with all things American and their steel is different to ours and their BCs are bigger and better?

 

Actually I knew you would run it, there is more to it than BC like the spherical form factor? Anyway its beyond me, perhaps you should read their work? Personally I can find more out on the marsh killing Duck and its a heap more fun and you get to cut them up and see rather than stare at a calculator. There is different steel types available but that a whole new thing to look at another time.

I hope you get the point I made about the deer and kinetic energy, that sums up my own view

Edited December 23, 2013 by kent

[Towngun]

The anti lead debate is in fact an anti shooting debate and one that should be fought. I read a letter in the shooting press about a Dr warning a patient that they picked up some lead shot following an MRI scan but had it been steel shot ingested from game meat then the MRI scan may well have killed him! The “magnetic” field from the scan affects steel and some metals (not lead) and therefore can cause any metal inside your body to move as it is attracted to the “magnetic” field, with potentially fatal consequences! This is why it's important to tell your radiographer (a health professional trained to perform imaging procedures) if you haveany metal in your body. Of course anyone who has eaten wildfowl and ingested steel shot would be unaware of this and so would not be able to disclose this fact and avoid this potentially fatal health risk.

 

Thus is it better for a duck to ingest lead or a human to ingest steel?