Alanl50 Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Loft and rafter fixings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darno Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Loft and rafter fixingsWas just gonna suggest that too! Although I lived in a rented house that we were not allowed access to the loft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 I would check with your FLO. A farmer friend in Kent was told that loft rafter fixings,or gun clamps, would not be permitted , only a cabinet would suffice. Although I am sure there is a definitive law somewhere, it does seem that every County has its own interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 I meant rafter fittings for your gun cabinet, I used this system some years ago in another property, perfectly ok, Suffolk Police were fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 And no doubt when his chief constable, quite understandably, refuses to accept his security arrangements and revokes his license he will be able to use the new BASC legal cover to fund his appeal. Why would his FAC be revoked for complying with the security condition? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 I would check with your FLO. A farmer friend in Kent was told that loft rafter fixings,or gun clamps, would not be permitted , only a cabinet would suffice. Although I am sure there is a definitive law somewhere, it does seem that every County has its own interpretation. The definitive law is the condition on your certificate. As long as you comply with it then you are fine. There is NO specific type of security that you must employ. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 The definitive law is the condition on your certificate. As long as you comply with it then you are fine. There is NO specific type of security that you must employ. J. TEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 TEH ?? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 I lived in a rented bungalow for nearly a year, the construction was flimsy wooden frame and I didn't want to bolt anything to it and then have to re-decorate afterwards so I used a stand-alone safe. It was checked and cleared for rifles and shotguns, it does weigh 900+ kg though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 ?? J. I suspect, quite simply, that despite what is written on the front of our certificate, the final say on what is deemed acceptable, for a given applicants security rests with the chief constable. Only the naive would suggest that chief constables do not have the power to determine what security arrangements they deem fit for their policing area and if they decide that force policy will be a minimum of a clamp for a single shotgun and a cabinet for anything else then so be it. This is totally within their remit and there is nothing one can do about it other than challenge such a decision in court. Do you really think that any court in the land is going to find against the police for insisting that certificate holders comply with what has become the universal minimum security arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 I suspect, quite simply, that despite what is written on the front of our certificate, the final say on what is deemed acceptable, for a given applicants security rests with the chief constable. Only the naive would suggest that chief constables do not have the power to determine what security arrangements they deem fit for their policing area and if they decide that force policy will be a minimum of a clamp for a single shotgun and a cabinet for anything else then so be it. This is totally within their remit and there is nothing one can do about it other than challenge such a decision in court. Do you really think that any court in the land is going to find against the police for insisting that certificate holders comply with what has become the universal minimum security arrangement. The post I responded to stated that certain methods of security were legally mandated which is not true. The police have to power to decide that they are happy with your particular security arrangements but they can't, and usually don't, set blanket requirements. The police never say that "you must have a cabinet of a particular type or we won't grant" because they can't. If you want to turn your cellar into a gun room then you are perfectly entitled to and I can't see that any court would back the police up on an insistence that you had a cabinet when it simply isn't necessary. A cabinet has not become the universal minimum requirement. It is generally accepted that the level of security which a cabinet provides is the minimum but that is not quite the same thing. You can achieve that level in any manner you see fit it's just that a cabinet is usually the quickest and cheapest way to do it. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 J Of course one can have a gun room, no one is saying you can't. This thread is all about minimum requirements. Squirm and twist all you like but it won't alter the fact that if you are told you should install a cabinet there ain't a lot you can do about it and you may as well bite the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 J Of course one can have a gun room, no one is saying you can't. This thread is all about minimum requirements. Squirm and twist all you like but it won't alter the fact that if you are told you should install a cabinet there ain't a lot you can do about it and you may as well bite the bullet. Once again, that wasn't the point I was making. I was commenting on the incorrect statement that a cabinet was a legal requirement. It isn't. It may seem pedantic to some but this stuff is important, I believe. Shooters should correctly know the law and how it works. If someone makes an untrue statement of law then it should be corrected or it will become accepted as being true. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 Once again, that wasn't the point I was making. I was commenting on the incorrect statement that a cabinet was a legal requirement. It isn't. It may seem pedantic to some but this stuff is important, I believe. Shooters should correctly know the law and how it works. If someone makes an untrue statement of law then it should be corrected or it will become accepted as being true. J. What type of cabinet do you use? Mine is bolted to a 9 inch wall with 6 x12mm stainless fixings!! TEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 Once again, that wasn't the point I was making. I was commenting on the incorrect statement that a cabinet was a legal requirement. It isn't. It may seem pedantic to some but this stuff is important, I believe. Shooters should correctly know the law and how it works. If someone makes an untrue statement of law then it should be corrected or it will become accepted as being true. J. It was this that I was referring to: Posted Today, 11:51 AM Cranfield, on 25 Dec 2013 - 7:56 PM, said: I would check with your FLO. A farmer friend in Kent was told that loft rafter fixings,or gun clamps, would not be permitted , only a cabinet would suffice. Although I am sure there is a definitive law somewhere, it does seem that every County has its own interpretation. The definitive law is the condition on your certificate. As long as you comply with it then you are fine. There is NO specific type of security that you must employ. J. For you to suggest that all that is needed is to comply with that condition without giving some form of guidance as to what is accepted compliance is unhelpful. At a minimum you should have made reference to the Firearms Security Handbook. I don't think anyone has suggested that the law states that a cabinet must be used, as obviously there are other acceptable means to secure firearms. What I and others are saying is that ones own security arrangements must pass muster with ones own CC, many of whom insist on a gun clamp or cabinet as a minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 The definitive law is the condition on your certificate. As long as you comply with it then you are fine. There is NO specific type of security that you must employ. J. The requirement on my SGC is that they have to, "be stored securely". The Kent FLO for our area says this must be in a cabinet. Do I want to argue the matter to the House of Lords ? ......................No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 The theory is one thing, but who would want to embark on a battle with the FLO and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 The post I responded to stated that certain methods of security were legally mandated which is not true. The police have to power to decide that they are happy with your particular security arrangements but they can't, and usually don't, set blanket requirements. The police never say that "you must have a cabinet of a particular type or we won't grant" because they can't. If you want to turn your cellar into a gun room then you are perfectly entitled to and I can't see that any court would back the police up on an insistence that you had a cabinet when it simply isn't necessary. A cabinet has not become the universal minimum requirement. It is generally accepted that the level of security which a cabinet provides is the minimum but that is not quite the same thing. You can achieve that level in any manner you see fit it's just that a cabinet is usually the quickest and cheapest way to do it. J. Just a thought… A guy applies for his sgc, and is tortured with the wait for his interview… During this time he starts reading through shooting forums… Finally a phone call to arrange his interview…. After doing his home work from reading through the forums, he cleans the house, buy’s a selection of chocolate biscuits and waits for the door bell to ring… With the paper work all squared away the feo asks can I have a look at your gun securiy please. So the guy takes him to it…The feo looks and raises an eyebrow… What made you put that in…? The guy nervously replies well I read up on the forums and one person stood out as he seemed to know what he was talking about… Oh replies the feo…..I will call back when you have found some better advice… TEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 The requirement on my SGC is that they have to, "be stored securely". The Kent FLO for our area says this must be in a cabinet. Do I want to argue the matter to the House of Lords ? ......................No. Have the police said this to you in person? I mean, they've actually said that only a cabinet and nothing else is acceptable as secure storage? I find it difficult to belive, to be honest. If you wanted to build a gun room or similar that was as secure as a cabinet they would not insist on a cabinet simply on the grounds of policy. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 The theory is one thing, but who would want to embark on a battle with the FLO and why? I genuinely don't believe that there would be a battle over something like this. The police are usually quite reasonable about these sorts of things. If they were being unreasonable then there are sensible reasons for challenging it. There are situations where a cabinet is not appropriate. Someone with a lot of firearms may quite reasaonable wish to have a gun room rather than several cabinets. I nearly went down that route when we last moved but dicided against it for various reasons. I never thought that it would not be acceptable but would have certainly challenged it unless there were good reasons for refusing it. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 Just a thought A guy applies for his sgc, and is tortured with the wait for his interview During this time he starts reading through shooting forums Finally a phone call to arrange his interview. After doing his home work from reading through the forums, he cleans the house, buys a selection of chocolate biscuits and waits for the door bell to ring With the paper work all squared away the feo asks can I have a look at your gun securiy please. So the guy takes him to itThe feo looks and raises an eyebrow What made you put that in? The guy nervously replies well I read up on the forums and one person stood out as he seemed to know what he was talking about Oh replies the feo..I will call back when you have found some better advice TEH What on earth has that got to do with the post you are replying to? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 Like with most things there is guidance, the guidance is available for a gun room, specs for the door, alarms and other measures your less likely to be able to get a landlord to allow a gun room than they are a cabinet...... Funny thing is when the police attempt a "raid" they curse the criminals who have installed decent security that defeats the big red keys they favours.... All shown on cheap TV shows one was particularly funny as they where hammering away at a door that was similar to the spec and getting nowhere! They tried round the back and where's met with barred and grilled windows.... What ever you are securing and whatever reason the standards are similar be it a drug lab or legitimate firearms.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 What on earth has that got to do with the post you are replying to? J. The thing is J...you only type and that is all you do.... So have you been shooting lately or are you to busy typing replies with nothing to back up what you type about.... I base my post's and reply's on my practical shooting experiences of 40 years... So J, you vast wealth of knowledge must come from some where...just where is the question. TEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 The thing is J...you only type and that is all you do.... So have you been shooting lately or are you to busy typing replies with nothing to back up what you type about.... I base my post's and reply's on my practical shooting experiences of 40 years... So J, you vast wealth of knowledge must come from some where...just where is the question. TEH And here we go again; resorting to personal abuse. This is yet another thread where you are posting nothing of relevance. Rather than simply posting abuse, how about actually writing something relevant to what is being discussed? To re-ask you; how is what you posted relevant to the post you replied to? I'm genuinely interested as I can't see it. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 Jonathan - the only person I see resorting to abuse is :- I find it difficult to belive, to be honest. I find that offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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