bobby t Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 is there anyone out there that can tell me if a miroku / browning gun would be too chunky and lifeless, compared to a beretta for my 16yr old son, of average build, for clays mainly, cosidering a MK38 or a beretta 686E, but Just have a little thing for hating berettas, any poions would be much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 no problem at all, my personal thoughts for clays a browning is a great platform to use, reliable solid action, great tubes being backbored over the berreta will give your son a little more releif in recoil, that being said select your cartriges well and there should be no worries anyway, i have a number of Brownings and Berretas and shoot many comp's in the cource of a year, my preference in choosing Browning over Berreta are founded through my own experience with visual awareness of others in the same league, all the makes you mention are good quality guns, have your son try as many as possible before commiting to one, this would include any service and parts backup, its a matter of personal preference and word of mouth in a lot of aspects but again ive seen guys break 80% plus running an old $150 ruger red label as a man with a $8,000 Perrazi, good luck in your choice and rule nothing out without trial. hope this helps Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08shooter Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 id have the miroku first but thats just my opinion see what fits him best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisv Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Bobby, They're both great guns, but a lot of people like one or the other and not both. The MK38 is usually described using terms like "living legend" or "the cheapest championship standard gun available" so don't ignore it just because it's a bit heavy in the action. The fixed choke ones might be a bit more lively, but I would guess a multichoke would keep its value better. As VS29 says, see if you can try them both and find which suits him. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invector Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I use a Miroku MK38 Grade 5, Teague. Swapped the Teague chokes for standard Invector Plus. Best gun I ever owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisv Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 Invector, Why dump the Teagues? Handling, looks, choke constriction? I had wondered if this would be a good move if the Teagues added too much foreward weight. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 I have fairly small hands and didn't find the Brownings as comfortable to hold as my Beretta. They are much too bulky for me. I'd let him try both before deciding though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Invector,Why dump the Teagues? Handling, looks, choke constriction? I had wondered if this would be a good move if the Teagues added too much foreward weight. Chris you'll probably find the teauges he dropped were lighter than the inv+ tubes, if your aware of any differing swing weight you gotta be super sensative chris, there wont be anything to talk of, many guys get used to certain tubes, i like the teagues but think there over priced, my inv+ ext work as good if not better, my berretas run mobile and optima, they work again better than any after market tube ive put in them. chokes are a thing of wonder, the'll screw up your day as quick as a flash, personal preference's change and the tube giants get richer for it, find the oneyour happy with (pattern and spread ) buy a few so as not to be with out and forget it. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invector Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 the last engineer, Well said! Not being a choke tart, I didn't think the Teagues would necessarily improve anything. There are many other factors involved, after the primer is detonated. I didn't want a lump of extended choke at the end of the barrels and, although I could have bought flush fitting Teagues, I wasn't sure that the friction-fit key was a feasible way to tighten chokes. I'd heard of sticking chokes being difficult to remove, without the normal slots to obtain a purchase. I've always got on well with Invector and Invector Plus chokes and I see no reason to use anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 dumping the teagues love my teagues, improoved the pattern no end over standard invector. not tried a cartridge yet that didnt pattern better through extended teagues than invectors. only own 2 chokes as well so it stops me playing with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invector Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 It's all in your mind mate. Incidentally did you see the test BASC did with 20 bore cartridges? Ask anyone and they will tell you that plastic wads give tighter patterns than fibre. Not what BASC found, the fibre wads threw tighter patterns than plastic, in the majority of their tests. There is a lot more going on down the barrel than a Teague choke can influence but, if you believe it can, then good luck to you. Perhaps you would like to tell us how you arrived at the conclusion that your Teagues were better than Invector Plus? What ranges did you shoot at? How many cartridges did you use? Which cartridges did you use? Did you count every pellet in the 30 inch circle? Were there any anomalies? Or are you just guessing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 There are very few bad chokes around. Nothing like a choke debate to get the pot boiling. I think that generally Teague are regarded as world leaders, but whether they justify the expense of changing from standard, is another matter. My only genuine reservation about chokes (leaving aside the doubt in your mind as to whether you chose the right one) is how tight to tighten them. Always worried about damaging threads. Has anyone ever overtightened them, ruining the thread and the barrel?? Interested to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 It's pretty nigh on impossible to over tighten any sort of screw in choke and mess up your barrels, the biggest danger with the flush fitting Teague type chokes is getting them stuck in the barrels by leaving them in for too long, 'cos they can then be a sod to remove. I would advise using proper choke lube by Briley or similar on the threads, as they are a lot easier to remove if well lubricated on the way in. As for choke changing, Invector doesn't shoot clays so his comments about not changing chokes only apply to live Pigeons, and I'd have to agree with him on that one, I would use 1/4 & 3/8 fixed choke for all my live Pigeon shooting, but for us mere mortal clay shooters, who miss a few now and again, it can be a definite advantage to open or tighten the pattern as required. I liken it to a set of 14 Golf clubs, you choose the club you prefer to play that particular shot, I certainly wouldn't like to play Golf with only one club in the bag. And before somebody says "Faulds & Digweed shoot fixed choke guns", I say that this only applies to your average shot, who needs all the help he can get to break the target. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 My only genuine reservation about chokes (leaving aside the doubt in your mind as to whether you chose the right one) is how tight to tighten them. Always worried about damaging threads. Has anyone ever overtightened them, ruining the thread and the barrel?? Interested to hear. the only way to make sure is to remove/breakfree after every trip out, the worst thing people do is to retighten after shooting a bunch of rounds through, everything is hot and expanded, tighten then when the gun and tubes/muzzles cool down guess what, instant lockup. the other favorite habit in ruining tubes is over lubeing, the tube will hydraulic when fired with to much oil or grease, this in turn deforms the tube ( makes out of round/ distorts ) then when removing excesive wear and damage can be done to the muzzle threads, i personaly tighten finger tight, its enough dont crank them in you'll have to realy crank them out, again over loading the thread flanks, use a dry lube and no ammount of deforming will ever happen. as said just my opinions, you want to buy extras all the time go right ahead, im not paying for it. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby t Posted January 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 the way i would look at it is that most standard choke tubes are not as good as some aftermarket tubes, however i do think that a fixed choke does take all the guessing and frustration out of the equation it gives you one less tthing to worry about. most people won't get much effect from changing choke if i shot a multi choke it would be half and half my gun is 1/4 3/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Perhaps you would like to tell us how you arrived at the conclusion that your Teagues were better than Invector Plus? What ranges did you shoot at? How many cartridges did you use? Which cartridges did you use? Did you count every pellet in the 30 inch circle? Were there any anomalies? Or are you just guessing? it was at west kent shooting schools pattern plate, i tried mainly 30yards i believe it was. The extended teagues showed a significantly larger pattern than non extended invectors, this pattern was even spread with a very low amount of flying pellets (very good patterns considering all carts were fibre wad) i tried, blue diamond (my old choice) hull chevrons (patterned poorly) and a number of others. Since then every cartridge ive decided to use in bulk (currently hull comp x and intercomp) have been shot on hte pattern plate to make sure they pattern well. And consistantly the teagues throw a large and better distributed pattern than invectors. The invectors tend to throw a very tight pattern with more 'flyers' from the pattern. I like technical advantages (helps make up for a lack of ability ) so i did do my homework before coming to these conclusions. Yes i do use fibre wads... most of my club shoots insist on it, so its not worth having two cartridges for the sake of a few other shoots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invector Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 The choking of a shotgun is a minor part of the total action from firing to hitting the target. Apparently even using a cartridge in a chamber that is too long for the cartridge can reduce pattern densities by 20%. With many shotguns having 3" chambers this could be a factor. Other variables are: Fibre wads or plastic Short or long forcing cones Back boring. Browning claim recoil reduced by 6%; higher velocities; better impact and increased penetration; plus improved shot pattern. This is before we come to the choke so, even if I was a clay shooter, I would resist compulsive choke changing. The proper method of checking patterns is at a pattern plate, using a minimum of 12 cartridges, and preferably 20. Even then it is well known that chokes often don't throw the pattern they are marked with. A minefield I'm happy to avoid. I'm sure the live quarry I'm shooting don't give a damn what choke I'm using!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 just to add a little more, having spent a fair amount of time in patterning with a lot of guns and tubes, i would say taking an i/c tube or mod at face value is wrong off the bat, you realy need to look at bore size to restriction given, eg most chokes run degrees of restriction in .005" ( 5 one thousandths of an inch) from open or cylinder through extra full and beyond, its quite common to have an O/U SxS with tow different bore diameters, as i have posted before knowing your bore give you edge to knowing what choke to use for effect. effective patterning is done over 15 -20yds max , i think your stretching the limits Nick, i'm not going to put it down because i havent tried it that far, but i have had productive and consistent results using 15-20 you know where i stand on teagues and many other tubes, they make a great aftermarket add-on, i would not put down any standard tubes supplied with any gun without first testing, bore gauge, bore gauge, find what you have and you will find where you can go, i run teagues as well as my ext brownings, absolutly no difference between them in my brownings (4) in my berretas its a different story, smaller bores greater restrictions through multiple tubes again optima run great , mobile were fine but i have replaced for ext now (briley). thisis one ofthose topics that will never end, as has benn said by others its a mind game, me i like to think i know my mind better than guess work . Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 just to add a little more, having spent a fair amount of time in patterning with a lot of guns and tubes, i would say taking an i/c tube or mod at face value is wrong off the bat, you realy need to look at bore size to restriction given, eg most chokes run degrees of restriction in .005" ( 5 one thousandths of an inch) from open or cylinder through extra full and beyond, its quite common to have an O/U SxS with tow different bore diameters, as i have posted before knowing your bore give you edge to knowing what choke to use for effect. effective patterning is done over 15 -20yds max , i think your stretching the limits Nick, i'm not going to put it down because i havent tried it that far, but i have had productive and consistent results using 15-20 you know where i stand on teagues and many other tubes, they make a great aftermarket add-on, i would not put down any standard tubes supplied with any gun without first testing, bore gauge, bore gauge, find what you have and you will find where you can go, i run teagues as well as my ext brownings, absolutly no difference between them in my brownings (4) in my berretas its a different story, smaller bores greater restrictions through multiple tubes again optima run great , mobile were fine but i have replaced for ext now (briley). thisis one ofthose topics that will never end, as has benn said by others its a mind game, me i like to think i know my mind better than guess work . Martin i honestly havent got a clue how far it was, i thought it was 30yards, but i shot from where the fella stood me i did certainly notice the difference between standard non extended invector (not invector +) and the extended teagues. And even if there is little pracitcal difference (which im still convinced there is) it makes a difference in my head, making me think i have an advantage, so its always good for your shooting if your working on a positive. Talking of which, i really must get out and shoot. Was supposed to be today in PE but it was blowing a bit, so decided not to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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