scotslad Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Alright folks Just wanting a quick bit of advice. Just been up picking a lab pup (sired by my older lab), i had pick of the 4 dogs in the litter and my mate came up a picked his dog pup too. First time i've ever had the pick off litter usually only 1 or 2 left and they've all turned out to be decent dogs so wether it makes much difference or is just pure luck. The pup which i decided on and was the most attentive etc turns out to be the only pup with a hernia (been at vets and all checked out, all ok but will need an op later in life), even after noticing it had the hernia it is/was still the dog that got my attention now i know it is fairly common in pups and not worried about it health wise, but more thinking down the line if the dogs is good enough to breed with. Should i go back and change my pup choice? Still got a choice of 3, think someone else going this wknd to pick another male, so really should be quick. 1 off the ones left is a right wee fatty and had just ate as well as being wormed so his belly was very full so wasn't as mobile, but he is fairly fat for his age does that make any difference long term? Cheers in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben0850 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I'm sure other lads will be more knowledgable than me but I've always gone with my gut instinct. My young lab and most of our sheepdogs (8 in total) are the runt of their respective litters as they have often seemed the brightest. Do you have a good relationship with your vet? Can you speak to them for some advice with regards to the Hernia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorianbuilders Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Cost of the hernia op isn't that expensive the cost of the anaesthetic is what puts cost up, I had similar with a bitch pup and stuck with my choice. If your going to have it done get it done at 12 months when you'll get it hip scored. Its not necessarily hereditary it can be caused from an over enthusiastic mother chewing the cord. Good luck Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I had a hernia when small,but it was operated on, i went on to be fairly well trained and sired a couple of offspring that have been champions in their field,so i wouldn't worry to much,get the one that your heart says. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Cheers folks for advice so far. At the moment my head and gut are 50/50 wot i should do. Must admit head is beggininng to come out in front thou, thinking about nipping up the morro after the shoot and changing my choice. Know the vets pretty well so probably is a good call, thinking no point in taking a pup on knowing the time and effort to train it to a decent standard knowing i probably would never bred with it. Althou to be fair if i wanted to breed could use my mates dog which will be a litter brother, but jist isn't the same if know wot i mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Not always congenital but many seem to follow family lines. I believe bitches chewing cords is over-used as an excuse by breeders for selling puppies with congenital abnormalities. If you are buying a dog and intend to possibly breed from it, then DO NOT buy one with a hernia. If you are buying the dog as a pet then it makes no difference, although if I was purchasing such a puppy I'd negotiate a discount. Many umbilical hernias don't require surgical correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 As apache says pretty much, I see the hernia as the breeders issue who ever its sold to, in place of stud fee makes no odds to this. How does the breeder see it? I cannot see that one pup passing on this type of fault personally as there are so many factors in the development etc. Though a male dog to me personally is only a potential stud dog, so many more hurdles to pass before that decision is made way down the line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postie Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 My cocker birch has a hernia didn't notice when I got her Went to see vet for her 10week jab and vet said they would operate the following week When I went back the senior vet told me there was no need to operate that the hole in the stomach had closed up and the lump was some fatty tissue that was left behind and was perfectly fine He said if he could have pushed the lump back in thro the hole he would have had to done the operation She's 15 weeks now The gent I got her from said I could have another pick or he would pay for operation or give me my money back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 That's probably because he knew it had a hernia when he sold it to you, assuming it's docked most would be checked over at the same time. Some are just unfortunate and down to an enthusiastic bitch but not necessarily. Personally I would choose another but then I am not convinced you can really pick the best pup at 8 weeks and have any idea it's the best one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Likewise I am not convinced either but I know perhaps the most dominant name in gundogs thinks he can, who am I to doubt him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postie Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 I don't think he New but who knows All pups were docked dew clawed and micro chipped,vacation. So the vet mist it too and I had first pick of 6 Just bad luck maybe he's phoned twice and taking her up to See him tomorrow to see how she's coming on that's great after sales for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Aye cheers folks, I've deceided to pick another. While breeding is not really that important to me and like a few have said there is a long long way to go and plenty off hurdles to overcome before even thinking about using him to breed, there is nothing worse than having a really good dog and wanting to breed of it knowing u shouldn't (got that with my springer been asked a few times about using him at stud but got an undescended testicle, still got an external 1 but i won't use him which is a real shame, 1 off the best grouse dog's i've seen) Is there much actually known about the genetics of hermia's? Is it dominant or reccessine? Or is their so mant potential cuases both genetic and otherwise? Wot i'm thinking is should any off that liter really be bred from as in theory as they all have potentailly the same mix of genes (1 out of 8 has it) but all or none or anything inbetween of the others could potentially be carriers if it is genetic. Heard off 1 stud dog last summer that had 2 litters one with 8 hernia's out of 9 pups and another with 4 or 5 out of 8 pups, as well as having some with undeshot jaws Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 There is little known about the heritability of such things - it seems to be a combination of the dog and bitch's genes. I too have seen litters with multiple affected puppies. You could argue the others in the litter may be carriers, but not affected. Realistically not breeding from affected animals is about the best we can do. (incidentally your dog with a retained testicle needs castrating - there is a very high chance of the retained testicle turning cancerous and killing the dog) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Cheers apache, He's had the retained 1 taken out but they left his other 1, weren't overly happy about it but i didn't want it affecting his drive or anything as was looking like a cracking young dog. And has turned into a cracker but may well still have been even if fully carsrated. Cheers again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Cryptorchidism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptorchidism#Dogs Cheers apache, He's had the retained 1 taken out but they left his other 1, weren't overly happy about it but i didn't want it affecting his drive or anything as was looking like a cracking young dog. And has turned into a cracker but may well still have been even if fully carsrated. Cheers again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 I done a fair bit off reading about it at the time, some off older trainers i spoke too said they have bred from them with no problems and also never bothered cutting their undescended ball off either and never got cancer Also read a bit on the net (wether true or not, i don't know) but reckon there could be 2 types 1 genetic where the tube is not long enough for ball to descend the body which should not be bred from, 2nd puppy has had a knock or something which stopped it dropping. intheory when the vet operates to remove the ball if it looks like the tube is long enough u possibly may bred from it as not genetic. In the end he got operated on a bit sooner than i expected or really wanted to as he had to be knocked out anyway to give a scratched eye a double check and a bit of a rub so i just got vet to take the 1 off while he was out, wasn't dear either so well worth it for piece off mind. He's been a cracking big dog for me and quite unusaul for a springer nowadays being the same height/wieght as my labs about 30kg of muscle, and much as i'd love to breed or ideally clone him, not worth it when i would be keeping a pup or 2 for myself and no doubt a few mates would also take a pup too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Breeding from a cryptorchid dog is irresponsible - there is much better evidence that the conditions is inherited. I would never agree to remove just the one testicle. I have seen cancerous testicles and I know of cases of testicular torsion of the retained testicle. There are lots of good dogs out there, irresponsible breeding of animals that are showing signs of a possibly inherited condition should not be bred from. Period. I don't doubt for a second there are all sorts of people who seem to have 'got away with it'. It doesn't make it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Ur quite right Apache i have no intention of breeding with him, and i have been asked about it a few times. A lot of things were done by some of the old time breeders that would not be reguarded as good practice now. I know the vets fairly well and offered to take my KC paperwork in so they could write on it Not to be bred with or something like that or put a condition on with the KC head office (not even sure if u can do that thou). So i take it the length of tube thing is just complete internet b *****ks then? I was trying to do as much reading around the subject as possible but u don't know wot to trust on the net, and althou i trust my vet and realise they have spent 7 years at uni was just trying to read up about it a bit. I thought it sounded feasible that it could have a pyhsical? element as well as genetic just like herenias could be both genetic and caused by the bitch Don't worry i can assure u i won't be breeding from it as it will be me keeping pups so no point introducing a defect to ur own/future dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Breeding from a cryptorchid dog is irresponsible - there is much better evidence that the conditions is inherited. I would never agree to remove just the one testicle. I have seen cancerous testicles and I know of cases of testicular torsion of the retained testicle. There are lots of good dogs out there, irresponsible breeding of animals that are showing signs of a possibly inherited condition should not be bred from. Period. I don't doubt for a second there are all sorts of people who seem to have 'got away with it'. It doesn't make it right. Yet a dog castrated early lacks testosterone in its development does it not? Surely leaving it a Womble is better than removing both early? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 You don't need to castrate them early. I am quite happy letting them reaching full adult size. The theory is the testicle is designed to run at below body temperature and prolonged exposure (years) to core body temperature can cause changes than can lead to cancer. It would be great if the Kennel Club took some initiative and did prohibit the registration of puppies from such dogs. They are slowly coming round to things. We are now supposed to report bitch caesareans done on registered dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) It would be great if the Kennel Club took some initiative and did prohibit the registration of puppies from such dogs. They are slowly coming round to things. We are now supposed to report bitch caesareans done on registered dogs. As a breeder you can put restrictions on future registration of pups from any pup that you've bred. Easy to do in the hernia situation as it's obvious when a pup is 8 weeks old. Am I correct in saying that it's not as easy in the case of the undescended testicle? How long can it take for both to drop? Sadly, the unscrupulous will still bred from dogs that have health problems, they just sell them without papers. Edited January 22, 2014 by PERCE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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